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marcelus
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December 31, 2013, 10:16:08 AM |
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What value does one place on this 'mastercoin' gold. We know the value of bitcoin is based on the energy and resources to extract a bitcoin. How much did it cost to extract this Mastercoin gold?
The value of bitcoin is derived far more from its protocol and network effects than its mining and scarcity - ie the ability to utilise a global payment network that allows quick, almost free, trustless transactions. Do you really think bitcoin has a market cap of billions just because it is mined?? Consequently, the fact that MSC is not mined is not a crucial point. It is a protocol that allows a number of very useful financial operations that bitcoin doesn't. Since it utilises the bitcoin network, MSC derives value from bitcoin's security as well.
Also, what is the utility of this mastercoin gold? if one master coin can contain the same number of user defined coins as 100 master coins, then what is it worth?
Surely the number of coins is irrelevant? It is their value that matters. User defined coins may derive their value from real world assets but the only way they can hold this value if they are backed by MSC of the same value. You can't just magically create value with a smart asset. It has to be backed by something and it shouldn't require explaining that in the virtual world it is impossible to back the smart asset with the real world asset it is derived from. This is how the protocol creates demand for the tokens it uses. This is how MSC have value. The bottom line is that crypto currencies are protocols before they are currencies and it is in the protocol that the value lies. |
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In order to get the maximum amount of activity points possible, you just need to post once per day on average. Skipping days is OK as long as you maintain the average.
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marcelus
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December 31, 2013, 10:48:25 AM |
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Okay, so some guy runs an experiment with Mastecoin, then realizes that there is not correlation between the bitcoin being used to transfer and the MSC actually transferred.
In fact, if someone created a user defined coin, there also is no correlation between the number of coins transferred and the number of mastercoin used to transfer.
Meanwhile nobody here really addresses this issue.
Rather you folks want to claim that I don't get it, but never really address the issue.
The issue is plain and simple, why is there no correlation with the number of bitcoins in a transaction and the number of MSC transferred?
It is like you are creating and transferring MSC without paying any bitcoin costs.
So where is the scarcity here? If MSC has no scarcity built in, then where is the value? Simple economics.
Just because you can create endless amounts of user-defined coins, doesn't mean there isn't scarcity. User-defined coins are denominated in MSC and there are only 600,000 MSC. That is scarcity. I don't get your security concerns. Mastercoin is an encoded protocol just like bitcoin is. It is simply that the transactions are mined by bitcoin miners. This doesn't require a direct correlation between the two. The mastercoin algorithm ensures the integrity of transactions even if it is mined by bitcoin miners. It doesn't have to pay bitcoin costs for its mathematics to be correct. More broadly, must the mastercoin network pay any bitcoin costs when it provides another reason for the bitcoin protocol to exist? Isn't it likely that bitcoin will become a savings currency whilst mastercoin will be the transactions currency? Bitcoin miners will be glad of mastercoin in this event. |
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prophetx
Legendary
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Activity: 1666
Merit: 1010
he who has the gold makes the rules
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December 31, 2013, 11:48:47 AM
Last edit: December 31, 2013, 12:12:05 PM by prophetx |
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I think that you're trying to say that user-defined currencies do not create additional demand for Mastercoin, and thus do not increase its value.
It is true, to a certain extent. (They make Mastercoin more useful no more than they make Bitcoin more useful.)
Yes, this is precisely what I am getting at. SatoshiDice used Bitcoin to spam messages. Mastercoin appears to also exploit Bitcoin with no benefit to the transport currency.
However, you're missing that demand for mastercoins can come from other directions: mastercoin provides features which work only for mastercoin-based currencies, and mastercoin is probably the biggest mastercoin-based currency, so people will use it.
Particularly, escrow-based currencies and CFDs: when/if these features will be in use, you'll need some mastercoins to use as an escrow/collateral for CFD. If there is a large CFD market, (e.g. suppose it requires $1B of value in collateral), mastercoin "market cap" will also be large.
However this is no different from someone issuing his own currency using an Open Transaction (OT) server. I can get the kind of escrow functionality mastercoin can dream of today. You seem to be missing the fact that mastercoin itself will be used as a currency. Would you rather use Mastercoin which has $200M market cap, or some shoddy "user defined coins"?
"User defined coins" is not the only feature.
That is not the point of "user defined coins", these could be company stock, bonds or other instruments that back real world assets like gold. They derive their value from the entity that issued them. Furthermore, the Mastercoin market cap is at present not based on an efficient market. Let's see how it reacts when placed into a real exchange. Let's see how Mastercoin survives in the real world where people are always trying to game the system. This could go all crumbling down via a double spending attack. Let's see if any exchange with a lot of BTC to lose will trust this coin in their exchange. bitcoin is not an efficient market either... and it could all come tumbling down tomorrow as real researchers with phd's have pointed out. but it hasn't; at least not yet. people are already trying to game the system... this was discussed a while back I believe it was someone who calculated that confirmation power of 3 bitcoin confirms equals 2.5 for mastercoin. (i'm recalling this from memory so someone feel free to look it up and correct me) anyway so one simply needs to wait 7 or 8 blocks, the role of the protocol does not include enabling high frequency crack trading. user currencies are separate in the spec from smart properties which could be stocks, bonds, etc. the benefit to bitcoin miners is that as more tx happen on the blockchain, they will get more fees for higher value economic transactions. for example me trading a stock is a lot more important to me than gambling away some money, therefore i am willing to pay a price premium. assuming of course that i am a rational market actor and not an irrational compulsive gambler. |
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prophetx
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he who has the gold makes the rules
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December 31, 2013, 12:15:05 PM |
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marcelus
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December 31, 2013, 12:35:07 PM |
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bitcoin is not an efficient market either... and it could all come tumbling down tomorrow as real researchers with phd's have pointed out. but it hasn't; at least not yet.
people are already trying to game the system... this was discussed a while back I believe it was someone who calculated that confirmation power of 3 bitcoin confirms equals 2.5 for mastercoin. (i'm recalling this from memory so someone feel free to look it up and correct me) anyway so one simply needs to wait 7 or 8 blocks, the role of the protocol does not include enabling high frequency crack trading.
This was said by JR in a debate with killerstorm on reddit. I don't think there has been meaningful research done on it.
user currencies are separate in the spec from smart properties which could be stocks, bonds, etc.
Ah OK I misunderstood the nomenclature then. |
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Tachikoma
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December 31, 2013, 12:37:09 PM |
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Wow you beat me to it! The last few weeks have been crazy but I'm happy I can finally let the world know I will be spending more time on Mastercoin in the following months  |
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superfluouso
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December 31, 2013, 05:06:00 PM |
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Excellent news! Congrats to both of you. Welcome to the project Jeffrey and thanks for bringing your skills to the cause!
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Voodah
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December 31, 2013, 06:45:41 PM |
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Wow you beat me to it! The last few weeks have been crazy but I'm happy I can finally let the world know I will be spending more time on Mastercoin in the following months Congratulations ! This is excellent news and long overdue. |
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marcelus
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December 31, 2013, 07:18:50 PM |
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Wow you beat me to it! The last few weeks have been crazy but I'm happy I can finally let the world know I will be spending more time on Mastercoin in the following months Excellent |
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udecker
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December 31, 2013, 07:40:11 PM |
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Wow you beat me to it! The last few weeks have been crazy but I'm happy I can finally let the world know I will be spending more time on Mastercoin in the following months Maran, congrats to you and Jeffrey! This project will be greatly benefitted by your full-time involvement. Looking forward to seeing the great things you’ll accomplish! |
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eXclusiveOR
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Activity: 60
Merit: 1
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December 31, 2013, 08:24:41 PM |
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On masterxchange and other websites it looks like MSC/BTC is traded regularly. But when I look for an MSC wallet all of them are coming with a lot of warnings about being experimental and how only wallets with small amounts for testing should be used with them.
Despite their alpha status, is anybody here using one of the wallets to send MSC frequently and can say something about stability of these wallets? Which wallet has failed on you, which one was reliable so far? Any experiences?
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Patel
Legendary
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Activity: 1321
Merit: 1007
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December 31, 2013, 08:26:16 PM |
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On masterxchange and other websites it looks like MSC/BTC is traded regularly. But when I look for an MSC wallet all of them are coming with a lot of warnings about being experimental and how only wallets with small amounts for testing should be used with them.
Despite their alpha status, is anybody here using one of the wallets to send MSC frequently and can say something about stability of these wallets? Which wallet has failed on you, which one was reliable so far? Any experiences?
A mastercoin wallet is a bitcoin address. And sending/receiving is working fine |
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eXclusiveOR
Jr. Member
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Activity: 60
Merit: 1
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December 31, 2013, 08:27:05 PM |
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On masterxchange and other websites it looks like MSC/BTC is traded regularly. But when I look for an MSC wallet all of them are coming with a lot of warnings about being experimental and how only wallets with small amounts for testing should be used with them.
Despite their alpha status, is anybody here using one of the wallets to send MSC frequently and can say something about stability of these wallets? Which wallet has failed on you, which one was reliable so far? Any experiences?
What do you mean by wallet? A mastercoin wallet is a bitcoin address. And sending/receiving is working fine |
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Patel
Legendary
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Activity: 1321
Merit: 1007
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December 31, 2013, 08:29:08 PM |
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On masterxchange and other websites it looks like MSC/BTC is traded regularly. But when I look for an MSC wallet all of them are coming with a lot of warnings about being experimental and how only wallets with small amounts for testing should be used with them.
Despite their alpha status, is anybody here using one of the wallets to send MSC frequently and can say something about stability of these wallets? Which wallet has failed on you, which one was reliable so far? Any experiences?
What do you mean by wallet? A mastercoin wallet is a bitcoin address. And sending/receiving is working fine I dont think anyone is using those wallets. Majority of the people are just storing their MSC on their own bitcoin addresses. |
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eXclusiveOR
Jr. Member
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Activity: 60
Merit: 1
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December 31, 2013, 08:38:28 PM |
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On masterxchange and other websites it looks like MSC/BTC is traded regularly. But when I look for an MSC wallet all of them are coming with a lot of warnings about being experimental and how only wallets with small amounts for testing should be used with them.
Despite their alpha status, is anybody here using one of the wallets to send MSC frequently and can say something about stability of these wallets? Which wallet has failed on you, which one was reliable so far? Any experiences?
What do you mean by wallet? A mastercoin wallet is a bitcoin address. And sending/receiving is working fine I dont think anyone is using those wallets. Majority of the people are just storing their MSC on their own bitcoin addresses. Mh, what about https://masterchain.info/ then? It's the first option being listed here. |
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Patel
Legendary
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Activity: 1321
Merit: 1007
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December 31, 2013, 08:49:57 PM |
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On masterxchange and other websites it looks like MSC/BTC is traded regularly. But when I look for an MSC wallet all of them are coming with a lot of warnings about being experimental and how only wallets with small amounts for testing should be used with them.
Despite their alpha status, is anybody here using one of the wallets to send MSC frequently and can say something about stability of these wallets? Which wallet has failed on you, which one was reliable so far? Any experiences?
What do you mean by wallet? A mastercoin wallet is a bitcoin address. And sending/receiving is working fine I dont think anyone is using those wallets. Majority of the people are just storing their MSC on their own bitcoin addresses. Mh, what about https://masterchain.info/ then? It's the first option being listed here. yeah but you can just use mastercoinadvisor.exe to send MSC, Why would you want to keep your MSC on a webwallet instead of your own private key? |
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eXclusiveOR
Jr. Member
Offline
Activity: 60
Merit: 1
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December 31, 2013, 09:01:30 PM |
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On masterxchange and other websites it looks like MSC/BTC is traded regularly. But when I look for an MSC wallet all of them are coming with a lot of warnings about being experimental and how only wallets with small amounts for testing should be used with them.
Despite their alpha status, is anybody here using one of the wallets to send MSC frequently and can say something about stability of these wallets? Which wallet has failed on you, which one was reliable so far? Any experiences?
What do you mean by wallet? A mastercoin wallet is a bitcoin address. And sending/receiving is working fine I dont think anyone is using those wallets. Majority of the people are just storing their MSC on their own bitcoin addresses. Mh, what about https://masterchain.info/ then? It's the first option being listed here. yeah but you can just use mastercoinadvisor.exe to send MSC, Why would you want to keep your MSC on a webwallet instead of your own private key? I am just curious about how people are doing their MSC transactions, maybe someone else has a different opinion on this (I personally don't like web wallets either, but they exist and are being used, so there obviously are people who want to use them). And as long as there is no nice and clean GUI for MSC transactions its usage will be limited mostly to tech-savvy users. So I am curious whether there is already a promising candidate for filling this gap or we are still at the very beginning. |
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hl5460
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news.8btc.com
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December 31, 2013, 10:25:28 PM |
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 Mastercoin exposed on CCTV. With comments: Mastercoin born in Sep 2013. Integrated into the core protocol of BTC. More secure and more flexible in transaction. The current price for MSC is 180.25 USD. Screenshot taken by Really Li. video: http://cctv.cntv.cn/lm/huanqiucaijinglianxian/index.shtml |
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ninjaboon
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Activity: 2114
Merit: 1002
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January 01, 2014, 04:51:31 AM |
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Mastercoin exposed on CCTV. With comments: Mastercoin born in Sep 2013. Integrated into the core protocol of BTC. More secure and more flexible in transaction. The current price for MSC is 180.25 USD. Screenshot taken by Really Li. video: http://cctv.cntv.cn/lm/huanqiucaijinglianxian/index.shtmlwow, posted this info to my whatsapp group, over 200 people in it. |
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niner
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Activity: 189
Merit: 100
You are here ---------> but you're not all there.
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January 01, 2014, 05:09:15 AM |
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crypto-coverage starts at 08:00 in the video
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