PuertoLibre
Legendary
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Activity: 1876
Merit: 1003
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August 07, 2013, 07:05:27 PM |
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? Paypal allows anyone with a credit card to pay using it as a funding source. I have never heard of any type of actual restrictions you could use to prevent it from happening. |
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pacojones
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August 07, 2013, 07:12:23 PM |
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I don't know of any venture that was ever successful that didn't include some loss... every investor (I mean EVERY INVESTOR) in the history of the world has put money on the line (risky investments) in the hopes that they pay off and every one of them has lost money. It's the nature of the beast. The hope is that overall you make more good choices than bad choices!
Personally - I wish I would've stopped at 2 orders with BFL, the 3rd one is the only one that I regret... and I don't have any hardware yet, probably won't for another couple of months.
On the flip side, I get the impression that BFL is actually working really hard to get these orders out the door. Maybe they are afraid of the onslaught of credit card charge backs, paypal charge backs and threats of lawsuit; maybe they are trying to do right by their customers, who knows - have they made a lot of mistakes, yes; will they be around next year, who knows; will I buy from them again, no... are there hundreds or thousands of new customers who don't know any better, yup!
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Threader
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August 07, 2013, 07:14:56 PM
Last edit: August 07, 2013, 07:26:03 PM by Threader |
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Bingo - Took a while but here it is from the one and only.... 07-04-2013, 07:55 PM BFL_Josh "The point is that you agreed to the terms when you placed your order. We even reconfirmed with everyone several months ago and we have been issuing refunds since the start at the users request. Now, when we are committing resources to manufacture equipment in large volume and to do that we need to have a fairly accurate count of the parts we need. We have maintained all customer pre order funds available for refund since the beginning and contrary to what the troll elite on bitcointalk would have you believe, we did not use customer funds for R&D. As we ship product the funds are made available for operations and future products and development.People have had months and months to get a refund. At some point that had to stop. We are not a hedge for your bitcoin investment ; that is what the people asking for refunds now are using it as. We have been up front with our policy from day 1. To complain about it now is utterly ludicrous." https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3675-refund-policy-2.htmlWow that's some contradiction "contrary to what the troll elite on bitcointalk would have you believe, we did not use customer funds for R&D." yet "As we ship product the funds are made available for operations and future products and development." So do use pre-order funds for R&D or Future Products and Development? Is that some sort of weirdo logic is it more of your Steve Jobs reality distortion field? Oh and BTW Butt Munch Josh, I am not and never have been using my BFL Pre-order in a Hedge for any bitcoin investment. I sent you THOUSANDS of my $$$$ and now have lost faith in BFL's ability to deliver. Meaning I DO NOT TRUST YOU or BFL to DELIVER. SO GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK. NOW. |
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Threader
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August 07, 2013, 07:40:49 PM |
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So basically from a few BFL_Josh threads from the BFL forums I have come to the understanding that the Refund policy had to change because too many people were coming to grips (including myself) that BFL were not going to deliver. Deliver in time or not at all. The hedging allegation from BFL is a smokescreen.
Perhaps refunds were awarded on a case by case basis depending on how you paid. If paid by paypal well no because there are now too many refund requests (obviously) and Paypal would shut down BFL's Paypal account due to excessive refunds.
Can anyone confirm they just recently (after No refund declaration from BFL) that they have easily gotten a refund for a BTC payment?
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Kouye
Sr. Member
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Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.
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August 07, 2013, 08:10:00 PM |
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The hedging allegation from BFL is a smokescreen.
FTFY. Read this "Boohoo, I'm being molested on the interwebs" post. He he listing the very 4 data that could just make the trolling stop, once and for all.Listing this information would be VERY easy for them, probably MUCH less a hassle than posting pay dates. How would it not be easier to know how many units they ship per day, rather than check the pay date for the last shiped unit of the day? So they are clearly, actively, spending energy to keep the smoke screen up. Final conclusion : They don't wanna make the trolling stop. Theory #1 : - Sonny/Josh are trying to sell the business off before the end of september. Theory #2 : - They are taking advantage of us not knowing the log depth to actually stall on shipping, sending off just 3 or 4 units a day to still get minimum public feedback, while getting ready for their new life in Cuba. |
[OVER] RIDDLES 2nd edition --- this was claimed. Look out for 3rd edition! I won't ever ask for a loan nor offer any escrow service. If I do, please consider my account as hacked. |
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Phinnaeus Gage
Legendary
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Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
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August 07, 2013, 08:53:27 PM |
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Phinnaeus Gage
Legendary
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Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
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August 07, 2013, 09:22:24 PM |
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So basically from a few BFL_Josh threads from the BFL forums I have come to the understanding that the Refund policy had to change because too many people were coming to grips (including myself) that BFL were not going to deliver. Deliver in time or not at all. The hedging allegation from BFL is a smokescreen.
Perhaps refunds were awarded on a case by case basis depending on how you paid. If paid by paypal well no because there are now too many refund requests (obviously) and Paypal would shut down BFL's Paypal account due to excessive refunds.
Can anyone confirm they just recently (after No refund declaration from BFL) that they have easily gotten a refund for a BTC payment?
From PayPal's point-o'-view, isn't a good faith refund, no matter how many, better in their eyes than 100's of customers complaining via their refund/fraud department. The results are virtually the same--refunds paid. If PP ToS states that no funds are to be used for the development of a product, and BFL clearly states that that's what the pre-order moneys are destined for, an automatic refund via PayPal should be granted without any further review. Anybody that believes that BFL is operating on the up-and-up without any missteps, sans the possibly acceptable common delays due to being in unfamiliar territory, is delusional at best, or working in concert with BFL in some capacity at worse. Since they opted to play with vinegar oppose to sugar, PG opts to maintain their chosen ph level. ~Bitcoin Elite Monumental Asshole (BEMA)~ |
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ryanb
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Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
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August 07, 2013, 09:57:50 PM |
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They added Dwolla now guys so you know dwolla has no reverse payment once you make your purchase that is it.
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Stack
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August 07, 2013, 10:00:39 PM |
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Fucking fantastic if it's true! PayPal finally listened. Shut these bastards down! |
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Phinnaeus Gage
Legendary
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Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
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August 07, 2013, 10:04:19 PM |
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Fucking fantastic if it's true! PayPal finally listened. Shut these bastards down! For the guy above who loves images:  |
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Threader
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August 07, 2013, 10:05:50 PM |
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On the other hand BFL will no longer have an incentive to refund my Pre-order now that the Paypal carrot is not in front of the donkey. Crap I'm torn
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Phinnaeus Gage
Legendary
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Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
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August 07, 2013, 10:11:16 PM |
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On the other hand BFL will no longer have an incentive to refund my Pre-order now that the Paypal carrot is not in front of the donkey. Crap I'm torn
One can always pay with...  |
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Phinnaeus Gage
Legendary
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Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
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August 07, 2013, 10:14:27 PM |
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Fucking fantastic if it's true! PayPal finally listened. Shut these bastards down!  |
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millsdmb
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August 07, 2013, 11:49:14 PM |
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BFL just shoulda done this thru kickstarter. IIRC, they don't even have to deliver a product on that site...or refund the money (although I think most do) Except kickstarter doesn't accept BTC, which I would never use to preorder an item unless I never expected it to be delivered or have my BTC back.
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Flying Hellfish
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Activity: 1764
Merit: 1756
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
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August 07, 2013, 11:54:34 PM |
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Fucking fantastic if it's true! PayPal finally listened. Shut these bastards down! It may be an isolated incident so ya if is the operative term at this point, but just for a minute imagine the sweet irony if PP decided to "fire" BFL as a customer LOL!!!!! |
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KGambler
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August 08, 2013, 12:09:45 AM |
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People struggling to get refunds should probably also call Sonny Vleisides' probation officer in order to let him know about the situation. BFL changing customers' order statuses to "shipped" in order to fool the customer and/or paypal is clearly fraudulent.
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Wonderbar
Newbie
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Activity: 21
Merit: 0
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August 08, 2013, 12:32:09 AM |
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I especially like the shipping updates! Everyday it moves further away from reality  http://bfl.ptz.ro/ lists the last shipment for orderdate 09/09/2012 for weeks now (well there is one other order marked as received bellow but i don´t think it is true). Guess the best bet for the whole BFL Team is to leave the country and operate the site for 1-2 more days from abroad. Guess some 1.000 people hunting them worldwide would be, well funny somehow  . I know such cases, people can´t disappear that easily, here in germany one guy even organised a bus tour (~1100km) to the new home of such a guy and aprox. 15 people payed him a visit. I heard they basically took all his expensive stuff (car for example) and sold it, but no one really knows what happened that day. |
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Stack
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August 08, 2013, 12:33:53 AM |
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BFL just shoulda done this thru kickstarter. IIRC, they don't even have to deliver a product on that site...or refund the money (although I think most do) Except kickstarter doesn't accept BTC, which I would never use to preorder an item unless I never expected it to be delivered or have my BTC back.
Actually kickstarter is very controlled nowadays. They interview each and every group that wants to start up with them, and make them sign legally binding contracts. Kickstarter will hold them to their word. They've done this to keep crowdfunding alive - since a few did abuse the system and trust was lost - other crowdfunding sites are yet to follow suit on this policing though. Hence why you see asic development projects and farming investments on other crowdfunding websites but not on kickstarter - because they're scams. |
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millsdmb
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August 08, 2013, 12:50:09 AM |
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People struggling to get refunds should probably also call Sonny Vleisides' probation officer in order to let him know about the situation. BFL changing customers' order statuses to "shipped" in order to fool the customer and/or paypal is clearly fraudulent.
even paypal would require proof (tracking #) of shipment in a dispute case. |
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