MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address”

[crazy_rabbit]

Mastercoin being in the Alt-Currency section will be good for awareness levels, but bad for development. I suggest splitting the two things- general mastercoin chit-chat here, and developmental talk somewhere else. You will only get lost here and bogged down by the nonesense here.

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[killerstorm]

I hope you do not recommend people to trust their money to something which "don't have anything 'stable' - not even close" and is in "rapid prototyping" stage.

Not at all, I do believe the Mastercoin community understand the message that as of the time of this posting, simple sends are the only safe and 100% supported way to transfer Mastercoins.

Ehm, I'm not so sure about safety of simple sends... Please check this example:

Suppose Alex wants to sell a physical gold bar for mastercoins. One day, buyer comes to his place, wants to buy gold. Sends Mastercoin simple send transaction to Alex's address. They wait for three confirmations. Transaction shows up in all Mastercoin explorers, shows Alex's balance correctly. Alex is super-suspicious, so he checks transaction chain, and finds that mastercoins he received are connected to exodus transaction through 3 simple sends. Alex knows that he can trust simple sends to work, so he believes it is OK and gives gold bar to buyer.

A month later, Mastercoin protocol is upgraded and Alex's balance is 0. HOW???

Well, it turns out that buyer was clever: he marked his transaction as savings (or sent any other currently-disabled Mastercoin transaction) before sending a simple send.

So at the time transaction was made, none of mastercoin explorers knew how to interpret mark-as-savings transactions, so they ignored it and assumed that simple send is correct. After protocol upgrade, mastercoin explorers now understood the old mark-as-savings transactions, and now it appears that simple send is invalid.

From what I see, it isn't enough to check whether mastercoins came to your account via a simple send, you have to:

1. inspect transaction history of each address mastercoins have traveled through before they got to you
2. identify all mastercoin transactions
3. if history has anything but simple spends (particularly, if it has transactions you cannot understand), you should reject the offer

Is there a tool which does this?

Or is there something in the spec which prevents re-interpretation of old transactions (i.e. so that ignored transactions won't ever be considered as meaningful)?

[Tachikoma]

New messages will be 'enabled' on a certain block. I don't think this will be a problem.

[killerstorm]

New messages will be 'enabled' on a certain block. I don't think this will be a problem.

Which messages are allowed now?

[Tachikoma]

Simple Sends. We are working on distributed exchange right now.

[crazy_rabbit]

Has anyone considered actually starting a company for Mastercoin? There is certianly enough money in the chest to run it like a real finacial business. Look at ripple/opencoin: maybe that's the way to really develop mastercoin further. While there is probably enough money already, might be helpful to get a few more million that's attached to VC's that can really help push mastercoin in the "meatspace" world. Not to mention people with real experience managing development of projects, hiring talent, etc.... I think we would all hate to see a brilliant project derailed because the people involved are genius in writing code but not geniuses of human resources or project management.

[killerstorm]

Simple Sends. We are working on distributed exchange right now.

Ehm, what's this then: http://mastercoin-explorer.com/order_books ?

You say that transactions other than simple sends will be enabled at a certain block in future.

This means that they aren't valid now, and won't be ever valid. But mastercoin-explorer.com show them as valid. Does this mean that mastercoin-explorer.com is broken (as in, shows fake information)?

Let's consider an example again:

1. I create mastercoin distributed exchange offer
2. buy my own mastercoins
3. use same address to make a simple send as if mastercoins were not sold

There are two possibilities:

1. distributed exchange offer is incorrect (because it was included before a block which enables distributed exchange), thus simple send is valid
2. distributed exchange offer is correct, then simple send is invalid

Which is it?

[Tachikoma]

Your second argument is valid.

[Ola]

Ron I know mastercoin board is a non-profit..but are there bylaws that govern the board? and whats the policy on transparency to those that have a vested interest in mastercoin??

Good news, mastercoind is under development, see my last post over at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=344229.0

Goal is to make a fully functional version that can parse simple sends (Class A and B). From there it can be extended.

After I get the initial version out, hopefully others can hack on it to and improve it to handle DEx transactions, and more. Would love to see a full time dev maintaining this!

rbdrbd this is NXT's api..this should motivate you:    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313082.0

They will probably have hundreds of apps at their disposal when the launch their exchange..I hope you are trucking on I am 100% behind you...heck Ill toss a few mastercoins your way if you manage to crank out something functional.

[killerstorm]

Your second argument is valid.

I'm sorry, I don't quite get you...

Does this mean that it is possible to fool person who uses something other than mastercoin-explorer.com to check whether he received transactions?

I tried a couple of mastercoin sites on this address: 1EAuHj8Z6rTCHPxXfaGzzPsZevC2mg1XAj

1. mastercoin-explorer. com shows its balance as 0.2 MSC (http://mastercoin-explorer.com/addresses/1EAuHj8Z6rTCHPxXfaGzzPsZevC2mg1XAj)
2. masterchest.info shows that it is 0 MSC (https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1EAuHj8Z6rTCHPxXfaGzzPsZevC2mg1XAj)
3. masterchain.info show it as 10 MSC (https://masterchain.info/Address.html?addr=1EAuHj8Z6rTCHPxXfaGzzPsZevC2mg1XAj)
4. mymastercoins.com shows 0.7 MSC

I understand that distributed exchange is in development, but the problem is that it affects people who think that they receive mastercoins via simple send: even if you receive a transaction via simple send, it is possible that at some point in history balance was influenced by a distributed exchange transaction, and from that point discrepancy can propagate.

How are people supposed to user mastercoins? Should they check all 4 available sites?

What should they do if they received a payment and after that they see a discrepancy?

From what I see, it is currently impossible to use Mastercoin in a safe way. (Even if one tries to use only simple sends.) Am I missing something?

[bitexch]

JR, however, has publicly stated he will spend more time with his family.

That's his complete right.

Who doubted JR's right to spend time with his family? Of course he can spend time with his family, but that certainly does mean he will spend less time on Mastercoin. Rather than invoking high-flown words like "rights", just ask yourself the following question: if there are two developers of comparable skill who are competing for the same job and salary, and one of them says he is willing to work 60 hours and the other says he is willing to work 40 hours, which one will you choose?

In general when I'm hiring people for Mastercoin, I never state any expectations of hours, just the expectation of a "50% position", "100% position", or whatever. It is up to J.R to manage how much he believes his 100% should be in terms of hours, according to his preferences.

This is absurd. Traditionally, one's boss does not ask one how many hours he would like to work, why should Mastercoin be an exception to this?!

This is also why I am uncomfortable with your suggestion that you and JR not get paid; if there is no salary involved than expectations become less rigorous. I would love for both of you to continue to work on the project, but I think that only salaried employees should be counted as full-time developers, as it will make things less ambiguous.

Many venture capitalist and private equity firms expect 60-80 hours a week from their employees, and they often have much less money and much less room for growth than Mastercoin.

I can't emphasize enough that Mastercoin is *not* the only project of its kind, and that the other projects are catching up!

Mastercoin is a $100 million project with lots of room for growth. It's absolutely ludicrous that we should have to beg an important member of the community to devote time to it.

EDIT: Ron, my general point is that you are not considering things as wholly from the perspective of the success of the Mastercoin project as you ought to. You are certainly entitled to the belief that Mastercoin devs don't have to commit to working a minimum number of hours each week, but it's possible that one of the projects competing with Mastercoin *does* have more stringent demands of its developers, and will accordingly complete its development first. If you are willing to maintain your principles, even when they endanger the success of the Mastercoin project, that is your decision. However, you (and the rest of the board) owe it to the investors to say so explicitly, that way we can decide whether we want to invest our money elsewhere.

[Tachikoma]

Your second argument is valid.

I'm sorry, I don't quite get you...

Does this mean that it is possible to fool person who uses something other than mastercoin-explorer.com to check whether he received transactions?

I tried a couple of mastercoin sites on this address: 1EAuHj8Z6rTCHPxXfaGzzPsZevC2mg1XAj

1. mastercoin-explorer. com shows its balance as 0.2 MSC (http://mastercoin-explorer.com/addresses/1EAuHj8Z6rTCHPxXfaGzzPsZevC2mg1XAj)
2. masterchest.info shows that it is 0 MSC (https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1EAuHj8Z6rTCHPxXfaGzzPsZevC2mg1XAj)
3. masterchain.info show it as 10 MSC (https://masterchain.info/Address.html?addr=1EAuHj8Z6rTCHPxXfaGzzPsZevC2mg1XAj)
4. mymastercoins.com shows 0.7 MSC

I understand that distributed exchange is in development, but the problem is that it affects people who think that they receive mastercoins via simple send: even if you receive a transaction via simple send, it is possible that at some point in history balance was influenced by a distributed exchange transaction, and from that point discrepancy can propagate.

How are people supposed to user mastercoins? Should they check all 4 available sites?

What should they do if they received a payment and after that they see a discrepancy?

From what I see, it is currently impossible to use Mastercoin in a safe way. (Even if one tries to use only simple sends.) Am I missing something?

If somebody wants to evil then yes, he could write his own Mastercoin messages for distributed exchange, send them over the network see how they are interpret by the different sites and then see if he can somehow use that in such a way that he can invalidate a later send Simple Send. However at this moment the knowledge only exists with the developers and there is no guaranteed way to safely do this as the evil doer since there is no way of knowing who currently has the right way of implementing a feature.

In the future this might become a problem, but as of right now I see nothing wrong with it. I agree that in the future it's better to discuss a block at which a certain future will be enabled to prevent evil-doers from abusing it.

[rbdrbd]

Ron I know mastercoin board is a non-profit..but are there bylaws that govern the board? and whats the policy on transparency to those that have a vested interest in mastercoin??

Good news, mastercoind is under development, see my last post over at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=344229.0

Goal is to make a fully functional version that can parse simple sends (Class A and B). From there it can be extended.

After I get the initial version out, hopefully others can hack on it to and improve it to handle DEx transactions, and more. Would love to see a full time dev maintaining this!

rbdrbd this is NXT's api..this should motivate you:    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313082.0

They will probably have hundreds of apps at their disposal when the launch their exchange..I hope you are trucking on I am 100% behind you...heck Ill toss a few mastercoins your way if you manage to crank out something functional.

Ola,

I will have it out in beta in less than a week, unless I run into major complications (which I don't anticipate at this time). Put a lot of work into it already.

Here's my docs:

http://masterdaemon.readthedocs.org/

Reading through them should give you an idea how I am writing it to work (i.e. pretty no brainer, especially for the binary install on windows).

Note that these docs are not final (several script names need to be updated for instance). I have code on github but it is not in running condition in any way (still working through bugs/adding functionality) -- so don't start messing with it until I release in beta. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up though.

[littleblue]

I am a Chinese, i want to say:BitShares is coming!  come on ,my mastercoin!

[Ola]

Ron I know mastercoin board is a non-profit..but are there bylaws that govern the board? and whats the policy on transparency to those that have a vested interest in mastercoin??

Good news, mastercoind is under development, see my last post over at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=344229.0

Goal is to make a fully functional version that can parse simple sends (Class A and B). From there it can be extended.

After I get the initial version out, hopefully others can hack on it to and improve it to handle DEx transactions, and more. Would love to see a full time dev maintaining this!

rbdrbd this is NXT's api..this should motivate you:    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313082.0

They will probably have hundreds of apps at their disposal when the launch their exchange..I hope you are trucking on I am 100% behind you...heck Ill toss a few mastercoins your way if you manage to crank out something functional.

Ola,

I will have it out in beta in less than a week, unless I run into major complications (which I don't anticipate at this time). Put a lot of work into it already.

Here's my docs:

http://masterdaemon.readthedocs.org/

Reading through them should give you an idea how I see this working (i.e. pretty no brainer, especially for the binary install on windows).

Note that these docs are not final (several script names need to be updated for instance). I have code on github but it is not in running condition in any way (still working through bugs/adding functionality) -- so don't start messing with it until I release in beta. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up though.

This is awesome news!!! you rock! I can't wait. This-->"masterdaemon listens on port 8339, and binds to localhost only" from your docs if i wanted to use one of electrum public servers here: http://electrum.qc.to/ or change public server Ip's dynamically based on connectivity Is this accomplishable in your "masterdaemon.conf file" ? if it is would you mind including the code commented out?  and in server.socket_host: "0.0.0.0"..

"0.0.0.0" would be server ip correct?

[rbdrbd]

Ron I know mastercoin board is a non-profit..but are there bylaws that govern the board? and whats the policy on transparency to those that have a vested interest in mastercoin??

Good news, mastercoind is under development, see my last post over at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=344229.0

Goal is to make a fully functional version that can parse simple sends (Class A and B). From there it can be extended.

After I get the initial version out, hopefully others can hack on it to and improve it to handle DEx transactions, and more. Would love to see a full time dev maintaining this!

rbdrbd this is NXT's api..this should motivate you:    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313082.0

They will probably have hundreds of apps at their disposal when the launch their exchange..I hope you are trucking on I am 100% behind you...heck Ill toss a few mastercoins your way if you manage to crank out something functional.

Ola,

I will have it out in beta in less than a week, unless I run into major complications (which I don't anticipate at this time). Put a lot of work into it already.

Here's my docs:

http://masterdaemon.readthedocs.org/

Reading through them should give you an idea how I see this working (i.e. pretty no brainer, especially for the binary install on windows).

Note that these docs are not final (several script names need to be updated for instance). I have code on github but it is not in running condition in any way (still working through bugs/adding functionality) -- so don't start messing with it until I release in beta. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up though.

This is awesome news!!! you rock! I can't wait. This-->"masterdaemon listens on port 8339, and binds to localhost only" from your docs if i wanted to use one of electrum public servers here: http://electrum.qc.to/ or change public server Ip's dynamically based on connectivity Is this accomplishable in your "masterdaemon.conf file" ? if it is would you mind including the code commented out?  and in server.socket_host: "0.0.0.0"..

"0.0.0.0" would be server ip correct?

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure if electrum is supported (same with blockchain'info's bitcoin RPC interface). Since I am using zathras's masterchest lib, that's a good Q for him.

In the meantime, I added this part to the docs. I am saying they are not for now, but they may work fine (definitely something to test when I release, and then let me know and I can update the docs):

At this point, only running ``bitcoind`` on the same LAN is supported. Blockchain.info and electrum's
bitcoind's interfaces are not supported.

To change the location of the ``bitcoind`` server to connect to, edit edit your ``app.conf`` file
(located in your ``masterdaemon`` data-directory) and change:::

    bitcoind_url: "http://127.0.0.1:8332"
    
which is located under the ``[masterchest]`` section to the approprite network location where ``bitcoind`` is running,
then restart ``masterdaemon``.

Zathras: I left you a number of questions/todo items in the masterdaemon thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=344229.new#new

[jakecnn]

"Mastercoin is a joke": http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rpx26/mastercoin_is_a_joke/

Would someone knowledgeable please care to limit damage?

[bitexch]

JR, however, has publicly stated he will spend more time with his family.

That's his complete right.

Who doubted JR's right to spend time with his family? Of course he can spend time with his family, but that certainly does mean he will spend less time on Mastercoin. Rather than invoking high-flown words like "rights", just ask yourself the following question: if there are two developers of comparable skill who are competing for the same job and salary, and one of them says he is willing to work 60 hours and the other says he is willing to work 40 hours, which one will you choose?

In general when I'm hiring people for Mastercoin, I never state any expectations of hours, just the expectation of a "50% position", "100% position", or whatever. It is up to J.R to manage how much he believes his 100% should be in terms of hours, according to his preferences.

This is absurd. Traditionally, one's boss does not ask one how many hours he would like to work, why should Mastercoin be an exception to this?!

This is also why I am uncomfortable with your suggestion that you and JR not get paid; if there is no salary involved than expectations become less rigorous. I would love for both of you to continue to work on the project, but I think that only salaried employees should be counted as full-time developers, as it will make things less ambiguous.

Many venture capitalist and private equity firms expect 60-80 hours a week from their employees, and they often have much less money and much less room for growth than Mastercoin.

I can't emphasize enough that Mastercoin is *not* the only project of its kind, and that the other projects are catching up!

Mastercoin is a $100 million project with lots of room for growth. It's absolutely ludicrous that we should have to beg an important member of the community to devote time to it.

EDIT: Ron, my general point is that you are not considering things as wholly from the perspective of the success of the Mastercoin project as you ought to. You are certainly entitled to the belief that Mastercoin devs don't have to commit to working a minimum number of hours each week, but it's possible that one of the projects competing with Mastercoin *does* have more stringent demands of its developers, and will accordingly complete its development first. If you are willing to maintain your principles, even when they endanger the success of the Mastercoin project, that is your decision. However, you (and the rest of the board) owe it to the investors to say so explicitly, that way we can decide whether we want to invest our money elsewhere.

EDIT 2: I am sorry to double-post, but so far only vokain has answered rbdrbd's question, and I think it is in the interest of the Mastercoin community to know the background of its board: "Do we have anyone on the board that has "boot on the ground" operational experience growing profitable software/tech startups with more than 5-10 employees?"

[rbdrbd]

"Mastercoin is a joke": http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rpx26/mastercoin_is_a_joke/

Would someone knowledgeable please care to limit damage?

Killerstorm had some valid concerns around it. Unfortunately, this project seems to lack the technical leadership at this time to have adequately responded to his questions and factored his concerns into the development process. He probably got a bit miffed and then took it publicly.

There is development process control that is sorely lacking on this project currently (and I say that as a dev with 18+ years professional experience that has been working with the existing mastercoin code as I structure a new tool around it). I have several ideas how this can be improved, and would be happy to speak with David or Ron, or anyone else on the board about it if they are interested.

Basically, in the end it's reason #5,490 for hiring a full-time team. On the operational side, this comes down to effective delegation...hiring decisions are the absolute most important decisions one can make. How Ron is running around clearly overwhelmed reminds me of how I used to be before I learned how to effectively hire, delegate, and train new employees. Now my business largely runs itself. Not a critique of Ron himself, and I cannot assume I know exactly what is going on on his end...more just saying that the board needs more dedicated folks with previous operational-level business leadership to help Ron scale out, which I see as Mastercoin's main problem right now. The fact that he just ran off and found someone additional for the board and mentioned it in passing on this thread really irks me. And, if there are people on the board that are "too busy", why are they on the board to begin with?

Anyhow, we need someone like killerstorm leading the charge on the core protocol implementation, to ensure stable growth and backwards compatibility as required. With the budget of this project, why is this so hard to do? If it is really that hard to find people to work for MSC, then offer fiat or BTC at first. At this point, we just need the right talent. It's good to see David in there attempting to diffuse the situation, but we're playing reactive damage control here.

EDIT: I was asked my bitexch if I would be interested in applying for a board seat. Initially, my response was no, however at this point I would be open to it. I do have an active business, but I could contribute around 15 or so hours a week most weeks, and act as an advisor if there is value seen in that. My goal would be to help get things back on track in a solid way, and then look to reducing my involvement/stepping out. Ron has my resume/linkedin. If there is interest, feel free to reach out. That, or I'd be more than happy to not be on the board, and just volunteer my services in an advisory/sounding board manner. I would even potentially be up to meeting you guys in person in Vegas on the 10-12th, however, let me know in the next few days.

And, I must say that any criticisms I offer on this project come with the intention of making it better. I still strongly support this project, I think it just needs a few more experienced hands to help the existing dedicated devs and board members.

[zbx]

"Mastercoin is a joke": http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rpx26/mastercoin_is_a_joke/

Would someone knowledgeable please care to limit damage?

Killerstorm had some valid concerns around it. Unfortunately, this project seems to lack the technical leadership at this time to have adequately responded to his questions and factored his concerns into the development process. He probably got a bit miffed and then took it publicly.

There is development process control that is sorely lacking on this project currently (and I say that as a dev with 18+ years professional experience that has been working with the existing mastercoin code as I structure a new tool around it). I have several ideas how this can be improved, and would be happy to speak with David or Ron, or anyone else on the board about it if they are interested.

Basically, in the end it's reason #5,490 for hiring a full-time team. On the operational side, this comes down to effective delegation...hiring decisions are the absolute most important decisions one can make. How Ron is running around clearly overwhelmed reminds me of how I used to be before I learned how to effectively hire, delegate, and train new employees. Now my business largely runs itself. Not a critique of Ron himself, and I cannot assume I know exactly what is going on on his end...more just saying that the board needs more dedicated folks with previous operational-level business leadership to help Ron scale out, which I see as Mastercoin's main problem right now. The fact that he just ran off and found someone additional for the board and mentioned it in passing on this thread really irks me. And, if there are people on the board that are "too busy", why are they on the board to begin with?

Anyhow, we need someone like killerstorm leading the charge on the core protocol implementation, to ensure stable growth and backwards compatibility as required. With the budget of this project, why is this so hard to do? If it is really that hard to find people to work for MSC, then offer fiat or BTC at first. At this point, we just need the right talent. It's good to see David in there attempting to diffuse the situation, but we're playing reactive damage control here.

I agree completely, (except perhaps w.r.t. killerstorm himself, of whom I would probably be more critical).