MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address”

[bvt]

He went on to disregard reddit users because it's a "cesspool of ignorance" and deleted his own thread.

The reddit thread seems live & well. It's hard sometimes to conduct productive discussion over reddit (as well as bitcointalk), I think he has been very responsive in bitcointalk. He's only one person after all, it's not reasonable to expect him to answer every post on every channel.

The reddit thread says "[removed]", does it not? There's a possibility that a moderator removed it, but I assumed he did. I don't know. I think part of the problem is that it suddenly "launched" and asked for funds that he might have got a bit overwhelmed.

I've had 2 of my posts deleted from this thread and I made no claims of scam, but I admit one was a tad harsh. I first read the reddit post and his white paper, then went on to read this thread. The "cesspool of ignorance" remark combined with everything else raised the red flags for me. I think he wanted maximum exposure and I think it's fair to expect him to respond appropriately and address the issues raised.

I actually missed the "removed" bit.

If there is a post you feel was deleted without "a just cause", a post that actually adds to the conversation, feel free to send it to me (ron@bitblu.com) for review. I can then post my opinion about it, if you'd like.

(Assuming you still have / can get access to the post text).

From the 1.5+ years I've known him (mostly in the forums, not personally), I've seen Willet as fair and rational, not a scammer or someone to ignore people. He might have overreacted to your posts due to the state he was in, after having to battle real trolls (mistakes happen).

It doesn't add to the conversation because it's basically the same points I've written elsewhere, only more way more confrontational. I was probably lumped with spiral_mind and he has not deleted my later posts so I see no point in trying to fault him for that now. I would rather that the discussion went on with what's already in the thread.

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[ripper234]

It doesn't add to the conversation because it's basically the same points I've written elsewhere, only more way more confrontational. I was probably lumped with spiral_mind and he has not deleted my later posts so I see no point in trying to fault him for that now. I would rather that the discussion went on with what's already in the thread.

+1

[bytemaster]

the economical properties of the protocol have reached "1.0" stage and now can't be changed without a huge fuss.

I strongly suggest you not close this particular topic.... the economics of the system must be changed or it will fail.

[ripper234]

the economical properties of the protocol have reached "1.0" stage and now can't be changed without a huge fuss.

I strongly suggest you not close this particular topic.... the economics of the system must be changed or it will fail.

When I say "economical properties", I specifically refer to things such as:

1. Each Donated Bitcoin is worth 100 MSC
2. The only donations possible are before Sep 1 2013
3. Early Adopter bonus (10% bonus per week before Sep 1)
4. 10% bonus in MSC awarded to the "Mastercoin Foundation" in an exponentially decaying rate (50% of this bonus in the first year, 25% in the second year, etc).
5. No additional ways to create mastercoins (this is critical)

The properties above cannot now be changed. If anyone changes them, even if it's Willet himself, his changed version will not be MasterCoin (it's essentially a hardfork / Prohibited Change).

Other properties of the protocol could perhaps be changed.
Do you have suggestions for specific changes you'd like to see? (I've read most of your previous posts, I'm asking about specific changes, not an entire redesign, which will also probably not "be MasterCoin").

[bvt]

the economical properties of the protocol have reached "1.0" stage and now can't be changed without a huge fuss.

I strongly suggest you not close this particular topic.... the economics of the system must be changed or it will fail.

When I say "economical properties", I specifically refer to things such as:

1. Each Donated Bitcoin is worth 100 MSC
2. The only donations possible are before Sep 1 2013
3. Early Adopter bonus (10% bonus per week before Sep 1)
4. 10% bonus in MSC awarded to the "Mastercoin Foundation" in an exponentially decaying rate (50% of this bonus in the first year, 25% in the second year, etc).
5. No additional ways to create mastercoins (this is critical)

The properties above cannot now be changed. If anyone changes them, even if it's Willet himself, his changed version will not be MasterCoin (it's essentially a hardfork / Prohibited Change).

Other properties of the protocol could perhaps be changed.
Do you have suggestions for specific changes you'd like to see? (I've read most of your previous posts, I'm asking about specific changes, not an entire redesign, which will also probably not "be MasterCoin").

That's not exactly true though. Sent coins could be returned and relaunch MasterCoin later.

I'm not sure if you were initially referring to my point 1, but he could also relinquish control over the exodus address to someone overseeing the development and integrity of MasterCoin. This wouldn't necessarily change anything you mention. I would assume if that was the case developers should be hired and I'm not entirely sure he wants to put his entire bitcoin wealth at the same risk as everyone else who already sent.

This obviously disregards any other controversial claims in his white paper.

[ripper234]

That's not exactly true though. Sent coins could be returned and relaunch MasterCoin later.

I don't think this is a good idea. This would greatly disrupt things, and a lot of people won't play this game a second time around.

I'm not sure if you were initially referring to my point 1, but he could also relinquish control over the exodus address to someone overseeing the development and integrity of MasterCoin. This wouldn't necessarily change anything you mention. I would assume if that was the case developers should be hired and I'm not entirely sure he wants to put his entire bitcoin wealth at the same risk as everyone else who already sent.

That is completely possible. He can send all funds from the Exodus to a 3rd party even after September 1st.

[RationalSpeculator]

Holy crap! People are actually sending me money!
http://blockchain.info/address/1EXoDusjGwvnjZUyKkxZ4UHEf77z6A5S4P

A LOT of money.

Holy holy crap batman.

I also like your idea to build the new protocol on bitcoin instead of starting an alternative blockchain but I am surprised this attracts 1000 of btc's considering the many objections stated by smart people here.

I do get the feeling bitcoin land is like the dotcom bubble. I'm wondering those that send 100's of coins, or are heavily invested in copycats like Litecoin, have they succeeded ever in avoiding a bubble before?

For example did they leave/avoided the stock market, commodities or emerging markets in 2007, or left/avoided real estate in 2005, or reduced/left bitcoin in June 2011 or April 2013 before the market crashed?

This is a serious question I would love to get an answer from investors in this project or Litecoin? Because it seems they are walking into a bubble that has a high chance of destroying their capital. It would comfort me to hear that they have successfully detected bubbles before and believe this is not one.    

On a sidenote can someone explain to me how come this btc address says it has 1800 btc but many more seem to have been send adding up to 3000 btc easily?

[Chang Hum]

Holy crap! People are actually sending me money!
http://blockchain.info/address/1EXoDusjGwvnjZUyKkxZ4UHEf77z6A5S4P

A LOT of money.

Holy holy crap batman.

I also like your idea to build the new protocol on bitcoin instead of starting an alternative blockchain but I am surprised this attracts 1000 of btc's considering the many objections stated by smart people here.

I do get the feeling bitcoin land is like the dotcom bubble. I'm wondering those that send 100's of coins, or are heavily invested in copycats like Litecoin, have they succeeded ever in avoiding a bubble before?

For example did they leave/avoided the stock market, commodities or emerging markets in 2007, or left/avoided real estate in 2005, or reduced/left bitcoin in June 2011 or April 2013 before the market crashed?

This is a serious question I would love to get an answer from investors in this project or Litecoin? Because it seems they are walking into a bubble that has a high chance of destroying their capital. It would comfort me to hear that they have successfully detected bubbles before and believe this is not one.    

On a sidenote can someone explain to me how come this btc address says it has 1800 btc but many more seem to have been send adding up to 3000 btc easily?

I avoided the bubble a bit too early in April as it crashed back to where I sold at around 108-109!! If I'd waited another 5 days could of bought a couple more properties haha.... Yes explanation around 600 bitcoins have been sent excluding Dacoinmasters where do you get the figure of 3000 from the blockchain shows a list of what's been sent? It's a bit off topic so delete this post if you want dacoinmaster but why do you think now is a bubble and how have you been detecting bubbles in the past?

[RationalSpeculator]

Holy crap! People are actually sending me money!
http://blockchain.info/address/1EXoDusjGwvnjZUyKkxZ4UHEf77z6A5S4P

A LOT of money.

Holy holy crap batman.

... can someone explain to me how come this btc address says it has 1800 btc but many more seem to have been send adding up to 3000 btc easily?

... where do you get the figure of 3000 from the blockchain shows a list of what's been sent? It's a bit off topic so delete this post if you want dacoinmaster but why do you think now is a bubble and how have you been detecting bubbles in the past?

I see a transaction of 1995 btc towards exodus: http://blockchain.info/tx/103397caef6dc9b31c944eaa3efecfe924dc4f830db815d9d1735cdc5f4354a5
Another one of 1222 btc: http://blockchain.info/tx/68c0677e3fc26286d2c83772f6e1f7b4b9e3072008995a884a8c1e943f4dbf99
And many more... but balance says 1885 btc only on exodus address?

Well the first bubble, the dotcom bubble, I didn't detect and went all in on the top and lost my savings.

Learned my lesson. I'm detecting a bubble when huge gains have already been made, everybody talks about it, prices double faster and faster. Money slushes over into the weakest of the market with poor fundamentals and they go up even more percentage wise than the leaders (low end real estate, pets.com, Litecoin) and on the top money is invested in mere stories with nothing tangible (real estate on the drawing board, this?).

Did you invest here? If so why?

[ripper234]

I see a transaction of 1995 btc towards exodus: http://blockchain.info/tx/103397caef6dc9b31c944eaa3efecfe924dc4f830db815d9d1735cdc5f4354a5

It's 1.995 BTC, not 1995 lol

[RationalSpeculator]

I see a transaction of 1995 btc towards exodus: http://blockchain.info/tx/103397caef6dc9b31c944eaa3efecfe924dc4f830db815d9d1735cdc5f4354a5

It's 1.995 BTC, not 1995 lol

lol, thanks

[ripper234]

Yes, I will still control the funds I use to purchase MasterCoins. That's why I can go all in, while the rest of you have to decide if I'm nuts, a scammer, or maybe could really pull this off

I would like to emphasize that, since you control the exodus address, it is important that you buy only few mastercoins and furthermore that you are completely transparent about how much you buy. Of course, this doesn't apply to buying them on the free market later.

As implied above, I actually intend to buy a large number of them - probably around 24 hours after the announcement. I really believe this will work, and I want to own as many of them as possible.

In other words, you're taking none of the risk and getting all of the reward?

I like you but I really don't like where this is going, you'll need to be extremely transparent (and with reasonable expectations set forth in advance) for this to make any sense.

Just to give my opinion about this specific comment:
Willet will have to be extremely transparent (he has been until now).
IMHO as stated multiple times he should, for the better of the project, create a board of directors (the sooner the better).
I personally am willing to risk some funds on him even without this step, but IMO creating such a board will increase the trust people are willing to grant this project at least by a factor of ten.

You're bootstrapping a protocol, why not bootstrap the protocol's equivalent to the Bitcoin Foundation with it as well.

[Chang Hum]

Holy crap! People are actually sending me money!
http://blockchain.info/address/1EXoDusjGwvnjZUyKkxZ4UHEf77z6A5S4P

A LOT of money.

Holy holy crap batman.

... can someone explain to me how come this btc address says it has 1800 btc but many more seem to have been send adding up to 3000 btc easily?

... where do you get the figure of 3000 from the blockchain shows a list of what's been sent? It's a bit off topic so delete this post if you want dacoinmaster but why do you think now is a bubble and how have you been detecting bubbles in the past?

I see a transaction of 1995 btc towards exodus: http://blockchain.info/tx/103397caef6dc9b31c944eaa3efecfe924dc4f830db815d9d1735cdc5f4354a5
Another one of 1222 btc: http://blockchain.info/tx/68c0677e3fc26286d2c83772f6e1f7b4b9e3072008995a884a8c1e943f4dbf99
And many more... but balance says 1885 btc only on exodus address?

Well the first bubble, the dotcom bubble, I didn't detect and went all in on the top and lost my savings.

Learned my lesson. I'm detecting a bubble when huge gains have already been made, everybody talks about it, prices double faster and faster. Money slushes over into the weakest of the market with poor fundamentals and they go up even more percentage wise than the leaders (low end real estate, pets.com, Litecoin) and on the top money is invested in mere stories with nothing tangible (real estate on the drawing board, this?).

Did you invest here? If so why?

No I haven't, was really keen as loved the idea been thinking about how an alt could be used to work along side fiat at a stable rate and like the ideas of using crypto for stocks shares etc, but the method doesn't make sense for me so I'll just wish him the best of luck and sit this one out!

[btcdrak]

I also like your idea to build the new protocol on bitcoin instead of starting an alternative blockchain but I am surprised this attracts 1000 of btc's considering the many objections stated by smart people here.

Remember 1,222 BTC is from OP.... so I wouldnt exactly call it's thousands.

[dacoinminster]

I realize I have several questions to answer on this thread, but first I'd like to acknowledge two more major purchases, for 50 BTC and 42BTC. Amusingly, the 42BTC purchase has a public note linking to a Douglas Adams quote about money: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/70702-this-planet-has---or-rather-had---a-problem

Thanks guys! I'll do my best to not let you down!

[dacoinminster]

It appears that spiral_mind was successful in getting my original reddit post deleted. Confusingly, the text is still there when I view the thread from my own account, but it is not visible to anyone else, which is why I didn't notice it had been removed. I added a comment linking to this thread, although I don't know if anybody will see it, since that thread isn't getting much traffic anymore.

[dacoinminster]

It appears that my method of funding this project is still quite contentious. I want to address a couple of those issues further:

• Some of you seem to think that  my own money is not at risk if this project fails. That is not true. If this project fails (probably because somebody else does something similar, but does it better and/or faster), I would return any remaining funds to investors. I would get a partial refund just like everyone else.
• I modeled this fundraiser like a kick-starter, but investors are motivated similarly to angel investors (venture capitalists investing in early stage companies). The risk they are taking is very high, but the potential reward is very high as well.
• The risk I am NOT taking is the risk that this is all just a scam. I don't think there is anything I can do about that imbalance, other than just making it really clear this is not a scam.

I hope I haven't given anyone the impression that they shouldn't criticize my fundraising method. I merely wished to say that if someone else has a better way to do it, they should go for it!

[vokain]

It appears that my method of funding this project is still quite contentious. I want to address a couple of those issues further:

• Some of you seem to think that  my own money is not at risk if this project fails. That is not true. If this project fails (probably because somebody else does something similar, but does it better and/or faster), I would return any remaining funds to investors. I would get a partial refund just like everyone else.
• I modeled this fundraiser like a kick-starter, but investors are motivated similarly to angel investors (venture capitalists investing in early stage companies). The risk they are taking is very high, but the potential reward is very high as well.
• The risk I am NOT taking is the risk that this is all just a scam. I don't think there is anything I can do about that imbalance, other than just making it really clear this is not a scam.

I hope I haven't given anyone the impression that they shouldn't criticize my fundraising method. I merely wished to say that if someone else has a better way to do it, they should go for it!

what do you think is the fairest way for you to use the funds that will be available to use provided by 1exodus?

[dacoinminster]

I am delighted to see that the community seems to understand now that the escrow fund is not vulnerable to a "speculative attack". The remaining criticisms get to the heart of the matter: to what extent will people trust an escrow fund if it becomes "unhealthy"?

The risk of a "bank run" style collapse is very real if someday nobody wants MasterCoins anymore. The question is, where is the tipping point when this would become a problem for an unhealthy escrow fund?

If only 10% of people holding a currency are involved in a panic, even a very weak escrow fund could handle that just fine, and become stronger as a result. If 100% of people panic, only a fully-funded escrow fund could weather that onslaught. The real-world behavior of investors reacting to escrow funds can only be determined by actually trying this, which is what I am determined to do.

I think there are a couple important points that aren't being realized in these discussions:

• There is a very real possibility that some of the early user-created currencies will be vastly over-funded as MasterCoin takes off. Some of these currencies will have escrow funds holding value far in excess of the currency they are backing. The behavior of those currencies is guaranteed to be stable as long as they are over-funded. The uncertainty only comes into play once an escrow fund becomes unhealthy
• MasterCoin does not stand or fall based on the success of user currencies. I am equally excited about the possibilities of distributed betting, and that functionality will actually be implemented first! There is no uncertainty whatsoever about whether distributed betting will work.

Thank you everyone who has posted questions on this thread, and extra thank yous to those of you who are buying MasterCoins!

[vokain]

I imagine Mastercoin will be worth as much as to how useful it is in the marketplace. IF, and only IF, the protocol does what  the author claims it will do perfectly, then I believe it will be useful to the marketplace. Impeccably useful, actually. As in, society could never go back.

I would like to see these questions addressed:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.msg2857527#msg2857527
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.msg2858535#msg2858535
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.msg2863003#msg2863003