@Yifu/Bitsyncom please dont hold back the chip shipment because of b3 miners...

[SebastianJu]

This thread shows people's greedy and selfish clearly.

How is it selfish to ask a vendor to hold up the terms of the deal that they themselves specified?

Do you really think Avalon team is holding back the chips?

Either through incompetence or malice, yes.  It doesn't make any sense for TSMC to do small batches of chips.  There is quite a bit of setup time that goes in to producing a run of ASIC chips, so it is in their best interest to produce as many as time allows after setting up all the equipment.  So for them to only have 10,000 or 20,000 chips at once is very suspicious to me.

As I know the capacity of TSMC is very limited. Maybe the delay of chips are caused by TSMC or assembly factory.

How do you "know" this?

As you guys can assume Bitsyncom is holding back the chip shipment, why I cannot assume there is no chip available?
I am not questioning on TSMC is delaying the chip. I am questioning did Avalon really passed the chips order to TSMC on time just like they said.

Why should avalon wait 5 weeks and then change all chip orders to ordered at once? And all following batches were changed to ordered very fast too then. I think "Chips ordered" is very clear in this context. And, like i wrote, there are already 10th ot thousands of chips delivered.

[trigeek]

As you guys can assume Bitsyncom is holding back the chip shipment, why I cannot assume there is no chip available?
I am not questioning on TSMC is delaying the chip. I am questioning did Avalon really passed the chips order to TSMC on time just like they said.

If that's really what you're saying, it's FAR FAR worse.  That means they took in almost EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS worth of people's money, and then again, either through incompetence or malice, just sat on the money for a while.  I don't think that you guys realize just how much money is at stake here with these chip orders.  This isn't just a few pieces of hardware, this almost a million chips.  With no possibility of a refund, unlike batch 3 orders.  

People were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with their custom designed and assembled hardware because there are lots of places that can fail or be delayed...but they're acting solely as a passthrough here.  They basically just did the biggest group buy in the history of the internet.  They took in a bunch of money, picked up the phone, and stuff was supposed to be ready two months later. It should have been foolproof.  Now they're a month late and not telling any of the people they took eight million dollars from a damn thing.

Don't believe me? Take a look at this bitcoin address.  This is the payment address for chip orders: https://blockchain.info/address/1FGAftzSTztFSB8LMwsrdCKTyqGY6zr3sU

Notice that all the payments received are ~782btc.

[Wayne_Chang]

This thread shows people's greedy and selfish clearly.

How is it selfish to ask a vendor to hold up the terms of the deal that they themselves specified?

Do you really think Avalon team is holding back the chips?

Either through incompetence or malice, yes.  It doesn't make any sense for TSMC to do small batches of chips.  There is quite a bit of setup time that goes in to producing a run of ASIC chips, so it is in their best interest to produce as many as time allows after setting up all the equipment.  So for them to only have 10,000 or 20,000 chips at once is very suspicious to me.

As I know the capacity of TSMC is very limited. Maybe the delay of chips are caused by TSMC or assembly factory.

How do you "know" this?

As you guys can assume Bitsyncom is holding back the chip shipment, why I cannot assume there is no chip available?
I am not questioning on TSMC is delaying the chip. I am questioning did Avalon really passed the chips order to TSMC on time just like they said.

Why should avalon wait 5 weeks and then change all chip orders to ordered at once? And all following batches were changed to ordered very fast too then. I think "Chips ordered" is very clear in this context. And, like i wrote, there are already 10th ot thousands of chips delivered.

Can I say you guys too naive?
See what they did on refund customers. Many customers status changed to "Refunded" 1 day but with no money received. Then these status changed to "processing refund".
Till now you still believe in them? Come on, you should pray your can receive your chips finally instead of eaten by them.
They said batch#2 shipment would be finished within June. Actually many of batch#2 customers received their miners in July.
They said batch#3 will be shipped within 2 weeks. Now we are in 3rd week and most of batch#3 customers not received their miners yet.
If you still believe in them, you must have really good faith on them.
By the way, looks only 1 customer of batch#3 received his refund till now. How many days passed since Avalon said they accept refund request?

[Wayne_Chang]

As you guys can assume Bitsyncom is holding back the chip shipment, why I cannot assume there is no chip available?
I am not questioning on TSMC is delaying the chip. I am questioning did Avalon really passed the chips order to TSMC on time just like they said.

If that's really what you're saying, it's FAR FAR worse.  That means they took in almost EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS worth of people's money, and then again, either through incompetence or malice, just sat on the money for a while.  I don't think that you guys realize just how much money is at stake here with these chip orders.  This isn't just a few pieces of hardware, this almost a million chips.  With no possibility of a refund, unlike batch 3 orders.  

People were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with their custom designed and assembled hardware because there are lots of places that can fail or be delayed...but they're acting solely as a passthrough here.  They basically just did the biggest group buy in the history of the internet.  They took in a bunch of money, picked up the phone, and stuff was supposed to be ready two months later. It should have been foolproof.  Now they're a month late and not telling any of the people they took eight million dollars from a damn thing.

Don't believe me? Take a look at this bitcoin address.  This is the payment address for chip orders: https://blockchain.info/address/1FGAftzSTztFSB8LMwsrdCKTyqGY6zr3sU

Notice that all the payments received are ~782btc.

Most of batch#3 customers are in an awkward position.
Refund, till now not received. No one knows when can they receive.
Not refund, also no one knows when they can receive the miner.
What I can say is I wish you guys good luck!

[Bitcoinorama]

As you guys can assume Bitsyncom is holding back the chip shipment, why I cannot assume there is no chip available?
I am not questioning on TSMC is delaying the chip. I am questioning did Avalon really passed the chips order to TSMC on time just like they said.

If that's really what you're saying, it's FAR FAR worse.  That means they took in almost EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS worth of people's money, and then again, either through incompetence or malice, just sat on the money for a while.  I don't think that you guys realize just how much money is at stake here with these chip orders.  This isn't just a few pieces of hardware, this almost a million chips.  With no possibility of a refund, unlike batch 3 orders.  

People were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with their custom designed and assembled hardware because there are lots of places that can fail or be delayed...but they're acting solely as a passthrough here.  They basically just did the biggest group buy in the history of the internet.  They took in a bunch of money, picked up the phone, and stuff was supposed to be ready two months later. It should have been foolproof.  Now they're a month late and not telling any of the people they took eight million dollars from a damn thing.

Don't believe me? Take a look at this bitcoin address.  This is the payment address for chip orders: https://blockchain.info/address/1FGAftzSTztFSB8LMwsrdCKTyqGY6zr3sU

Notice that all the payments received are ~782btc.

Yifu alluded to that address having nothing to do with him...although he didn't deny it either;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=227103.msg2399090#msg2399090

somebody called and woke me up in the middle of the night for this, so I'll keep it short.

1a. see the conference video, I thought that's an update; for the lazy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY1xgGiejIc
1b. also got cornered after the panel and somebody took this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVx26LlNXA
2. an update incoming in < 1 week, pretty exciting.
3. we fully understand there is problems with orders ( no way?! )
- we can not address these issues IF WE DO NOT SOLVE OUR PRODUCTION ISSUE then we can not DELIVER at all.
- so until that happens, get all your information ready and bump the ticket if it makes you feel better, or just wish to complain and blow off some steam. ( please do not create new ones though, usually looking at the support system ticket insolvency merging at least 5-6 other ones first... ).
4. this forum is a giant waste of time, get back to coding, go outside, hug your mother, do something,

lastly, food for though:

who says we control that address in the first place?  

I'm just wondering, and genuinely not to spread FUD, but purely because they are a small team and the fear some of Bitsyncom members showed by changing mobile numbers and disappearing AWOL (Yifu mentioned this a while back), along with the exposure Bitcoin and Yifu has generated w.r.t. building money printing machines currently evading government scrutiny, if they have picked up some attention from some less than friendly customers with nefarious intent, i.e. a criminal gang that's 'politely' asked them to delay some orders so they can capitalise.

Then again, every time Yifu, or for that matter any company representative posts in these forums once money has been taken, the backlash appears more trouble than it's worth. Still there is the responsibility to keep people abreast of the situation regardless of how happy the news may, or may not make them at points...

[Loredo]

How many times have I posted about the perils of pre-order? 

No, no! is the cry in its defense; it facilitates businesses where there wouldn't be any; we only risk what we can lose; we're investors, and the promoters understand and respect that.

Bullshit.  When you give somebody your money in a transaction, you lose your power.  When you give somebody your money in a non-refundable transaction, you're setting your self up to be a victim.

We don't know.  Avalon may not be shipping simply because its too much of a hassle from them to deal with the mundane details of retail fulfillment.  Maybe tomorrow, but today, the sun is out, and the new BMW is too much fun to drive.

I hope for the best, because of the DIY movement.  I fear reality, though.

[Ytterbium]

@Ytterbium, Wayne_Chang, koob
Regarding chips arent produced... did you miss that several wholesale buyers in china got tens of thousands of chips already? zefir is the only normal buyer that got one normal batch. So if those big buyers got their chips then our chips has to be produced already too. Because... yifu collected chip batch orders for 5 weeks, then he ordered at the foundry. All further ordered batches turned to "ordered" instantly. That means the chips werent already produced in foundry and the new chips could be put on the already existing order list. TSMC is only creating once because the biggest work they have with creating such chips is to change their working space to produce them. So its best for them to do all in one rush.
If you guys are right and those wholesale chips were ordered before and created before then yifu wouldnt have collected chip orders for 5 weeks. He would have moved those orders instantly to TSMC like he did after the order. That sounds to me like a pretty good indicator that our chips are already created.

How do you know they sent chips to wholesalers in China? I heard someone mentioned pictures of massive numbers of Avalon boxes somewhere, but I've only seen one set of pictures.

But if that is true, it's likely that Avalon is focusing on major customers first, i.e. people who ordered 10 sets are getting priority queue placement over people who ordered just one box - why? Because they'd rather have a 10 box repeat customers then a 1 box repeat customer.

The thing is, Avalon doesn't like dealing with customers, especially whiny customers. This much is pretty much obvious.  So, it's possible they're treating their annoying customers badly in hopes they go away, and treating their most understanding and most profitable customers the best.

That sucks for ya'll. But if they are having problems with their chip supply then that's the most likely reason - I do seriously doubt they're delaying chips so batch 3 customers can make ROI, that would fair (IMO) but also insane from a business perspective.

___
So either they are being incredibly fair and burning future chip customers by delaying chips to get Batch 3 out the door, or,

They are giving special priority to some chip customers over others because they value large orders over small ones.

[trigeek]

Yifu alluded to that address having nothing to do with him...although he didn't deny it either;

I was waiting for that.  I bought chips through a group buy, and all the payments from that group buy went to this address.  Chip orders cost 782BTC, and almost all of the transactions to that address were for that exact amount or very close.  People were wondering why Yifu hadn't spent any of the 72K BTC yet, and I think what he was alluding to is that either TSMC or some other entity was interested in keeping the funds as BTC and paying for the fab work using currency from some other source.  My point was- that address is most definitely for chip orders, and there are almost 100 x 10,000 chip orders there.

I'm just wondering, and genuinely not to spread FUD, but purely because they are a small team and the fear some of Bitsyncom members showed by changing mobile numbers and disappearing AWOL (Yifu mentioned this a while back), along with the exposure Bitcoin and Yifu has generated w.r.t. building money printing machines currently evading government scrutiny, if they have picked up some attention from some less than friendly customers with nefarious intent, i.e. a criminal gang that's 'politely' asked them to delay some orders so they can capitalise.

Then again, every time Yifu, or for that matter any company representative posts in these forums once money has been taken, the backlash appears more trouble than it's worth. Still there is the responsibility to keep people abreast of the situation regardless of how happy the news may, or may not make them at points...

It just looks extremely bad to be A.W.O.L with 8 million dollars of peoples money. Even if they don't have good news to give.

[Tursk]

But if that is true, it's likely that Avalon is focusing on major customers first, i.e. people who ordered 10 sets are getting priority queue placement over people who ordered just one box - why? Because they'd rather have a 10 box repeat customers then a 1 box repeat customer.

So why Avalon didn't send zefir more than one 10k batch of chips over a week ago, although his first groupbuys were ordered only days apart?

The thing is, Avalon doesn't like dealing with customers, especially whiny customers. This much is pretty much obvious.  So, it's possible they're treating their annoying customers badly in hopes they go away, and treating their most understanding and most profitable customers the best.

I agree with Avalon, customers are a nuisance. But still, you cannot just ignore them and think it doesn't hurt your future business. I wonder what company will trust Avalon to deliver their upcoming 2nd generation chips on time.

[Bitcoinorama]

The more I think about it, the less likely it is to be something nefarious, it's more than likely the fact his phone (which according to Seb Ju) still rings, rings like crazy, if he's not already using a different number.

Whatever news Yifu does have, probably will just wind people up more, even if it is good, 100% of people are never happy, and all that matters is the units and chips in hand, so it's probably wall of silence time to prevent himself from being dragged into a slanging match which he definitely know will do him no favours.

Again this is where someone specialised in communications would have been a worthwhile addition, and whatever occurs, whether he intends to sack off building units and intends to sell chips again in future, Bitsyncom cheaped out, and cut corners there, unnecessarily, as I cannot see the stress being worth not paying someone handsomely who can handle that shiz...

[joeventura]

Who has his cell phone number.

I am pretty sure I can get his attention.

[SebastianJu]

Can I say you guys too naive?
See what they did on refund customers. Many customers status changed to "Refunded" 1 day but with no money received. Then these status changed to "processing refund".
Till now you still believe in them? Come on, you should pray your can receive your chips finally instead of eaten by them.
They said batch#2 shipment would be finished within June. Actually many of batch#2 customers received their miners in July.
They said batch#3 will be shipped within 2 weeks. Now we are in 3rd week and most of batch#3 customers not received their miners yet.
If you still believe in them, you must have really good faith on them.
By the way, looks only 1 customer of batch#3 received his refund till now. How many days passed since Avalon said they accept refund request?

Refunded is the standard tag in such shops, there is no "processing refund" from the start... so they later added that status tag. Its fine for me, my miner is at processing refunds now and i think Yifu prefers to work on delivering batch 3 miners instead refunding. Refunding at least will take some time, but not much at all of course. But its bitcoins... the value of the refund isnt changing... at least if you dont plan to reinvest it. So a refund that remains its value over time compared to a product that constantly lose value and might even turn into a loss over time is a difference.

Werent batch 3 miners supposed to ship may 5th? That wouldnt be 3 weeks, that would be 3 Months! already. I might be wrong on the date, i read it in the forum.

Regarding believing... i still believe they will deliver... but i will not make business with them anymore. The reason is not the delay, the worse thing is the support. There is no support. And Yifu will not change this. He will not hire a support person even though he cant manage the support on its own. And that is, especially with pressing tickets, something i cant accept.

So in future... i will only invest in bitcoin world not only when i dont have any doubts about a product, company and the persons behind but only too when the support is correct. Unfortunately zefir told me that bitfury had a fine support... until he ordered. There is no support there anymore too now. I really hope such business models will be changed to better ones. Market normally would regulate this on itself, unfortunately we are in a semi-monopoly.

@Ytterbium, Wayne_Chang, koob
Regarding chips arent produced... did you miss that several wholesale buyers in china got tens of thousands of chips already? zefir is the only normal buyer that got one normal batch. So if those big buyers got their chips then our chips has to be produced already too. Because... yifu collected chip batch orders for 5 weeks, then he ordered at the foundry. All further ordered batches turned to "ordered" instantly. That means the chips werent already produced in foundry and the new chips could be put on the already existing order list. TSMC is only creating once because the biggest work they have with creating such chips is to change their working space to produce them. So its best for them to do all in one rush.
If you guys are right and those wholesale chips were ordered before and created before then yifu wouldnt have collected chip orders for 5 weeks. He would have moved those orders instantly to TSMC like he did after the order. That sounds to me like a pretty good indicator that our chips are already created.

How do you know they sent chips to wholesalers in China? I heard someone mentioned pictures of massive numbers of Avalon boxes somewhere, but I've only seen one set of pictures.

But if that is true, it's likely that Avalon is focusing on major customers first, i.e. people who ordered 10 sets are getting priority queue placement over people who ordered just one box - why? Because they'd rather have a 10 box repeat customers then a 1 box repeat customer.

The thing is, Avalon doesn't like dealing with customers, especially whiny customers. This much is pretty much obvious.  So, it's possible they're treating their annoying customers badly in hopes they go away, and treating their most understanding and most profitable customers the best.

That sucks for ya'll. But if they are having problems with their chip supply then that's the most likely reason - I do seriously doubt they're delaying chips so batch 3 customers can make ROI, that would fair (IMO) but also insane from a business perspective.

___
So either they are being incredibly fair and burning future chip customers by delaying chips to get Batch 3 out the door, or,

They are giving special priority to some chip customers over others because they value large orders over small ones.

Someone translated it in the forum. These chips seems to be bought from a businessman that wanted to create miners and sell them. Im sure someone who buys such amounts or even know yifu personally to speak to him can make a special contract that enforces Yifu to ship immediately... unfortunately we are only normal customers.

It really looks like yifu doesnt do support in the hope it goes away somehow on its own. But look at zefir. He ordered 7 batches of chips. In fact he ordered a 8. one too. And my groupbuy has 5 own batches. I consider this as not small. So if he would prefer the big ones there should have been moving some more.

Avalon shipped already many chips and they probably ordered many batches at TSMC before so they should know how long it takes. When they waited 5 weeks to order then it probably is because they know it takes 4 weeks to get them. Then they could ship in a week and would have kept their promise. I dont see why this timeframe should change especially now when private buyers wants chips too.

The more I think about it, the less likely it is to be something nefarious, it's more than likely the fact his phone (which according to Seb Ju) still rings, rings like crazy, if he's not already using a different number.

Whatever news Yifu does have, probably will just wind people up more, even if it is good, 100% of people are never happy, and all that matters is the units and chips in hand, so it's probably wall of silence time to prevent himself from being dragged into a slanging match which he definitely know will do him no favours.

Again this is where someone specialised in communications would have been a worthwhile addition, and whatever occurs, whether he intends to sack off building units and intends to sell chips again in future, Bitsyncom cheaped out, and cut corners there, unnecessarily, as I cannot see the stress being worth not paying someone handsomely who can handle that shiz...

I stopped calling since i realized he wont answer. But he is still using this number.

Im not the same opinion. News always lead to a bit peace of mind for most. Not knowing is prone to heat up the atmosphere. Communication is key to lower this. Give the customers some hope, a date or something and they will be quiet again at most. And thats why i think yifu shipped one batch of chips for zefir and gave one refund for a batch 3 miner. To show that he will do it and to take away doubts a bit. Maybe the chip batches too to let other buyers know the bill details.

Regarding support stress... when someone has a pressing ticket like me... he cant let it lie. So if yifu simply would solve that ticket it would be done in 2 minutes maximum. Instead he prefers to get called day in and out, knowing who i am, getting more and more tickets, emails and so on so that it looks like a huge amount of work. And that only because of 2 minutes work. Thats plain stupid, sorry.

Who has his cell phone number.

I am pretty sure I can get his attention.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157856.msg2594647#msg2594647

But you wont... he wont answer simply, letting it ring out or click you away. And his voice recorder... i dont know he is hearing it.

[Min€r]

As I know the capacity of TSMC is very limited. Maybe the delay of chips are caused by TSMC or assembly factory.

Hahahaha - you know nothing, thats sure! VERY limited :-)

[sasadjak]

Chips produced Week 25 ( 16-22 june) i look on OROBANK picture
22 July zafir receive tracking number that is 30 days delay...

[SebastianJu]

Chips produced Week 25 ( 16-22 june) i look on OROBANK picture
22 July zafir receive tracking number that is 30 days delay...

Someone posted that the numbers on the chips can tell in what week they were produced. I only have some sample chips remaining so that probably doesnt help much. Would be interesting if burnin could take a look at the chips he got from zefir or one of the wholesale buyers.

[SebastianJu]

Here is a photo of a chip form zefir's first batch, as far as i read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264897.msg2833915#msg2833915

Does it mean this chip was produced in week 25? That was the week from june 17-23. That should be pretty solid proof that the chips are produced.

[badalien]

where do you see week 25 in the picture what is the code  ?

[Tursk]

where do you see week 25 in the picture what is the code  ?

25 before last 2C means week 25.

[Ytterbium]

Yifu alluded to that address having nothing to do with him...although he didn't deny it either;

I was waiting for that.  I bought chips through a group buy, and all the payments from that group buy went to this address.  Chip orders cost 782BTC, and almost all of the transactions to that address were for that exact amount or very close.  People were wondering why Yifu hadn't spent any of the 72K BTC yet, and I think what he was alluding to is that either TSMC or some other entity was interested in keeping the funds as BTC and paying for the fab work using currency from some other source.  My point was- that address is most definitely for chip orders, and there are almost 100 x 10,000 chip orders there.

Another possibility: In his talk he mentioned that he was selling large amounts of BTC privately in order to pay for fabrication.  It's possible that 75k btc address belongs to some rich person he was selling coins too.

But that said, it really does look like all of those transactions were for chip orders, as most of them seem to be close to even multiples of 780BTC. For example check out 17Tfh8SE71MbvQ5vZtXPQA8a4YM8NPv3bf Which did nothing except take in 15.6k BTC, and then send it to the 1FGAftz... address.

That's slightly more then the cost of 20x boxes of chips.   

I think the most likely scenario is that large orders are being prioritized over small ones.

[SebastianJu]

I think the most likely scenario is that large orders are being prioritized over small ones.

Yifu stated in newsletter that the chip orders will be shipped in order of ordering in the shop. But even when he ships in order of order size... there are no more happy customers yet. There are many days in between now already.