YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[Stack]

IMHO, this is the bottom line:

BFL needs PayPal. If you want your money back, complain to PayPal and don't give up.

^^ THIS

BFL's power has come from its superior appearance to the new and upcoming miners, who don't know any better than to search google for mining hardware, and where do they end up? BFL. No legitimate manufacturer has a highly ranked pretty front-page taking small unit orders via credit card like BFL do.

Get their paypal account frozen, cut off the supply, kill the company.

At the start BFL may have received many bitcoin payments... but these days nobody who has bitcoin would send it to BFL, they're getting their money from paypal from newcomers hearing about bitcoin and want to have a punt at mining - who in turn are getting scammed and thus spreading a perception that bitcoin is a scam. Personally I don't care to get my money back - but I do care to kill BFL - they have to be stopped.

[Lohoris]

but these days nobody who has bitcoin would send it to BFL

You are overestimating people.

Their paypal account should be shut down, sure, but once we manage to do that, there will be full of retards paying them bitcoins.
It's the same kind of people who still think they will deliver.
Retards will retard will retard, there's not much you can do, besides sterilising them.

[PuertoLibre]

but these days nobody who has bitcoin would send it to BFL

You are overestimating people.

Their paypal account should be shut down, sure, but once we manage to do that, there will be full of retards paying them bitcoins.
It's the same kind of people who still think they will deliver.
Retards will retard will retard, there's not much you can do, besides sterilising them.

Sterilize them financially?

[Lohoris]

You are overestimating people.

Their paypal account should be shut down, sure, but once we manage to do that, there will be full of retards paying them bitcoins.
It's the same kind of people who still think they will deliver.
Retards will retard will retard, there's not much you can do, besides sterilising them.

Sterilize them financially?

Wouldn't work, they would still reproduce, doesn't matter they can't afford it.

Besides, if you're son of two idiots, I doubt it matters much if you're rich or poor, chances are you'll be grown as an idiot too.

[Threader]

I have carefully combed through this thread for exactly what are the TOS that BFL are violating. I didn't find it. I combed through Paypals website for TOS that BFL inc is violating like not delivering goods or providing a specific delivery/shipping date and still could not find it.

So before I look like a duffus when Paypal asks me exactly what TOS BFL inc is not complying with can someone please tell us in black in white right here? I'm about to contact their legal department.

[PuertoLibre]

I have carefully combed through this thread for exactly what are the TOS that BFL are violating. I didn't find it. I combed through Paypals website for TOS that BFL inc is violating like not delivering goods or providing a specific delivery/shipping date and still could not find it.

So before I look like a duffus when Paypal asks me exactly what TOS BFL inc is not complying with can someone please tell us in black in white right here? I'm about to contact their legal department.

For the full terms click below.
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/Legal_Hub_full

For rules specific to pre-orders:

Click: Am I allowed to presell?

https://www.paypal-businesscenter.com/content/presale-policy-and-reserves

Edit: https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full?

Prohibited Activities---> in number 3.(d)

(d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item (such as pre-sale items,

[Syke]

I have carefully combed through this thread for exactly what are the TOS that BFL are violating. I didn't find it. I combed through Paypals website for TOS that BFL inc is violating like not delivering goods or providing a specific delivery/shipping date and still could not find it.

So before I look like a duffus when Paypal asks me exactly what TOS BFL inc is not complying with can someone please tell us in black in white right here? I'm about to contact their legal department.

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/helpcenter/article/?solutionId=39067&topicID=11500005&m=TCI

Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.

I'm not sure, but "2 months or more" may not meet the 20 day requirement. What do you think?

[BTCscraper]

I'm not sure, but "2 months or more" may not meet the 20 day requirement. What do you think?

They could certainly change it to "2 weeks™ or more".  Still wouldn't meet the FTC rule of "definite shipping date" though.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Unless Josh is a liar, he has shown exactly how you can get a refund.

July 19, 2013, 10:13:28 AM: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2762435#msg2762435

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

September 20, 2012, 03:15:29 PM: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110290.msg1207625#msg1207625

Thanks, you're right, vote with your BTC!  

1) That wasn't a straw man, I was condensing and restating his desires so far.  If they are incorrect, I wait for him to correct me and describe how what I've said is incorrect.
2) It's not, however, when there's an irate, irrational customer, it's best to fire them.  It costs more to deal with problem customers than the profit you make, so it makes more economic sense to part ways from a business perspective.  If people are unhappy, we will gladly issue a refund, because it takes far more time and effort to deal with the constant stream of complaints, most being imaginary or blown out of proportion, than it does to just refund the money and move on.  When the rare instance comes along with the complaint is legitimate and scaled properly, we are glad to deal with that.

So unfortunately, in cases like these, all the "money we'll be making" is less than all the money we'll be losing trying to satisfy people who just can't be satisfied, and believe me, there are a lot of them on this forum.

Huh, I never considered the fact that even if everyone canceled, we would still have the hashing power, but you're right.  That thought does not sit well with me though, I definitely do not want BFL or any single entity to have that much hashing power under one roof, jeez.  That would be a nightmare.

[/size]

vvv December 14, 2012, 09:33:50 PM vvv

As Josh's role in the production cycle doesn't begin until it's time for the chips to be sliced and packaged, it's easy to see that he mightn't have been kept up to date on every little thing which has been going on up until now and has been making statements based on assumptions he's drawn from what information was available to him rather than hard facts.

Seeing as Josh's role is Public Relations / Investor Relations and not head of slicing and packaging I find it hard to believe that he was left out of the loop on that one. Seems in his role at BFL he should be made aware of all those pesky little details....

Hey, where'd you hear that?  Why wasn't I informed of this?  Argh!

PS - My job is not PR or investor relations, which is why I don't coddle idiots like Frizz and PuertoLibre when they display their stupidity over and over.  If I were the PR guy, I'd have to tell them warm fuzzies and make them feel good about themselves.  Thankfully, my job is much different and it involves firing "customers" like Frizz et al because they cost far more than they generate in revenue and we do not want them as customers.  Ever.

Obviously, the Fire-Your-Customer program was still in play according to Josh on July 19, 2013. Butterfly Labs takes this very seriously, otherwise they wouldn't have stated such from their playbook three times, once since being in Full Production.

Since profit has been, and still is the name of the game, it's more profitable for BF Labs Inc. to fire each and every customer that becomes a burden to them. They can not afford to man the telephone lines with customers, the PayPal fraud department, credit card companies, BitPay, banks, etc., over something so mundane as a pesky refund, of which is just sitting there in reserve doing absolutely nothing until the item is shipped anyway.

I suggest calling first and being nice, kindly asking BFL to be fired as a customer. When they refuse, call them back the next day. Then the next. Then the next. Have your friends and family call, kindly asking that you get fired as a customer.

But, if BFL is TRULY worth their salt, they will fire you by the second or third call, for they know, and have proven that it works, that maintaining you as a customer for the next several months will only eat into their so thin profit margins, thus better to end the ties ASAP.

In closing, the very next time BFL refuses to fire their customer, everybody will know that they truly are a scam because a trustworthy company would not go out of their way to drive their core belief home, then later change that belief system to only suit their current needs and not their still loyal customer base. It sends the wrong message.

Honestly, I support BFL in them implementing and maintaining this policy. It takes guts to do this. And Josh is the perfect guy to make sure that the policy continues.

Well played, Josh! Well played!

All those in support of BFL to continue this wonderful policy, please quote this post and concur. The more the merrier. Heaven forbid if they end the one program that allows them to keep as much profit in their coffers as possible, coupled with probably the only thing BFL is doing that makes logical sense.

[millsdmb]

I recently received a full refund from BFL for an order I placed several months ago.

I know, I know, BFL claims that "all sales are final".  Well, there's "final", and then there's "final"...

It took a month, but here's what worked for me:

• I sent an email to office@butterflylabs.com in which I politely requested a refund.
• About a week later, I received a reply from BFL denying my request.
• I filed a dispute with PayPal. In this dispute I noted that BFL failed to deliver, denied my refund request, and violated PayPal's Terms of Service for pre-order sales.
• PayPal closed my dispute the same day, stating that I was outside the 45-day window.
• I called PayPal's customer service and complained about my dispute being closed, and explained to PayPal exactly how BFL is violating the ToS.
• I sent an email to fraud@paypal.com in which I listed my transaction and dispute number, and explained how BFL is violating the ToS.
• A few days later, a PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor called me on the phone. He had already spoken to BFL and assured me that BFL would be contacting me. I told him that I just wanted a refund, and explained to him how BFL is violating the ToS.
• I waited a week to give BFL plenty of time to contact me.  They didn't.
• I emailed the PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor and told him that BFL had not contacted me. He seemed shocked. I wasn't. He told me that PayPal could take action against BFL if necessary.
• The PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor escalated my dispute to the next level (whatever that is).  He told me that someone else would call.
• The next day I received a call from a guy named Bruce at BFL. He told me that since I had complained to PayPal, BFL was placing my order "under review" and taking it out of the queue. From his tone, I got the impression that Bruce thought this would bother me. I told him that I didn't need a review, I just wanted my money back. He wouldn't give me a firm answer and just kept repeating that they were placing my order "under review" and taking it out of the queue. I even asked if this review would take a day, week, month, or year. No answer, just the same "under review" statement.
• Within 5 minutes of BFL's call, an Account Representative from PayPal called. I told her about the strange conversation with Bruce. She said that she would contact BFL again.
  
• My payment to BFL was refunded to my PayPal account the next business day.

IMHO, this is the bottom line:

BFL needs PayPal. If you want your money back, complain to PayPal and don't give up.

just a feedback on my paypal claim, it is the answer:

When you pay with PayPal, you have buyer protection till 45 days after the tranaction been made. I see that you tried to open a claim. Because of the above reason this case got automaticly closed directly.

I'm very sorry to inform you that we can't do anything about this matter. Even when the seller informs you that the delivery time can take up till 2 months, you should have opened a claim before the 45 days.

As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.

The only thing you could you, is go to the police. The police can contact us and we can inform him about the account information.

Please let us know if you require any further assistance.

Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.

[Bitcoinorama]

Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.

Well done Mills out of my utter exhaustion of trying to labour this point across to all those who claim to be held hostage, you are the absolute first person to fully comprehend this concept.

If there's nothing more than being held hostage by a company that deny's you a refund they enjoy, it's spending hours editing forms online with Paypal that never get read, receiving bog standard cut and paste responses, or talking to Paypal customer service agents that have no power to 'escalate claims' as there is a form to fill in for that.

Personally chasing your tail sucks.

[01BTC10]

As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.

[Flying Hellfish]

Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.

Well done Mills out of my utter exhaustion of trying to labour this point across to all those who claim to be held hostage, you are the absolute first person to fully comprehend this concept.

If there's nothing more than being held hostage by a company that deny's you a refund they enjoy, it's spending hours editing forms online with Paypal that never get read, receiving bog standard cut and paste responses, or talking to Paypal customer service agents that have no power to 'escalate claims' as there is a form to fill in for that.

Personally chasing your tail sucks.

As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.


It appears as though he paid with his PP balance and not a CC, so maybe the point you accuse him of not understanding is not applicable here?

That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds).  Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.

[dudeofthestick]

Ok, more news from PayPal guys in Europe.

I talked to an account manager this morning and he told me that the problem of the 45 days has to do with the insurance of every single transaction people do. After the 45 days period, he told me to directly call the Police. Paypal encourages users to call the Police after this 45 days period.

I asked him if it would work (heck, I'm in Madrid-Spain) and told me yes, it works between Europe and USA.

It seems that the BFL account in PayPal is under the name of Mr. Vlissides, and has something like a 'special' account manager. They will report my case directly to BFL account manager this afternoon.

But the guy here was clear: call the Police NOW.

So, if in 48 hours I don't get a valid response from BFL or PayPal, I will report it to the Grupo de Delitos Telemáticos: https://www.gdt.guardiacivil.es/webgdt/home_alerta.php

And I think that everybody should do the same.

[vcsmith]

I have carefully combed through this thread for exactly what are the TOS that BFL are violating. I didn't find it. I combed through Paypals website for TOS that BFL inc is violating like not delivering goods or providing a specific delivery/shipping date and still could not find it.

So before I look like a duffus when Paypal asks me exactly what TOS BFL inc is not complying with can someone please tell us in black in white right here? I'm about to contact their legal department.

See below in red (copied and pasted from PayPal's site):

Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.

A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:

    Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.

[vcsmith]

That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds).  Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.

I agree.

I sent several e-mails (mainly to establish a paper trail), but I got farther with the phone calls. None of my PayPal calls were short, and I never accepted "no" as an answer.  In my opinion, phone calls and stubbornness are the keys.

[Bitcoinorama]

Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.

Well done Mills out of my utter exhaustion of trying to labour this point across to all those who claim to be held hostage, you are the absolute first person to fully comprehend this concept.

If there's nothing more than being held hostage by a company that deny's you a refund they enjoy, it's spending hours editing forms online with Paypal that never get read, receiving bog standard cut and paste responses, or talking to Paypal customer service agents that have no power to 'escalate claims' as there is a form to fill in for that.

Personally chasing your tail sucks.

As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.


It appears as though he paid with his PP balance and not a CC, so maybe the point you accuse him of not understanding is not applicable here?

That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds).  Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.

Sorry I only saw Millsdmb's comment. In which case you have to aim for the angle that Paypal partnered with a firm that doesn't satisfy their customer agreement...

[Bitcoinorama]

That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds).  Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.

I agree.

I sent several e-mails (mainly to establish a paper trail), but I got farther with the phone calls. None of my PayPal calls were short, and I never accepted "no" as an answer.  In my opinion, phone calls and stubbornness are the keys.

And patience! You need patience when speaking to anyone at Paypal, it's a lottery there whether you speak to anyone that wants to help you and more importantly can help you, most say it's not within their power and they will rarely ever let you speak with a manager, it's always submit a form on site from my experience...

[vcsmith]

That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds).  Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.

I agree.

I sent several e-mails (mainly to establish a paper trail), but I got farther with the phone calls. None of my PayPal calls were short, and I never accepted "no" as an answer.  In my opinion, phone calls and stubbornness are the keys.

And patience! You need patience when speaking to anyone at Paypal...

I agree with that as well. Had I written rude e-mails or yelled/cursed on the phone, then I doubt I would've had a reason to start this thread. One can be stubborn without being an ass.

BFL needs PayPal. If that relationship is broken...

[Bitcoinorama]

That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds).  Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.

I agree.

I sent several e-mails (mainly to establish a paper trail), but I got farther with the phone calls. None of my PayPal calls were short, and I never accepted "no" as an answer.  In my opinion, phone calls and stubbornness are the keys.

And patience! You need patience when speaking to anyone at Paypal...

I agree with that as well. Had I written rude e-mails or yelled/cursed on the phone, then I doubt I would've had a reason to start this thread. One can be stubborn without being an ass.

BFL needs PayPal. If that relationship is broken...

Yeah it's alright to have a little rant on a forum time to time, most people are thick skinned and will forgive here, but when you're answering phones for minimal wage or thereabouts and have dealt with 100's of people, most of which can't operate a computer and when your actual means of assistance is somewhat restricted by the powers that be at Paypal, you need to give these guys a break and be as thoughtful as possible if you wish to have some manners reciprocated. Most do want to help, it may take a few redials to catch that one guy or girl that's exceptional though, and with Bitcoin in the rise Paypal really needs to up their game in customer relations...