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Author Topic: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?  (Read 32043 times)
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August 27, 2013, 07:27:49 AM
 #41


I did read the entire thread, and if you are wondering what I mean by respect you need only to refer to your last post. Thanks Smiley

Then you should also read that I have written, he needs to prove that his site is 100% provably fair and I will remove my negative feedback.


Ps: My last post was https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3014004#msg3014004
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August 27, 2013, 07:36:58 AM
 #42

Oh come on, that is just childish.
90% chance win, 10% chance loss.
1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.
Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Can you prove that his site is provably fair? and i didn't got lost money due to his server seed thingy. If you can, please do now, otherwise please mind your own business.
Oh and his site isn't the first site where I did betting or lost/won money.
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August 27, 2013, 07:43:26 AM
 #43

Oh come on, that is just childish.
90% chance win, 10% chance loss.
1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.
Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Can you prove that his site is provably fair? and i didn't got lost money due to his server seed thingy. If you can, please do now, otherwise please mind your own business.
Oh and his site isn't the first site where I did betting or lost/won money.


This is a forum. I'll speak where I would like to.
Can I prove his site is 100% provably fair? No, nor do I really care. When I play a game in any casino i am prepared for losses. I get the idea behind it however, and support the provably fair world. There are many people however that have won a good amount of btc on primedice. I've won myself. So if anyone is suggesting there is foul play involved then they must actually choose which people they wish to fuck over.

Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.

Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day Smiley

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August 27, 2013, 08:02:57 AM
 #44

Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.
Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day Smiley

Do you know Trust system is there for a reason and I am free to use it and if stunna was a good guy he should have posted proofs already in this thread that his site is fair. (Look at the original date of this thread).


Ps: I'm not the only guy who thinks his site is not fair.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711
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August 27, 2013, 08:19:49 AM
 #45

I don't know server seed

You're not supposed to know the secret until later. The server seed changes and it is publicly displayed in front of you before you bet. You can also change the client seed, and it allows a large enough number of values that don't compute to any range of numbers you think the site can focus on. And even if it did, you simply bet high instead of low or the other way around.

The secret has been committed since the start of the day.

The server seed has been committed since your last roll. You can see it.

Client seed is something you can change. High or Low roll is something you can pick.

Providing your own randomly generated string guarantees that PD can not be able to precompute an image that results to a loss.

Add those all up and tell me it is not fair? The site does not even care how much your bet is. The roll is determined on the seeds alone.

Quote
I also don't know what was the client seed when I played that game and frankly i don't know how to verify them.

And it's their fault you don't know what client seed you used?

Provably Fair Gaming means you can verify each bet to ensure you always get a fair deal. Modern cryptographic algorithms such as the SHA512 hash algorithm computes the fair random number.

What you think and believe in, may not coincide with the mathematical certainty right in front of your eyes, but if a 1 in 2^512 odds of the calculation being computed wrong or having an intentional collision isn't good enough for you, I don't know what is.

I've played enough of all the dice sites combined to personally see 7 losses in a row on 90%.

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August 27, 2013, 08:37:15 AM
 #46

You're not supposed to know the secret until later. The server seed changes and it is publicly displayed in front of you before you bet. You can also change the client seed, and it allows a large enough number of values that don't compute to any range of numbers you think the site can focus on. And even if it did, you simply bet high instead of low or the other way around.

The secret has been committed since the start of the day.

The server seed has been committed since your last roll. You can see it.

Client seed is something you can change. High or Low roll is something you can pick.

Providing your own randomly generated string guarantees that PD can not be able to precompute an image that results to a loss.

Add those all up and tell me it is not fair? The site does not even care how much your bet is. The roll is determined on the seeds alone.

I said I don't know server seed because i played that game 2 days ago and it's not on "My Bets" now.

And it's their fault you don't know what client seed you used?

Yes it's their fucking fault because i didn't generated that client/server seed, I'm not a pro gambler that changes seeds etc on every bet.


Provably Fair Gaming means you can verify each bet to ensure you always get a fair deal. Modern cryptographic algorithms such as the SHA512 hash algorithm computes the fair random number.

Verify when? 24 hours after playing game?
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August 27, 2013, 08:43:20 AM
 #47

Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.
Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day Smiley

Do you know Trust system is there for a reason and I am free to use it and if stunna was a good guy he should have posted proofs already in this thread that his site is fair. (Look at the original date of this thread).


Ps: I'm not the only guy who thinks his site is not fair.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711

You are right, the trust system is there for a reason, so you shouldn't be offended if everyone were to neg rep you now stating, "Makes false claims about scamming without proof"

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August 27, 2013, 08:49:56 AM
 #48

Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.
Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day Smiley

Do you know Trust system is there for a reason and I am free to use it and if stunna was a good guy he should have posted proofs already in this thread that his site is fair. (Look at the original date of this thread).


Ps: I'm not the only guy who thinks his site is not fair.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711

You are right, the trust system is there for a reason, so you shouldn't be offended if everyone were to neg rep you now stating, "Makes false claims about scamming without proof"

You should read what my rating says and I have proof of sending money. I need proof from him that his site is fair to remove that negative feedback.

Now stop crying and don't waste my time and yours. I have given it to stunna because he's owner and he the one that needs to clear all doubts and accusations.

I am not going to give reply to anyone else except stunna now.
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August 27, 2013, 08:58:36 AM
 #49

Verify when? 24 hours after playing game?

Satoshidice and Coinroll can only be verified at least 24 hours after the game. So do a lot of other non dice sites.

I'm not the owner, but I've already given you the proof. You simply refuse to see it.

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August 27, 2013, 09:01:00 AM
 #50

Another point- It's a constant work in progress. If people were skeptical about primedice's methods or provably fairness, then why not get in direct contact with Stunna? He's a nice guy and I'm sure would work with anyone. To leave neg trust because you have a (imo bad) hunch that there is foul-play is a bit childish and disrespectful.
Anyways, I don't really come here to argue, so good day Smiley

Do you know Trust system is there for a reason and I am free to use it and if stunna was a good guy he should have posted proofs already in this thread that his site is fair. (Look at the original date of this thread).


Ps: I'm not the only guy who thinks his site is not fair.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711

You are right, the trust system is there for a reason, so you shouldn't be offended if everyone were to neg rep you now stating, "Makes false claims about scamming without proof"

You should read what my rating says and I have proof of sending money. I need proof from him that his site is fair to remove that negative feedback.

Now stop crying and don't waste my time and yours. I have given it to stunna because he's owner and he the one that needs to clear all doubts and accusations.

I am not going to give reply to anyone else except stunna now.

Oh, I did
Quote
I thought i have bad luck but i know your site is rigged and you are stealing peoples money and stole my 0.5 bitcoins.

Give me proof of the bet's fairness and tell me why i won small amounts and lost a big one at 90% and i will remove it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280711.msg3006385#msg3006385


>implying either of our time is worth something.

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August 28, 2013, 05:39:44 AM
 #51

I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

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August 28, 2013, 06:04:57 AM
 #52

I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

Just-Dice                 ██             
          ██████████         
      ██████████████████     
  ██████████████████████████ 
██████████████████████████████
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    ██████████████████████   
        ██████████████       
            ██████           
   Play or Invest                 ██             
          ██████████         
      ██████████████████     
  ██████████████████████████ 
██████████████████████████████
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    ██████████████████████   
        ██████████████       
            ██████           
   1% House Edge
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August 28, 2013, 06:13:47 AM
 #53

I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086

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August 28, 2013, 06:55:14 AM
 #54

I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?
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August 28, 2013, 07:27:49 AM
 #55

I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?

I did not changed anything when I played that game.
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August 28, 2013, 07:29:26 AM
 #56

I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?

I did not changed anything when I played that game.


Why not?...
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August 28, 2013, 08:03:24 AM
 #57

I think he failed. Period.

3 things:

1. Daily secret is fixed for the entire day. He doesn't know when you are going to make your bet. Can not be manipulated.
2. Server seed is shown to you right before the roll. You can change it by betting zero or nothing.
3. Client seed can be changed, whether or not you do, the fact that you can makes it fair.

The odds of a website being unfair, after all 3 factors mentioned above are combined depends on the hash function, which in this case is SHA-512, therefore, the chance of the website manipulating the result is so low, you will get hit by lightning 10 times in 10 seconds, or win the real life lottery 10 days in a row, before you get an unfair game.

Brute-force attacks against 256-bit keys will be infeasible until computers are built from something other than matter and occupy something other than space.

Even if you use all the dollars in the World (including the dollars which do not exist, such as accumulated debts) and fry the whole planet in the process, you can barely do 1/1000th of an exhaustive key search on 128-bit keys. So this will not happen. And a 256-bit key search is about 340 billions of billions of billions of billions times harder than a 128-bit key search, so don't even think about it.

How many bits are we talking about again? 512.

Here's a picture for you, although it's about bitcoin, but the concept is the same.


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August 28, 2013, 08:07:59 AM
 #58

I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?

I did not changed anything when I played that game.


Why not?...

Because I'm not a pro gambler and not everyone does that.
I thought it's a good site and i can trust it.

On top of that you have to click on button to see server/client seed, new players don't check that.
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August 28, 2013, 08:11:08 AM
 #59

I got info of my bet from stunna but he failed to prove that his site is "provably fair".

What are you missing?  You need the client seed, server seed, and daily secret.

If you have all three of those, you should be able to independently generate the same roll that the site gave you.

What more do you want?

That doesn't proves their site is fair.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3011813#msg3011813
http://v20.nl/primedice/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253144.msg3013086#msg3013086



You changed the client seed, how isn't it fair?

I did not changed anything when I played that game.


Why not?...

Because I'm not a pro gambler and not everyone does that.
I thought it's a good site and i can trust it.

On top of that you have to click on button to see server/client seed, new players don't check that.

Sigh. Give it a rest. I can assure you Stunna did not go this far out of his way to scam you 0.5 Bitcoins. You got unlucky & you chose to not participate in the provably fair aspect of the game. You could have also chose to roll over or under which would have completely changed it.

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August 28, 2013, 08:17:05 AM
 #60

Also someone (maybe escrow.ms) said: I lost everything on 93%.

Yeah if you bet all your money on 93% there is a 7% chance you lose it all. If it would be a sure win, it would not be called 93% but 100%.

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