Bitcoin Forum
December 13, 2024, 04:17:32 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 28.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 3 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Piper Paper Wallet - Why are there no replies???  (Read 4231 times)
elements (OP)
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 03:35:09 PM
 #1

Hi everyone,

today i learned (outside the forum) that a project is almost fully developed which is called Piper Paper Wallet.

Researching it within the forum I could only find posts from the developer updating the project on several occasions
with no replies/comments whatsoever.

That is a pretty rare thing on this forum and with a project potentially as huge as this I don't get it.

(I was hoping to find someone asking about security features, being psyched about it or at least bashing it down in the usual manner).

Why has no one taken any interest in it?


Project page: http://www.piperwallet.com/

Kickstarter page: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/299052466/piper-a-hardware-based-paper-wallet-printer-and-mo

Last Thread I could find with replies/comments: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210701.20

Project Update: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258057.msg2751595#msg2751595


PS: BTW I am not a paid shill or anything. I am just looking to finally find an easy way to have a really secure wallet (after almost 3 years!!!).




»A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.« - Douglas Adams
Use the trusted German Bitcoin exchange: https://www.bitcoin.de/de/r/5wcwts
Tips & donations: BTC : 1MAQYNLp2VJ9wWhPYg5BnrbUGzdhGXopZw | CGB: 5bgQivyHJcSWTgvLfVW87Zj23M7mcFCVBF
Meatpile
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 277
Merit: 250


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 04:17:53 PM
 #2

Well you asked: because its a shitty idea.

I dont understand the desire to tie brand new ideas to old annoying terrible things like a paper printer. The whole idea is ruined by the slightest amount of time or moisture.
acoindr
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 04:18:55 PM
 #3

I think Piper is a big step forward for storing bitcoins safely and easily. See this thread for an idea of the problem:

Do I really need a Bitcoin wallet?

I think there isn't more enthusiasm because it's not a full solution. It doesn't address the coin spending side too.

There is no reason to bash it because it seems to do what it claims very well with no security holes. This means nobody comments much positively or negatively. I'm glad the project exists, though.
acoindr
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 04:25:20 PM
 #4

I dont understand the desire to tie brand new ideas to old annoying terrible things like a paper printer. The whole idea is ruined by the slightest amount of time or moisture.

My understanding is the paper used keeps the image about 7 years. Also you can plug in a USB stick (or several) to keep backups of the keys.
elements (OP)
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 04:38:51 PM
 #5

First of all: thanks everyone for your replies!

I think that paper wallets which have been created completely offline are a very good thing (especially for people who can't secure a wallet otherwise).

Can you loose paper - YES. Can paper become unreadable - YES.

But still taking care of a piece of paper is a concept most people (also non tech-savvy people) are familiar with.
Furthermore paper can be laminated / copied (with an old fashioned Xerox) / scanned with an offline computer or even photographed.

I was more worried that there might be some hidden dangers (other than the paper degrading problem) with this device.
Usually a whole bunch of people asks for security specifications or points out what is / might be wrong with it.

So far I couldn't find anything (and therefore are inclined to get one).

So thank you for your replies once again.
Should you think of any problems this device could have I'd really appreciated your opinions.


PS: There seem to be two models: type A and type B - type B has an ethernet port...what's with that?


»A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.« - Douglas Adams
Use the trusted German Bitcoin exchange: https://www.bitcoin.de/de/r/5wcwts
Tips & donations: BTC : 1MAQYNLp2VJ9wWhPYg5BnrbUGzdhGXopZw | CGB: 5bgQivyHJcSWTgvLfVW87Zj23M7mcFCVBF
elements (OP)
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 04:44:16 PM
 #6


I think there isn't more enthusiasm because it's not a full solution. It doesn't address the coin spending side too.


The private keys can be imported to several interfaces, can't they?
So I imagine what you do is this:

a) take your bitcoin paper wallet (w1) from which you want to spend some coins

b) create a new paper wallet (w2)

c) import the whole balance to a client/an online wallet

d) keep what you want to spend there and send the remaining balance to your new paper wallet (w2)

Done.
Am I missing something?

What do you mean by 'it's not a full solution'?



»A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.« - Douglas Adams
Use the trusted German Bitcoin exchange: https://www.bitcoin.de/de/r/5wcwts
Tips & donations: BTC : 1MAQYNLp2VJ9wWhPYg5BnrbUGzdhGXopZw | CGB: 5bgQivyHJcSWTgvLfVW87Zj23M7mcFCVBF
Anon136
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217



View Profile
July 22, 2013, 04:49:12 PM
 #7

generating paper wallets offline is a bit of a hassle. however its not as much of a hassle as ordering that thing and having it sit around and take up space and ordering special paper. not to mention paying for the thing.

trezor is the way to go if you want more security than you get with a standard client

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
elements (OP)
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 04:53:56 PM
 #8

Can you imagine your grandma installing a new system all by herself?
Can you imagine her thinking about shutting down wifi for that period of time?
Can you imagine her being aware that her new smart printer might be unprotected/store the printed data in its buffer?

I can't.

Can you imagine her pressing a single illuminated button on a little black box and ripping of the piece of paper which comes out of it?

I can.


»A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.« - Douglas Adams
Use the trusted German Bitcoin exchange: https://www.bitcoin.de/de/r/5wcwts
Tips & donations: BTC : 1MAQYNLp2VJ9wWhPYg5BnrbUGzdhGXopZw | CGB: 5bgQivyHJcSWTgvLfVW87Zj23M7mcFCVBF
Anon136
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217



View Profile
July 22, 2013, 05:01:10 PM
 #9

Can you imagine your grandma installing a new system all by herself?
Can you imagine her thinking about shutting down wifi for that period of time?
Can you imagine her being aware that her new smart printer might be unprotected/store the printed data in its buffer?

I can't.

Can you imagine her pressing a single illuminated button on a little black box and ripping of the piece of paper which comes out of it?

I can.



grandama still has to buy the coins and send them to the wallet and import them from the wallet to spend them.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079


Gerald Davis


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 05:06:33 PM
 #10

The killer flaw IMHO is the printer is a heat transfer printer.  As anyone who has seen a paper receipt fade knows those are horribly unreliable for stability.  Expose them to too much light or heat and you will ruin the image. 
elements (OP)
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 05:08:23 PM
 #11

Quote

grandama still has to buy the coins and send them to the wallet and import them from the wallet to spend them.

Touché.

Getting the coins and importing the keys could be job for the grandson Wink
(in order to keep her money safe she just needs to remember to only give her grandson the upper part of the 'receipt')

»A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.« - Douglas Adams
Use the trusted German Bitcoin exchange: https://www.bitcoin.de/de/r/5wcwts
Tips & donations: BTC : 1MAQYNLp2VJ9wWhPYg5BnrbUGzdhGXopZw | CGB: 5bgQivyHJcSWTgvLfVW87Zj23M7mcFCVBF
elements (OP)
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 05:11:04 PM
 #12

The killer flaw IMHO is the printer is a heat transfer printer.  As anyone who has seen a paper receipt fade knows those are horribly unreliable for stability.  Expose them to too much light or heat and you will ruin the image. 

That is true. I'd rather see a different kind of printer in this thing but for that problem there are existing (easy) solutions (see above).

»A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.« - Douglas Adams
Use the trusted German Bitcoin exchange: https://www.bitcoin.de/de/r/5wcwts
Tips & donations: BTC : 1MAQYNLp2VJ9wWhPYg5BnrbUGzdhGXopZw | CGB: 5bgQivyHJcSWTgvLfVW87Zj23M7mcFCVBF
acoindr
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 05:30:05 PM
 #13


I think there isn't more enthusiasm because it's not a full solution. It doesn't address the coin spending side too.


The private keys can be imported to several interfaces, can't they?
So I imagine what you do is this:

a) take your bitcoin paper wallet (w1) from which you want to spend some coins

b) create a new paper wallet (w2)

c) import the whole balance to a client/an online wallet

d) keep what you want to spend there and send the remaining balance to your new paper wallet (w2)

Done.
Am I missing something?

What do you mean by 'it's not a full solution'?

There are still two problems.

First, is the complexity of manually managing the private keys. If someone is investing in a wallet option they will want it to take care of most of their needs. If the use case is mostly storing and not spending coins, then Piper may be a great no brainer route to go. As you say most everyone can relate to securing physical things.

The second problem is a paper wallet doesn't mean full security. If you enter a private key onto a compromised computer your bitcoins can be stolen in a fraction of a second. A paper wallet only keeps coins secure so long as they only exist with the paper wallet.

Trezor, for example, addresses both problems and is a full solution.
elements (OP)
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 05:45:47 PM
 #14

Quote
The second problem is a paper wallet doesn't mean full security. If you enter a private key onto a compromised computer your bitcoins can be stolen in a fraction of a second. A paper wallet only keeps coins secure so long as they only exist with the paper wallet.

In theory that is true but I don't think it is very likely. I imagine after storing a portion of my coins for several months or even years I visit blockinfo.com, open my online wallet (2 factor auth.) and Import the keys in a few seconds. What are the odds that exactly that instant an attacker breaches my system?

To increase security: a) several paper wallets only holding a fraction of your total b) always 'spending' the whole balance by using the aforementioned method.

To me that seems pretty safe.

About Trezor:

a) doesn't ship yet
b) like it in general but it still needs more technical skills and understanding than piper
c) you still have to connect trezor to your online device and how would I know that some future malware can't crack/infect it?
d) can only handle one wallet as far as I know
e) if so - I think it's to expensive at the moment

»A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.« - Douglas Adams
Use the trusted German Bitcoin exchange: https://www.bitcoin.de/de/r/5wcwts
Tips & donations: BTC : 1MAQYNLp2VJ9wWhPYg5BnrbUGzdhGXopZw | CGB: 5bgQivyHJcSWTgvLfVW87Zj23M7mcFCVBF
cp1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616
Merit: 500


Stop using branwallets


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 06:05:33 PM
 #15

A majority of people on this site have the expertise to generate paper wallets themselves and thus don't need it.  Those who can't do it themselves probably don't understand why they need a paper wallet.

Overall I like the ability to spend my coins so I use an armory offline wallet.

Guide to armory offline install on USB key:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=241730.0
acoindr
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 06:25:31 PM
 #16

Quote
The second problem is a paper wallet doesn't mean full security. If you enter a private key onto a compromised computer your bitcoins can be stolen in a fraction of a second. A paper wallet only keeps coins secure so long as they only exist with the paper wallet.

In theory that is true but I don't think it is very likely. I imagine after storing a portion of my coins for several months or even years I visit blockinfo.com, open my online wallet (2 factor auth.) and Import the keys in a few seconds. What are the odds that exactly that instant an attacker breaches my system?

The odds could be good actually.

The nature of bitcoins make them unbelievably attractive to hackers that are immoral. Their increasing adoption and value will only increase attempts to steal them.

If your computer or phone has bitcoin targeting malware then it can wait for the second you enter the private key to transfer bitcoins, assuming an Internet connection is available. The malware can make the transfer in fractions of a second, faster than you can block it. Two factor authentication means nothing if your bitcoins are transferred before you even access them.

Computers don't have the physical limits of humans. Waiting days, months or years to steal coins means nothing.

To increase security: a) several paper wallets only holding a fraction of your total b) always 'spending' the whole balance by using the aforementioned method.

The way you describe it above you enter the private key with the majority balance before sending the unspent balance back to a paper wallet. If your system is compromised the majority balance can be stolen before reaching the new wallet.

To me that seems pretty safe.

Security is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain. If you have good habits in general for avoiding malware, then yes you probably have little worry. The problem is unless you're pretty much a security expert you can't be sure how likely you are to have obtained malware.

About Trezor:

a) doesn't ship yet
b) like it in general but it still needs more technical skills and understanding than piper
c) you still have to connect trezor to your online device and how would I know that some future malware can't crack/infect it?
d) can only handle one wallet as far as I know
e) if so - I think it's to expensive at the moment

a) I imagine it will eventually
b) it provides a fuller security solution and so warrants the time to learn it, which is not much
c) malware can't infect it because it doesn't use an operating system; it's function specific
d) it can handle any bitcoin balance, small or large, securely
e) I think that depends
canton
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 261
Merit: 285



View Profile WWW
July 22, 2013, 09:32:25 PM
 #17

PS: There seem to be two models: type A and type B - type B has an ethernet port...what's with that?

I believe this has to do with whether a Raspberry Pi Model A vs Model B is being used under the hood. See:

http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-51668/l/raspberry-pi-model-a-versus-model-b-chart
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079


Gerald Davis


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 09:40:53 PM
 #18

The killer flaw IMHO is the printer is a heat transfer printer.  As anyone who has seen a paper receipt fade knows those are horribly unreliable for stability.  Expose them to too much light or heat and you will ruin the image. 

That is true. I'd rather see a different kind of printer in this thing but for that problem there are existing (easy) solutions (see above).


Well I don't consider those solutions either easy or good.   Someone who has an offline computer and scanner could simply use that computer for storing coins.  Someone who puts private keys in a digital camera is very likely to accidentally upload them to a computer.  Worse more and more for many people the cellphone is the most common digital camera.  I doubt many people will use their instant-one-button secure printer and then go find a copy machine to make a lasting copy.

No the most common scenario is someone prints out a keypair, puts it away and when they check months or years later the key has faded and all coins are lost.

If you think about the target audience it is going to result in lost coins.
acoindr
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 10:02:40 PM
 #19

The killer flaw IMHO is the printer is a heat transfer printer.  As anyone who has seen a paper receipt fade knows those are horribly unreliable for stability.  Expose them to too much light or heat and you will ruin the image.  

That is true. I'd rather see a different kind of printer in this thing but for that problem there are existing (easy) solutions (see above).


Well I don't consider those solutions either easy or good.   Someone who has an offline computer and scanner could simply use that computer for storing coins.  Someone who puts private keys in a digital camera is very likely to accidentally upload them to a computer.  Worse more and more for many people the cellphone is the most common digital camera.  I doubt many people will use their instant-one-button secure printer and then go find a copy machine to make a lasting copy.

No the most common scenario is someone prints out a keypair, puts it away and when they check months or years later the key has faded and all coins are lost.

If you think about the target audience it is going to result in lost coins.

I agree those printouts may not work well in practice... However people might also be more careful with them. Store them in a ziplock bag to protect from moisture and in a safe place, for example. I'd definitely make a USB stick copy too. Also, from what I understand the Piper stores all the keys in memory unless you tell it to forget them.
wachtwoord
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2338
Merit: 1136


View Profile
July 22, 2013, 10:08:42 PM
 #20

How does this improve over the paper wallet functionality in Armory (on a permanently offline computer with a fresh OS of course)?
Pages: [1] 2 3 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!