YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[Bitcoinorama]

Truly, it shows the level of research people are willing to do before investing in these companies, or anything of that matter is none. None at all.

 Between this comment, and your unwavering support for KNC, I'm beginning to have a hard time taking anything you say here seriously.

...Orrrr you misunderstand what I'm referring to Xian, think about it;

- We've had weeks if not months of people demanding a refund from Butterfly Labs.

- They've been told no, that's it. That's all, 'told' no, and accepted it as gospel. They haven't until now made any attempt to call their card issuer. No one. No one out of the thousands that have paid by card and are complaining they can't get a refund because BFL 'told them no'.

The absolute first thing I did once KnC started looking serious was insist they accept card payment as I knew part of the reason crazy credit card APR exists is to cover me against fraud. It's a compelling sales offer they entice you with to apply for the damn things. "Apply now, be protected abroad, you're insured against fraud, attractive rates", yadda, yadda...

I then rang my issuing bank and explained exactly what the purchase was for and that it was a pre-order with anticipated delivery in the future. They said as long as I take delivery with six years I'm covered. I'm protected in the UK by the consumer credit act, section 75, google it. Some banks except themselves because they say third party payment processes such as Paypal and Amazon negate this. So once again, I rang and checked as Paypal were exceptionally useless on the phone. My ccard issuing bank, Barclays says my card is covered by Paypal, the first 45 days and they they will uphold any dispute themselves after that period. That I can request a refund from them. For sure Amex does this as well.

Because of this I can kick back, relax, enjoy the show and be positive towards KnC without worrying about fraud.

It's totally upto you whether you want to take me seriously or not Xian, I detailed this in the KnC thread at the time I found this out, there's pages as KS was trying is hardest to tell me this wasn't the case until I rang and checked for myself.

That's all I'm asking anyone to do, check for themselves. Out of the thousands that paid for their units by credit card, I cannot believe no one has rang their card issuer and just accepte this treatment of being held hostage. It's nuts!!

I cannot believe people have been taking BFL's no refund policy at face value. If you paid by a credit card (not debit) call your issuing bank and check. You'll more than likely have a welcome surprise, although someone said this may not be the case in Germany.

Sincerely I'm trying to be helpful. If I placed you on a chair, in a room, left the door open, but 'told you' it was closed and left you there to starve. Would you just stay sat?! You pay big ccard fees for this...

[k9quaint]

all this in bitcoin forum wow

where is the meme BTC >>> paypal, paypal sucks, bitcoin will kill paypal...... etc etc


so to get this correct for BFL case paypal is better payment solution compared to bitcoin

If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal.

[bvt]

Please share your emails + language in a public gist.

This was my e-mail to fraud@paypal.com :

Hi,

I used PayPal to place a pre-order with Butterfly Labs on xx-xx-xx for $xxx.xx.
   
This order has still not been filled.  

I politely requested a refund on xx-xx-xx and was declined on xx-xx-xx.

Today I filed Dispute #PP-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx.  This dispute was closed for being outside the 45-day window.  

The seller has violated your terms of service which clearly state that the seller "Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase".

The seller is continuing to accept pre-orders for a product that they can not ship within any reasonable amount of time. In fact, they do not even pretend to be honoring your 20-day limit.

I have been a PayPal customer for x years.  While I realize that this payment is beyond the 45-day limit, I believe PayPal should honor my request for a refund as the seller is still using PayPal to receive pre-order payments in a manner that clearly violates your terms of service.  

Many people may be harmed financially by this seller if PayPal doesn't step in.

Regards,

Me

Good job. I wish every customer was as precise and calm in their correspondence with customer support / or any company in direct contact with customers.

I'm wondering if Paypal is starting to see a pattern and getting ready to sever ties with BFL. Even though Paypal gets a lot of flak by the Bitcoin community, it's nice to see them follow through on a case like this.

[Xialla]

all this in bitcoin forum wow

where is the meme BTC >>> paypal, paypal sucks, bitcoin will kill paypal...... etc etc


so to get this correct for BFL case paypal is better payment solution compared to bitcoin

If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal.

haha, statements based on IF.)) please stop, he is right, just admit it.

[umaOuma]

all this in bitcoin forum wow

where is the meme BTC >>> paypal, paypal sucks, bitcoin will kill paypal...... etc etc


so to get this correct for BFL case paypal is better payment solution compared to bitcoin

If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal.

If BFL did escrow, there wouldnt be BFL ASIC unit

[Bitcoinorama]

all this in bitcoin forum wow

where is the meme BTC >>> paypal, paypal sucks, bitcoin will kill paypal...... etc etc


so to get this correct for BFL case paypal is better payment solution compared to bitcoin

If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal.

No. BFL wouldn't be able to fund NRE costs associated with development if funds were held. Anyway Paypal is an escrow of sorts. PayPal are only refunding as it's a waste of cash spent on employees to focus time on individual transactions that amount to a small percentage fee to them. In the grand scheme they would rather keep buyers happy and have repeat business. Something a lot of these mining companies don't appear to have considered themselves...

[k9quaint]

all this in bitcoin forum wow

where is the meme BTC >>> paypal, paypal sucks, bitcoin will kill paypal...... etc etc


so to get this correct for BFL case paypal is better payment solution compared to bitcoin

If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal.

haha, statements based on IF.)) please stop, he is right, just admit it.

Comparing BTC to Paypal is apples to oranges. They are both fruit, but the similarity ends there.
BTC is only a payments ledger. In Bitcoin there is no insurance, or charge-backs, or customer service, or direct link to merchant and consumer banking, as there is in Paypal. It is like comparing IP to HTTPS.

My point was that a feature could be added on top of the Bitcoin platform (escrow) that would have made BTC a better option than Paypal for purchasing BFL. The reason I make this point is so that in the future, less people get BFL'd when buying things with Bitcoin.

But the original poster was correct in saying using Paypal was a better idea than using just Bitcoin to buy BFL.

[Ytterbium]

Right, with bitcoin there is room for a 3rd party payments provider that can provide some protection for chargebacks if things go wrong.

The problem, of course is that if someone does a chargback with real money, the CC company can just reach into their bank account and take the money out.  There's no way to do that with bitcoin.  If things go really wrong you can sue and ultimately get your money back that way, too.

Anyway, with KnC there is a refund process, everyone who has posted about requesting a refund has gotten one with no issues coming, either with fiat or BTC.

Unlike BFL, KnC's refund policy is to refund anyone their money until their unit ships.  Not until they "start shipping"  So you can cancel your order and get your money back up until the day that your product ships, even if you just want to cancel because the difficulty looks too high, or whatever.

Ultimately, in theory KnC might renig on their agreement, but that seems unlikely - as long as their chip designs work they can just mine with their own units and use that to pay for their BTC refunds.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

all this in bitcoin forum wow

where is the meme BTC >>> paypal, paypal sucks, bitcoin will kill paypal...... etc etc


so to get this correct for BFL case paypal is better payment solution compared to bitcoin

If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal.

If BFL did escrow, there wouldnt be BFL ASIC unit

Sure there would have been, for Josh adamantly stated that no pre-order moneys were ever used in the development of their ASIC line, going as far as stating that if every single person requested a refund, it'll be honored--Honest Abe.

The only reason BFL ended the refund period is that they went into Full Production mode on July 4, 2013, assembling and shipping 300+ units daily since. If that sentence is a lie, than Josh/BFL will be here to state otherwise, otherwise consider it gospel.

Now, Monumental Assholes, open your hymnals to page 42 and sing alone with me "Blockchain of Ages".

[scalar33]

IMHO, this is the bottom line:

BFL needs PayPal. If you want your money back, complain to PayPal and don't give up.

Good advice, I hope PayPal dumps them eventually.  BFL is probably more trouble than it's worth for them.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Get your money from BFL before they declare bankruptcy.

[Frizz23]

Good advice, I hope PayPal dumps them eventually.  BFL is probably more trouble than it's worth for them.

As it seems BFL is not happy with Paypal ("... fuck PayPal ...").

[vcsmith]

Just for the heck of it, I did a search for this thread's URL: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0

Apparently a link has been posted twice on BFL's forums, then deleted soon after. I wonder why?

[Lohoris]

For EU customer who ordered something to BFl, read this: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

Returning unwanted goods
7 days to cancel purchase for non-faulty goods
In the EU, you have the right to cancel your online purchase within seven working days.

This seven-day “cooling off” period begins on the day when you receive your purchase.

You can choose to cancel your order for any reason within this timeframe – even if you simply changed your mind.

The seller must give you a refund within 30 days. This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.

This applies whenever you buy goods outside a shop (for example by phone, fax, or mail order, as well as on the internet).

Although you have a right of refund, you will have to pay the postage costs of shipping goods bought online back to the seller.

I wonder if it would be considered legal (however unethical) to get the miner, use it for mining 7 days, then asking a refund (continuing to mine until it arrives), then send it back.
I'm not suggesting to do such a thing, just wondering.

[Garr255]

Alternatively you can berate Josh and get a forced refund.

+1

[Bitcoinorama]

For EU customer who ordered something to BFl, read this: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

Returning unwanted goods
7 days to cancel purchase for non-faulty goods
In the EU, you have the right to cancel your online purchase within seven working days.

This seven-day “cooling off” period begins on the day when you receive your purchase.

You can choose to cancel your order for any reason within this timeframe – even if you simply changed your mind.

The seller must give you a refund within 30 days. This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.

This applies whenever you buy goods outside a shop (for example by phone, fax, or mail order, as well as on the internet).

Although you have a right of refund, you will have to pay the postage costs of shipping goods bought online back to the seller.

I wonder if it would be considered legal (however unethical) to get the miner, use it for mining 7 days, then asking a refund (continuing to mine until it arrives), then send it back.
I'm not suggesting to do such a thing, just wondering.

You can choose to cancel your order for any reason within this timeframe – even if you simply changed your mind. So  answer is yes.
To give you an example, you want to buy an android phone to replace you iphone but after on day you don't like android, you can return the device.

My goal isn't to use the device, I want to be refund. If BFL wants to play the game to send me the unit and after I use the law to have my refund it is up to their.

We will see.

Unless you didn't pay by credit card, this would be an unnecessary expense to ship back and fourth on your part, let alone needlessly detrimental to the environment. Everyone who has paid should speak to their card's issuing bank, now. They have a lot more weight than Paypal in this matter. Paypal only refund as they don't want to waste employee time on a long drawn out dispute as it cost's them more time than the % commission gained from the sale. If they then have to cover the full amount, because Butterfly Labs won't honour a forced refund, they limit BFL. BFL don't want limiting, or to lose the Paypal brand as it's their main form of revenue and few other payment processors would touch pre-ordered tech, esp if they have a history of delays and non delivery. Paypal don't have to honour any refund outside of their 45 days, although they value your repeat business, where as ccard issuing banks may well have to dependant on where you are, your consumer protection laws, and/or what they promise you your exhorbitant credit card fees offer you interms of amount and length of protection.

[SirWizz]

I cannot believe people have been taking BFL's no refund policy at face value. If you paid by a credit card (not debit) call your issuing bank and check. You'll more than likely have a welcome surprise, although someone said this may not be the case in Germany.

Sincerely I'm trying to be helpful. If I placed you on a chair, in a room, left the door open, but 'told you' it was closed and left you there to starve. Would you just stay sat?! You pay big ccard fees for this...

I once read that someone shut down one of the highways entering a US state for a few hours simply by placing a big road sign that read "xxxxxxxx is closed" (I can't remember the name of the state). You'll have to get used to the idea (eventually) that a majority of people will happily take most things at face value. Unfortunately I don't think that critical thinking is on the curriculum much these days...

[Bitcoinorama]

I cannot believe people have been taking BFL's no refund policy at face value. If you paid by a credit card (not debit) call your issuing bank and check. You'll more than likely have a welcome surprise, although someone said this may not be the case in Germany.

Sincerely I'm trying to be helpful. If I placed you on a chair, in a room, left the door open, but 'told you' it was closed and left you there to starve. Would you just stay sat?! You pay big ccard fees for this...

I once read that someone shut down one of the highways entering a US state for a few hours simply by placing a big road sign that read "xxxxxxxx is closed" (I can't remember the name of the state). You'll have to get used to the idea (eventually) that a majority of people will happily take most things at face value. Unfortunately I don't think that critical thinking is on the curriculum much these days...

Haha, that's amusing unless emergency services or someone in dire need was impaired, alas I doubt most would query road signs on a highway, you kinda are meant to take them at face value, but if someone tried to rob a bank with a banana, would you still hand over the cash?

[codesuela]

bump, did not order anything there (neither at avalon or any other mining company) but BFL needs to go away and the executive staff needs to go to prison because it is clear cut scam and fraud.
I can't help but think that the people who ordered there are somewhat deserving of getting scammed, however I've personally been blinded by greed in the past and blaming the victim (BFL customers) is like blaming an old lady for falling for a 419. Oh wait wasn't that the reason why the BFL head fraudster (josh or something?) was indicted for (peddling a lotto service to old ladies and never ever performing the paid for service)?
Sounds familiar?
 I can only say it again: BFL is a scam and even if it is not (which I think is very unlikely) it's a company undeserving of your money and the only reason they are still around is because in Bitcoinland the tolerance for bullshit is unhealthily high.

[Lohoris]

I can't help but think that the people who ordered there are somewhat deserving of getting scammed, however I've personally been blinded by greed in the past and blaming the victim (BFL customers) is like blaming an old lady for falling for a 419. Oh wait wasn't that the reason why the BFL head fraudster (josh or something?) was indicted for (peddling a lotto service to old ladies and never ever performing the paid for service)?
Sounds familiar?
I can only say it again: BFL is a scam and even if it is not (which I think is very unlikely) it's a company undeserving of your money and the only reason they are still around is because in Bitcoinland the tolerance for bullshit is unhealthily high.

Old ladies are... old.
Most people here have no such excuse.
Every one of them is to blame for the future scams the scammers will do, since they de facto encouraged him, and financed him, willingly.