YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[bcp19]

IMHO ASICMiner has scammed more people out of their hard-earned BTC than you guys claim Sonny has, and he did it in such a way YOU'RE ACTUALLY HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!!!

The difference is big. BFL promised a product and didnt deliver it. ASICMiner released an overpriced product but it was delivered. There is no shame in that. Most people lost out in buying mining hardware, but at least ASICMiner delivered what people paid for. BFL have not, and their incompetence over the issue means it's not even worth to receive their goods now. If they'd released an imperfect product at least people could ROI. Most will not, and international customers, like those in the UK will have to pay extra import+VAT for these shitty products. It's not worth to receive them now, period.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with you that ASICMiner were scammers. BFL are 100% for sure and I really hope someone in the US gets them investigated. I am sure they have broken many laws (it's hard to to in an overregulated USA anyhow). BFL_Josh needs to see the inside of a jail for a few years, so he can think long and hard about his actions.

To be completely HONEST, BFL *is* delivering, they are just SLOW.  Until they have completely stopped shipping and run with the money, it is just your opinion that they are truly a scam.  I haven't seen them stop shipping yet, so the jury is still out.

ASICMiner used peoples greed against themselves to make huge profits on the USB devices that would not have earned RoI at 1/4 their original price and those people used even MORE peoples greed to bone them even further.

To me, ASICMINER is the guy who worked at Best Buy when they PS3 came out and was able to walk off with 50 units at cost instead of selling them to customers, and then turned around and sold them on ebay for 10 times their value.  I personally would not have paid over $15 for one of those cause I knew how badly he was screwing people.

@PuertoLibre:  Yes, Josh has stated that you can profit with these devices even at high difficulty.  AS HE EXPLAINED, he was talking COST OF ELECTRICITY VS VALUE OF BTC MINED.  Greed led people to believe RoI.  Perosnally, I believe the smart WILL attain RoI while the stupid bail out.  Time will tell.

AS to your doubt about ASICMiners' sales: As of Jun 7th, more than 4,000 USB miners had been sold.  8,000 BTC valued at almost 1 million dollars for a whopping 1.332 TH.  He sold less than an original MINIRIG for in excess of 1 million dollars.  Yet, he didn't scam a soul.

[PuertoLibre]

AS to your doubt about ASICMiners' sales: As of Jun 7th, more than 4,000 USB miners had been sold.  8,000 BTC valued at almost 1 million dollars for a whopping 1.332 TH.  He sold less than an original MINIRIG for in excess of 1 million dollars.  Yet, he didn't scam a soul.

I disagree.

Normally, I like Friedcat...but he knows what he is doing.

He created a market to sell miners past the brink of returns. He established distributors who could take those miners at unreasonable rates and resell them at an even higher unreasonable rate. (It's almost an MLM)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing

Just because someone IS stupid enough to buy it, does not mean you consciously should sell it to that person. There is nothing on this earth that will change my mind that Friedcat didn't know or do this with willing intention. There are plenty of distributors on this forum who will try to shut you up for saying that their practice is unethical.

Even now, he only lowered his prices because someone let the cat out of the bag. Otherwise blades would be selling for 40 BTC and USB models for about 2 BTC still.

[bcp19]

AS to your doubt about ASICMiners' sales: As of Jun 7th, more than 4,000 USB miners had been sold.  8,000 BTC valued at almost 1 million dollars for a whopping 1.332 TH.  He sold less than an original MINIRIG for in excess of 1 million dollars.  Yet, he didn't scam a soul.

I disagree.

Normally, I like Friedcat...but he knows what he is doing.

He created a market to sell miners past the brink of returns. He established distributors who could take those miners at unreasonable rates and resell them at an even higher unreasonable rate. (It's almost an MLM)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing

Just because someone IS stupid enough to buy it, does not mean you consciously should. There is nothing on this earth that will change my mind that Friedcat didn't know or do this with willing intention.

Even now, he only lowered his prices because someone let the cat out of the bag. Otherwise blades would be selling for 40 BTC and USB models for about 2 BTC still.

You just confused me, are you saying you disagree that "he didn't scam a soul", so that you agree that he DID scam?

[PuertoLibre]

Alot of people on this forum think it is perfectly alright to mine the crap out of their miner and when it stops being useful...go to ebay and sell it to some retard for an enormous amount of money.

There is always some idiot who will. Then they come on here and claim "it is all good" what they just did.

There ain't a moral bone in their body.

[PuertoLibre]

You just confused me, are you saying you disagree that "he didn't scam a soul", so that you agree that he DID scam?

I am saying, I believe he made a network full of scammers.

That is why he could end up with most of the profits and each distributor with their own portion of ill gotten gains.

They sold a product that didn't do it's ultimate intended purpose in an effective way.

[k9quaint]

IMHO ASICMiner has scammed more people out of their hard-earned BTC than you guys claim Sonny has, and he did it in such a way YOU'RE ACTUALLY HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!!!

The difference is big. BFL promised a product and didnt deliver it. ASICMiner released an overpriced product but it was delivered. There is no shame in that. Most people lost out in buying mining hardware, but at least ASICMiner delivered what people paid for. BFL have not, and their incompetence over the issue means it's not even worth to receive their goods now. If they'd released an imperfect product at least people could ROI. Most will not, and international customers, like those in the UK will have to pay extra import+VAT for these shitty products. It's not worth to receive them now, period.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with you that ASICMiner were scammers. BFL are 100% for sure and I really hope someone in the US gets them investigated. I am sure they have broken many laws (it's hard to to in an overregulated USA anyhow). BFL_Josh needs to see the inside of a jail for a few years, so he can think long and hard about his actions.

To be completely HONEST, BFL *is* delivering, they are just SLOW.  Until they have completely stopped shipping and run with the money, it is just your opinion that they are truly a scam.  I haven't seen them stop shipping yet, so the jury is still out.

ASICMiner used peoples greed against themselves to make huge profits on the USB devices that would not have earned RoI at 1/4 their original price and those people used even MORE peoples greed to bone them even further.

To me, ASICMINER is the guy who worked at Best Buy when they PS3 came out and was able to walk off with 50 units at cost instead of selling them to customers, and then turned around and sold them on ebay for 10 times their value.  I personally would not have paid over $15 for one of those cause I knew how badly he was screwing people.

@PuertoLibre:  Yes, Josh has stated that you can profit with these devices even at high difficulty.  AS HE EXPLAINED, he was talking COST OF ELECTRICITY VS VALUE OF BTC MINED.  Greed led people to believe RoI.  Perosnally, I believe the smart WILL attain RoI while the stupid bail out.  Time will tell.

AS to your doubt about ASICMiners' sales: As of Jun 7th, more than 4,000 USB miners had been sold.  8,000 BTC valued at almost 1 million dollars for a whopping 1.332 TH.  He sold less than an original MINIRIG for in excess of 1 million dollars.  Yet, he didn't scam a soul.

All of those people who ordered ASICMiner actually received their devices within days of ordering them. ASICMiner only sold what they had in stock.
Greed led people to believe they would receive ROI in every ASIC purchase. A miner's greed is not BFL's fault, nor is it ASICMiners fault. However, with ASICMiner all the customers received their devices. 85% of BFL's ordered hash rate is still waiting to receive anything (I am sure by now some percentage of that has asked for refunds). Shipping slow is actually worse in this case than shipping with lower hash rate. People should have preferred 2.5GH/s back in April over 5 GH/s now.
I would have been far better disposed towards BFL if they admitted that they could only deliver 50% of what was promised, but could deliver it back in April.

@PuertoLibre: Auctioning something on Ebay when you are done with it is not immoral. Creating a marketing scheme to paint a rosy picture of a bleak scenario in order to move product at inflated prices is immoral. The reason ASICMiner was able to sell so many units at such a crazy price was because of the pent up demand for ASICs. This was due to Avalon and BFL being unable to deliver product to the marketplace. They could take orders, but they couldn't ship them in time to keep up with demand. ASICminer could and it was they who profited from it. I spent a small amount of time trying to convince folks that the USB sticks would not have a positive ROI, but it was swimming upstream against a fast current.

[bcp19]

IMHO ASICMiner has scammed more people out of their hard-earned BTC than you guys claim Sonny has, and he did it in such a way YOU'RE ACTUALLY HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!!!

The difference is big. BFL promised a product and didnt deliver it. ASICMiner released an overpriced product but it was delivered. There is no shame in that. Most people lost out in buying mining hardware, but at least ASICMiner delivered what people paid for. BFL have not, and their incompetence over the issue means it's not even worth to receive their goods now. If they'd released an imperfect product at least people could ROI. Most will not, and international customers, like those in the UK will have to pay extra import+VAT for these shitty products. It's not worth to receive them now, period.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with you that ASICMiner were scammers. BFL are 100% for sure and I really hope someone in the US gets them investigated. I am sure they have broken many laws (it's hard to to in an overregulated USA anyhow). BFL_Josh needs to see the inside of a jail for a few years, so he can think long and hard about his actions.

To be completely HONEST, BFL *is* delivering, they are just SLOW.  Until they have completely stopped shipping and run with the money, it is just your opinion that they are truly a scam.  I haven't seen them stop shipping yet, so the jury is still out.

ASICMiner used peoples greed against themselves to make huge profits on the USB devices that would not have earned RoI at 1/4 their original price and those people used even MORE peoples greed to bone them even further.

To me, ASICMINER is the guy who worked at Best Buy when they PS3 came out and was able to walk off with 50 units at cost instead of selling them to customers, and then turned around and sold them on ebay for 10 times their value.  I personally would not have paid over $15 for one of those cause I knew how badly he was screwing people.

@PuertoLibre:  Yes, Josh has stated that you can profit with these devices even at high difficulty.  AS HE EXPLAINED, he was talking COST OF ELECTRICITY VS VALUE OF BTC MINED.  Greed led people to believe RoI.  Perosnally, I believe the smart WILL attain RoI while the stupid bail out.  Time will tell.

AS to your doubt about ASICMiners' sales: As of Jun 7th, more than 4,000 USB miners had been sold.  8,000 BTC valued at almost 1 million dollars for a whopping 1.332 TH.  He sold less than an original MINIRIG for in excess of 1 million dollars.  Yet, he didn't scam a soul.

All of those people who ordered ASICMiner actually received their devices within days of ordering them. ASICMiner only sold what they had in stock.
Greed led people to believe they would receive ROI in every ASIC purchase. A miner's greed is not BFL's fault, nor is it ASICMiners fault. However, with ASICMiner all the customers received their devices. 85% of BFL's ordered hash rate is still waiting to receive anything (I am sure by now some percentage of that has asked for refunds). Shipping slow is actually worse in this case than shipping with lower hash rate. People should have preferred 2.5GH/s back in April over 5 GH/s now.
I would have been far better disposed towards BFL if they admitted that they could only deliver 50% of what was promised, but could deliver it back in April.

@PuertoLibre: Auctioning something on Ebay when you are done with it is not immoral. Creating a marketing scheme to paint a rosy picture of a bleak scenario in order to move product at inflated prices is immoral. The reason ASICMiner was able to sell so many units at such a crazy price was because of the pent up demand for ASICs. This was due to Avalon and BFL being unable to deliver product to the marketplace. They could take orders, but they couldn't ship them in time to keep up with demand. ASICminer could and it was they who profited from it. I spent a small amount of time trying to convince folks that the USB sticks would not have a positive ROI, but it was swimming upstream against a fast current.

+1

While you and I agree on some terms, I think we can agree to disagree on others.  I stand on the point that BFL *is* shipping, albeight slowly.  Slow in this instance means that people see RoI vanish and get frustrated.

IMHO, blaming the company for the faults of the customers is wrong.  BFL did what it said it would do, admittedly not in a good timeframe, but they have continued to work on it and have not ducked out with the cash.  In one aspect BFL is like ASICMiner.  When they unveiled their product there was sufficient hype that far more orders than could reasonably be processed were made.  Unlike ASICMiner though, BFL stuck with their pricing and didn't set out to fleece the customer of every last dime.

[PuertoLibre]

@PuertoLibre: Auctioning something on Ebay when you are done with it is not immoral.

I consider doing business and leaving someone on uneven footing to be immoral. That is the moral standard set forth in my mindset. I realize there are many others out there who are not sharing that standard.

You know why people go to ebay to discharge their miners. Because they couldn't otherwise get a "too high a price" for it, if they tried to sell it among us "who know better" on BitCoinTalk.

They go to the corner of the internet where they barely have enough sense to rub two brain cells together.

Creating a marketing scheme to paint a rosy picture of a bleak scenario in order to move product at inflated prices is immoral.

"Passively" Auctioning something in the hopes that it will go for an absurd and non-useful price to the other person is immoral. (my standard may not be yours)

The reason ASICMiner was able to sell so many units at such a crazy price was because of the pent up demand for ASICs. This was due to Avalon and BFL being unable to deliver product to the marketplace. They could take orders, but they couldn't ship them in time to keep up with demand. ASICminer could and it was they who profited from it. I spent a small amount of time trying to convince folks that the USB sticks would not have a positive ROI, but it was swimming upstream against a fast current.

Whatever the reason, the sellers and distributors knew what they were doing.

They even defend their practices vehemently to this day. Shielding themselves under many pretenses that "the impossible" or a "miracle" might happen for their customers to get a useful intended purpose out of their resold miner....at too high a price.

[k9quaint]

@PuertoLibre: Auctioning something on Ebay when you are done with it is not immoral.

I consider doing business and leaving someone on uneven footing to be immoral. That is the moral standard set forth in my mindset. I realize there are many others out there who are not sharing that standard.

What about those who want rather than need? Why is selling a beanie baby on eBay immoral? It has no value other than how much a person wants to own it. A public auction is a fair method to dispose of things. I had a laser printer that was large, loud, expensive to run and wanted nothing more to do with it. However, there was nothing wrong with it functionally. It 'lasered' and scanned and networked just fine, so to speak. Someone who needed a large laser printer/scanner for their office snatched it up for what I felt was more than it was worth. It was also for a lot less than professional printers can be has new. I don't think that was an immoral transaction, I just think someone else could get more value out of it than I could.

You know why people go to ebay to discharge their miners. Because they couldn't otherwise get a "too high a price" for it, if they tried to sell it among us "who know better" on BitCoinTalk.

They go to the corner of the internet where they barely have enough sense to rub two brain cells together.

The flipping of pre-orders is low. But bitcointalk.org is not the entire market anymore. As long as the auction starts at a fair price and full disclosure is made as to the state of the product, there is nothing inherently immoral about using Ebay. That is to say, it is possible to make a moral transaction of mining equipment using ebay.

Creating a marketing scheme to paint a rosy picture of a bleak scenario in order to move product at inflated prices is immoral.

"Passively" Auctioning something in the hopes that it will go for an absurd and non-useful price to the other person is immoral. (my standard may not be yours)

Whatever the reason, the sellers and distributors knew what they were doing.

They even defend their practices vehemently to this day. Shielding themselves under many pretenses that "the impossible" or a "miracle" might happen for their customers to get a useful intended purpose out of their resold miner....at too high a price.

Most of the blades were auctioned here. So I consider that selling into an informed (if not rational) market.
There is a caveat with the USB miners. Selling one or two as a novelty item is fine. Like numismatic coins that contain a little gold, they are a terrible investment, but are shiny and pretty. I bought a gold plated buffalo coin for far more than it was worth, because my daughter wanted one. Also, the USB sticks are a reasonable way to democratize the bitcoin network. Selling them at 2BTC was ludicrous, but I could see $40 or so being reasonable.

[PuertoLibre]

@PuertoLibre: Auctioning something on Ebay when you are done with it is not immoral.

I consider doing business and leaving someone on uneven footing to be immoral. That is the moral standard set forth in my mindset. I realize there are many others out there who are not sharing that standard.

What about those who want rather than need? Why is selling a beanie baby on eBay immoral?

If they are aware of the intent that the device is being bought for isn't going to produce what they want then the sale is immoral.

A beanie baby is a beanie baby. Unless it is damaged or not as described, it is conforming.

Someone who buys a miner with a very obvious expectation (and is advertised as such) of making bitcoins should know what they are getting themselves into and why you are selling it.

If you are offloading then you know it is a lemon. If the other person buying it is expecting profit equal to or superior to the price they paid, then they do not know you are selling them a lemon.

This is the type of stuff you learn as a kid. How not to screw others because it has ongoing consequences. In other words conducting a sale on good terms and with good faith. That seems to be a foreign concept to many dealing in Bitcoin...it appears.

It has no value other than how much a person wants to own it. A public auction is a fair method to dispose of things.

Again, it's right there in your own writing.

You said "dispose". What does that tell you about what your selling?

I had a laser printer that was large, loud, expensive to run and wanted nothing more to do with it. However, there was nothing wrong with it functionally. It 'lasered' and scanned and networked just fine, so to speak. Someone who needed a large laser printer/scanner for their office snatched it up for what I felt was more than it was worth. It was also for a lot less than professional printers can be has new. I don't think that was an immoral transaction, I just think someone else could get more value out of it than I could.

Your opinion is projected unto the object.

You named annoyances and cost to operate. It otherwise operates as the buyer intends to make use of it.

From the way you are writing you sold it off at a deep discount. Keep in mind that miners are being sold at above their online retail price. People expect the miners to produce bitcoins.

In ebay ads with miners in them, there are two polarities in listing types:

1) Either absolutely nothing is said about profitability or anything specific to that end. They just post they have it and end of story.

2) They talk about it's various features and how it is a money printing machine. But usually fail to say how much it is expected to print.

You know why people go to ebay to discharge their miners. Because they couldn't otherwise get a "too high a price" for it, if they tried to sell it among us "who know better" on BitCoinTalk.

They go to the corner of the internet where they barely have enough sense to rub two brain cells together.

The flipping of pre-orders is low. But bitcointalk.org is not the entire market anymore. As long as the auction starts at a fair price and full disclosure is made as to the state of the product, there is nothing inherently immoral about using Ebay. That is to say, it is possible to make a moral transaction of mining equipment using ebay.

Full disclosure often does not happen with miners.

People often seem to sell them but they don't do what they buyer has intended. Some are so disgraceful that they even say they will delay sending it for weeks after the miner has been bought because they are "busy mining with it". LMFAO.

Creating a marketing scheme to paint a rosy picture of a bleak scenario in order to move product at inflated prices is immoral.

"Passively" Auctioning something in the hopes that it will go for an absurd and non-useful price to the other person is immoral. (my standard may not be yours)

Whatever the reason, the sellers and distributors knew what they were doing.

They even defend their practices vehemently to this day. Shielding themselves under many pretenses that "the impossible" or a "miracle" might happen for their customers to get a useful intended purpose out of their resold miner....at too high a price.

Most of the blades were auctioned here. So I consider that selling into an informed (if not rational) market.

Well, there are also people buying BFL 600Gh/s blades. So not everyone is educated. We both know that much.

There is a caveat with the USB miners. Selling one or two as a novelty item is fine. Like numismatic coins that contain a little gold, they are a terrible investment, but are shiny and pretty. I bought a gold plated buffalo coin for far more than it was worth, because my daughter wanted one. Also, the USB sticks are a reasonable way to democratize the bitcoin network. Selling them at 2BTC was ludicrous, but I could see $40 or so being reasonable.

People made a small fortune from reselling them at ludicrous prices.

Resellers who were stuck with merchandise when the price was suddenly lowered were throughly looking for "a fast moving idiot" to sell it to at a high enough price to buy the new stock at the lower price point.

[PuertoLibre]

@ k9

I am not necessarily talking about you when you sell stuff...but...this applies to many out there.

If people sell anything for the profit motive and they fuck their customers...they are taking more than just cash.

If a buyer is misinformed when they are buying a miner from you and they spend 5k and they expect that miner to produce 12k over it's useful life. If they don't know that it never will (barring a miracle) do what it is intended to do. They will face "knock on" effects in their life.

We won't ever know if they took those funds from their kids future or if they expect a quick return so they can feed their family. You aren't just taking 5k, you are taking a misinformed buyer and turning them into a train wreck.

--------------------

There are alot of people out there who sell stuff like a connman. They know they are pulling a conn even when it is perfectly legal. They say things that aren't true, they exaggerate, they distort, they keep silent when someone clearly doesn't know something, they omit information and hide it.

When people do the sale, they get a rude awakening when they later find out your product doesn't do what it was purchased for.

That has consequences in their life. Sure some are rich and they will just shrug it off and remind themselves that they shouldn't spend money they can't afford to lose. There are others who will spend money they don't have (from CC for example, many do that on this forum).

If your fortunes are built on the destruction of others and misdirection....then people really are no better than BFL. They may not think so, but they aren't any better.

----------------------

If your ultimate game is the pure profit, then you can justify anything.

People sell other people in America as part of the sex trade. (Yes, even in America) They justify it because it is profitable.
People ship Chinese immigrants in containers because each Chinese citizen pays 2k to get here illegally. They share an oceanic container for the next 30 days with 400+ other people crammed into one container. Justified because it was profitable. (most do not make it to shore alive, many die, they have to put up with the corpse next to them on the long voyage.)

Everything has a starting seed. People without that seed do things differently from other people. Even Connmen were once innocent. At some point they saw things in "a new perspective" and slowly grew to be who they are until they got caught.

Even though I don't always live "the motto" perfectly, people reading this text should always treat others as if "they are you". If you wouldn't screw yourself for profit, then you shouldn't do it to the buyer.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Sorry to interrupt the current conversation, but breaking news: BFL is now honoring all refunds for all those who ask via bitcoins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279173.0

[k9quaint]

It has no value other than how much a person wants to own it. A public auction is a fair method to dispose of things.

Again, it's right there in your own writing.

You said "dispose". What does that tell you about what your selling?

It tells me that someone else will have more use for it than I. You are assigning meaning to 'dispose' that is not there.
The definition I meant was:
a : to transfer to the control of another <disposing of personal property to a total stranger>
Picaso paintings are auctioned, but nobody would consider them to be thrown away.  

I had a laser printer that was large, loud, expensive to run and wanted nothing more to do with it. However, there was nothing wrong with it functionally. It 'lasered' and scanned and networked just fine, so to speak. Someone who needed a large laser printer/scanner for their office snatched it up for what I felt was more than it was worth. It was also for a lot less than professional printers can be has new. I don't think that was an immoral transaction, I just think someone else could get more value out of it than I could.

Your opinion is projected unto the object.

You named annoyances and cost to operate. It otherwise operates as the buyer intends to make use of it.

From the way you are writing you sold it off at a deep discount. Keep in mind that miners are being sold at above their online retail price. People expect the miners to produce bitcoins.

In ebay ads with miners in them, there are two polarities in listing types:

1) Either absolutely nothing is said about profitability or anything specific to that end. They just post they have it and end of story.

2) They talk about it's various features and how it is a money printing machine. But usually fail to say how much it is expected to print.

I was saying it is possible to construct a fair auction of mining equipment on ebay, not that all auctions on ebay are fair.
Perfectly describing an object in hand as to it's capabilities and attributes ought to be enough. Misleading statements and marketing is more selling and less auctioning. Also, the ASIC mining market is batshit insane right now. I consider the GPU secondary market on ebay to be in much better shape as far as morals go.

[bcp19]

@ k9

I am not necessarily talking about you when you sell stuff...but...this applies to many out there.

If people sell anything for the profit motive and they fuck their customers...they are taking more than just cash.

If a buyer is misinformed when they are buying a miner from you and they spend 5k and they expect that miner to produce 12k over it's useful life. If they don't know that it never will (barring a miracle) do what it is intended to do. They will face "knock on" effects in their life.

We won't ever know if they took those funds from their kids future or if they expect a quick return so they can feed their family. You aren't just taking 5k, you are taking a misinformed buyer and turning them into a train wreck.

--------------------

There are alot of people out there who sell stuff like a connman. They know they are pulling a conn even when it is perfectly legal. They say things that aren't true, they exaggerate, they distort, they keep silent when someone clearly doesn't know something, they omit information and hide it.

When people do the sale, they get a rude awakening when they later find out your product doesn't do what it was purchased for.

That has consequences in their life. Sure some are rich and they will just shrug it off and remind themselves that they shouldn't spend money they can't afford to lose. There are others who will spend money they don't have (from CC for example, many do that on this forum).

If your fortunes are built on the destruction of others and misdirection....then people really are no better than BFL. They may not think so, but they aren't any better.

----------------------

If your ultimate game is the pure profit, then you can justify anything.

People sell other people in America as part of the sex trade. (Yes, even in America) They justify it because it is profitable.
People ship Chinese immigrants in containers because each Chinese citizen pays 2k to get here illegally. They share an oceanic container for the next 30 days with 400+ other people crammed into one container. Justified because it was profitable. (most do not make it to shore alive, many die, they have to put up with the corpse next to them on the long voyage.)

Everything has a starting seed. People without that seed do things differently from other people. Even Connmen were once innocent. At some point they saw things in "a new perspective" and slowly grew to be who they are until they got caught.

Even though I don't always live "the motto" perfectly, people reading this text should always treat others as if "they are you". If you wouldn't screw yourself for profit, then you shouldn't do it to the buyer.

+1

90% of people advertising sales of their pre-orders (one guy was even selling a Jun 5th preorder on Jun 10th AND after reviewing his past sales, had a shill bidder to bump prices over $400) were extolling how AT CURRENT DIFFICULTY you'd be making $XX per day!  Never mind the fact that they barely started shipping anything and the order number I am offering you has 60,000 orders ahead of it.

I actually complained about him to ebay and all of his auctions got cancelled and he's no longer registered.  Did I done good?

[amencon]

IMHO, blaming the company for the faults of the customers is wrong.  BFL did what it said it would do, admittedly not in a good timeframe, but they have continued to work on it and have not ducked out with the cash.  In one aspect BFL is like ASICMiner.  When they unveiled their product there was sufficient hype that far more orders than could reasonably be processed were made.  Unlike ASICMiner though, BFL stuck with their pricing and didn't set out to fleece the customer of every last dime.

The time component was as critical as everything else.  BFL did not do "what it said it would do".  Had BFL delivered on time and to spec they would have done what they said they would do regardless of ROI of their machines.  They don't exist in a bubble and their delays cost their customers stress, time and money.  They fucked their customers by claiming a ship date and hashrate efficiency they didn't deliver on, whether you like BFL or not those are the facts.  Maybe some of those customers were idiots and thought they would ROI when they wouldn't have under any circumstances, however that has nothing to do with the complaints against BFL.  Nobody is blaming the company for faults of the customer, they are blaming the company for faults of the company. 

I'm not trying to debate or argue against your opinion of the company.  If you take what happened and still think BFL is stand up business then more power to you, but to claim the complaints are really the customers' faults and BFL did what it said they would do is just patently false.  I'm not even attributing any malice or deception to BFL's actions here, whether or not BFL intentionally fucked their customers is immaterial to my point.

As for ASICMiner, personally I'd MUCH rather have a company price their products very high than make erroneous statements about what and when you'll get from them.  Not that I'm trying to say great things about ASICMiner, just that BFL set the bar really low for comparisons.

[bcp19]

IMHO, blaming the company for the faults of the customers is wrong.  BFL did what it said it would do, admittedly not in a good timeframe, but they have continued to work on it and have not ducked out with the cash.  In one aspect BFL is like ASICMiner.  When they unveiled their product there was sufficient hype that far more orders than could reasonably be processed were made.  Unlike ASICMiner though, BFL stuck with their pricing and didn't set out to fleece the customer of every last dime.

The time component was as critical as everything else.  BFL did not do "what it said it would do".  Had BFL delivered on time and to spec they would have done what they said they would do regardless of ROI of their machines.  They don't exist in a bubble and their delays cost their customers stress, time and money.  They fucked their customers by claiming a ship date and hashrate efficiency they didn't deliver on, whether you like BFL or not those are the facts.  Maybe some of those customers were idiots and thought they would ROI when they wouldn't have under any circumstances, however that has nothing to do with the complaints against BFL.  Nobody is blaming the company for faults of the customer, they are blaming the company for faults of the company.  

I'm not trying to debate or argue against your opinion of the company.  If you take what happened and still think BFL is stand up business then more power to you, but to claim the complaints are really the customers' faults and BFL did what it said they would do is just patently false.  I'm not even attributing any malice or deception to BFL's actions here, whether or not BFL intentionally fucked their customers is immaterial to my point.

As for ASICMiner, personally I'd MUCH rather have a company price their products very high than make erroneous statements about what and when you'll get from them.  Not that I'm trying to say great things about ASICMiner, just that BFL set the bar really low for comparisons.

So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL(WHICH HE DID!!!!!)... Gotcha.  Bend over, here it comes...

The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds.  The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons.  I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC.  If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total.  The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do.  Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:

If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day.  By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.

If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day.  .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.

The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE.  No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.

It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.

[k9quaint]

So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL... Gotcha.  Bend over, here it comes...

BFL is not able to build and ship 1.5TH units ordered right now for $30,000.
If they were able to, people would buy them.
All BFL can do right now is sell promises that at some point in the future they might build one eventually and give it to you at some point.

If someone wants an ASIC right now, ASICMiner is the *only* place they can buy one in stock and get it in a few days.
Even with a monopoly on the market, ASICMiner has cut their prices several times. Still, they have profited handsomely from being the only place one can buy an ASIC mining device that is actually in stock.

Every other ASIC vendor involves ordering and waiting for weeks or months.

[bcp19]

So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL... Gotcha.  Bend over, here it comes...

BFL is not able to build and ship 1.5TH units ordered right now for $30,000.
If they were able to, people would buy them.
All BFL can do right now is sell promises that at some point in the future they might build one eventually and give it to you at some point.

If someone wants an ASIC right now, ASICMiner is the *only* place they can buy one in stock and get it in a few days.
Even with a monopoly on the market, ASICMiner has cut their prices several times. Still, they have profited handsomely from being the only place one can buy an ASIC mining device that is actually in stock.

Every other ASIC vendor involves ordering and waiting for weeks or months.

profited hansomely... c'mon, be honest.  royally fucked their customers.

[amencon]

IMHO, blaming the company for the faults of the customers is wrong.  BFL did what it said it would do, admittedly not in a good timeframe, but they have continued to work on it and have not ducked out with the cash.  In one aspect BFL is like ASICMiner.  When they unveiled their product there was sufficient hype that far more orders than could reasonably be processed were made.  Unlike ASICMiner though, BFL stuck with their pricing and didn't set out to fleece the customer of every last dime.

The time component was as critical as everything else.  BFL did not do "what it said it would do".  Had BFL delivered on time and to spec they would have done what they said they would do regardless of ROI of their machines.  They don't exist in a bubble and their delays cost their customers stress, time and money.  They fucked their customers by claiming a ship date and hashrate efficiency they didn't deliver on, whether you like BFL or not those are the facts.  Maybe some of those customers were idiots and thought they would ROI when they wouldn't have under any circumstances, however that has nothing to do with the complaints against BFL.  Nobody is blaming the company for faults of the customer, they are blaming the company for faults of the company.  

I'm not trying to debate or argue against your opinion of the company.  If you take what happened and still think BFL is stand up business then more power to you, but to claim the complaints are really the customers' faults and BFL did what it said they would do is just patently false.  I'm not even attributing any malice or deception to BFL's actions here, whether or not BFL intentionally fucked their customers is immaterial to my point.

As for ASICMiner, personally I'd MUCH rather have a company price their products very high than make erroneous statements about what and when you'll get from them.  Not that I'm trying to say great things about ASICMiner, just that BFL set the bar really low for comparisons.

So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL(WHICH HE DID!!!!!)... Gotcha.  Bend over, here it comes...

I never said I'd pay.  I'd rather a company offer a bad deal that will be executed as offered than something that seems better and then not deliver.

The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds.  The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons.  I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC.  If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total.  The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do.  Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:

If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day.  By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.

If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day.  .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.

The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE.  No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.

It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.

All the complaints I've seen on these forums have to do with BFL not delivering on their promises and very little to do with the actual ROI their machine make, they promised a set hashrate at a set efficiency at a set time, not ROI.  Had BFL delivered exactly what they stated they would in the beginning, I think we'd be calling the customers dummies for buying a machine that wouldn't make back what they spent on it and lauding BFL as a stellar example of bitcoin businesses for following through on time and in specs for a new technology. 

BFL customers will make less money with their machines now than if BFL delivered last year like planned regardless of who would ROI or not.  BFL delaying has cost their customers money and the only way to not believe that is to believe that every added hash to the network since their originally stated launch date was added by BFL.  If that is the case then you are too far gone and we have nothing to discuss obviously.

[k9quaint]

So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL... Gotcha.  Bend over, here it comes...

BFL is not able to build and ship 1.5TH units ordered right now for $30,000.
If they were able to, people would buy them.
All BFL can do right now is sell promises that at some point in the future they might build one eventually and give it to you at some point.

If someone wants an ASIC right now, ASICMiner is the *only* place they can buy one in stock and get it in a few days.
Even with a monopoly on the market, ASICMiner has cut their prices several times. Still, they have profited handsomely from being the only place one can buy an ASIC mining device that is actually in stock.

Every other ASIC vendor involves ordering and waiting for weeks or months.

profited hansomely... c'mon, be honest.  royally fucked their customers.

ASICMiner offered (IMO) overpriced gear. People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
Many people (myself included) tried to warn people that there was no ROI to be had, but we were shouted down by the buyers, not the sellers.
ASICMiner then offered slightly less overpriced gear.  People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
They are doing it a third time. People are still buying. You can't blame the shovel makers for making shovels and selling to the millions who come to the gold rush and are desperate to buy a shovel. You have to educate the people and teach them why they should not covet shovels and goldpans.

As soon as another company can provide competition, the prices will adjust to more reasonable levels.
Plus, you seem to be very angry at the only ASIC company that actually delivers what they promise when they say they will. Why is that I wonder.