YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[bcp19]

The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds.  The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons.  I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC.  If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total.  The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do.  Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:

If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day.  By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.

If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day.  .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.

The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE.  No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.

It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.

All the complaints I've seen on these forums have to do with BFL not delivering on their promises and very little to do with the actual ROI their machine make, they promised a set hashrate at a set efficiency at a set time, not ROI.  Had BFL delivered exactly what they stated they would in the beginning, I think we'd be calling the customers dummies for buying a machine that wouldn't make back what they spent on it and lauding BFL as a stellar example of bitcoin businesses for following through on time and in specs for a new technology. 

BFL customers will make less money with their machines now than if BFL delivered last year like planned regardless of who would ROI or not.  BFL delaying has cost their customers money and the only way to not believe that is to believe that every added hash to the network since their originally stated launch date was added by BFL.  If that is the case then you are too far gone and we have nothing to discuss obviously.

Wait... *If* BFL shipped on time the customers are dummies for purchasing machines that would not make back what they spent, but since BFL couldn't ship on time they are no longer dummies for purchasing machines that would not make back what they spent??  Your logic escapes me.

I will agree with you on 1 point, if BFL had shipped on time, their customers would be making more BTC per day back than they will in the present when they receive them.

I disgree that overall they would have MORE BTC at this point in time if BFL had shipped on time than they do have right now from having mined with alternative sources up until this point.  We haven't seen the full effect of the orders placed with BFL yet, so you have no idea how little they actually would have made, while I have a pretty clear idea from my time/motion studies on the matter.

[bcp19]

So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL... Gotcha.  Bend over, here it comes...

BFL is not able to build and ship 1.5TH units ordered right now for $30,000.
If they were able to, people would buy them.
All BFL can do right now is sell promises that at some point in the future they might build one eventually and give it to you at some point.

If someone wants an ASIC right now, ASICMiner is the *only* place they can buy one in stock and get it in a few days.
Even with a monopoly on the market, ASICMiner has cut their prices several times. Still, they have profited handsomely from being the only place one can buy an ASIC mining device that is actually in stock.

Every other ASIC vendor involves ordering and waiting for weeks or months.

profited hansomely... c'mon, be honest.  royally fucked their customers.

ASICMiner offered (IMO) overpriced gear. People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
Many people (myself included) tried to warn people that there was no ROI to be had, but we were shouted down by the buyers, not the sellers.
ASICMiner then offered slightly less overpriced gear.  People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
They are doing it a third time. People are still buying. You can't blame the shovel makers for making shovels and selling to the millions who come to the gold rush and are desperate to buy a shovel. You have to educate the people and teach them why they should not covet shovels and goldpans.

As soon as another company can provide competition, the prices will adjust to more reasonable levels.
Plus, you seem to be very angry at the only ASIC company that actually delivers what they promise when they say they will. Why is that I wonder.

I made plenty off of ASICMiner though the shares I bought on Havelock.  I actually starting purchasing... I guess you could call them micro shares (1/100)... for 2.4BTC per full share.  I sold my shares at 4.8 and moved to alt-coin trading.  I came back and bought micro shares at 3.4 and ended up selling Sunday/Monday when I felt spooked between 3.5 and 3.6.  Can't say why, but I could not shake that feeling so I sold everything into BTC.  I'm happy now, since BTC rose and I would have lost nearly 20% if I held.

You are mistaking my feelings towards dispicable acts as feeling for a company that succeeded.  When ASICMiner sold the blades for 50BTC, while expensive, there was a very reasonable expectation that the price could be recouped.  I commented months ago that the person who sold their mini-rig preorder for 77K was the smart one in the bunch.  Compared to the 50BTC for 13GH, 77K was a minor expense for 1.5TH.

BFL started shipping.  In hand Jalapenos were placed up for auction and frantic bidders pushed prices to insane levels.  I saw from $800 to $2,000.  A lot of these auctions were started at $100 and it was up to the bidders to dictate the final price.

Enter the USBs.  Almost the cost of a Jalapeno for 1/15th the hash rate.  'shareholders' only, and they turned around and listed STARTING bids at double what they paid for them.  Call it what you want, but that my friend is the perfect example of insider trading.  ASICMiner went from benevolent company paying dividends to investors to a good old boys club out to fuck the rest of the world.  If ASICMiner had simply put them up for sale to EVERYONE at a fixed cost and the people lucky enough to get one reselling them like brand new PS3's on ebay would not have caused me grief.  Luck of the draw I can respect.  Insider trading to profit your shareholders is criminal.

period.

[amencon]

The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds.  The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons.  I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC.  If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total.  The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do.  Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:

If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day.  By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.

If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day.  .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.

The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE.  No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.

It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.

All the complaints I've seen on these forums have to do with BFL not delivering on their promises and very little to do with the actual ROI their machine make, they promised a set hashrate at a set efficiency at a set time, not ROI.  Had BFL delivered exactly what they stated they would in the beginning, I think we'd be calling the customers dummies for buying a machine that wouldn't make back what they spent on it and lauding BFL as a stellar example of bitcoin businesses for following through on time and in specs for a new technology. 

BFL customers will make less money with their machines now than if BFL delivered last year like planned regardless of who would ROI or not.  BFL delaying has cost their customers money and the only way to not believe that is to believe that every added hash to the network since their originally stated launch date was added by BFL.  If that is the case then you are too far gone and we have nothing to discuss obviously.

Wait... *If* BFL shipped on time the customers are dummies for purchasing machines that would not make back what they spent, but since BFL couldn't ship on time they are no longer dummies for purchasing machines that would not make back what they spent??  Your logic escapes me.

Huh?  It's dumb to buy a machine that makes money and is known to make less of it than you spent on it.  Had BFL given customers accurate information to make an informed decision on, and had there been customers that still chose to buy machines that didn't ROI then the only complaints in the BFL world would be that some of their customers are dummies.  You wouldn't have threads about how awful BFL is because any customer loss would have been due to poor decision making on the customer's part (this is just speculation and not tangential to my point in my original response to you).  That's not what happened, and that's why there are copious threads full of ire towards BFL.  Whether or not customers are dumb or not has nothing to do with whether or not BFL delivered on their promises, you seem to be confusing two separate topics.  BFL can have dumb customers AND still be screwing them.  Impressive misinterpretation of what I said, but really my only point was that your statement that BFL "did what they said they would do" was false.

I will agree with you on 1 point, if BFL had shipped on time, their customers would be making more BTC per day back than they will in the present when they receive them.

I disgree that overall they would have MORE BTC at this point in time if BFL had shipped on time than they do have right now from having mined with alternative sources up until this point.  We haven't seen the full effect of the orders placed with BFL yet, so you have no idea how little they actually would have made, while I have a pretty clear idea from my time/motion studies on the matter.

I never made any claims about how wise an investment in BFL gear would have been either way.  Whether BFL machines ROI'd last year or this year is beside the point.  Due to BFL's actions, their customers lost money (beyond what they may have already lost by ordering with BFL in the first place rather than investing with competitors or just buying BTC), whether that means they will lose more on their investment vs losing less last year or determining successful ROI or not is beyond the scope of my previous comments about your assertion.  BFL having dumb customers doesn't somehow negate the fact that BFL didn't deliver on promises and cost their customers money.  I'm stating a simple fact, BFL didn't do what they said they would do and it cost their customers money.  We know this happened and people don't like it evidenced by all the BFL hate, there isn't much for you to refute here though I don't doubt you'll try.

[bcp19]

The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds.  The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons.  I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC.  If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total.  The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do.  Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:

If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day.  By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.

If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day.  .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.

The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE.  No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.

It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.

All the complaints I've seen on these forums have to do with BFL not delivering on their promises and very little to do with the actual ROI their machine make, they promised a set hashrate at a set efficiency at a set time, not ROI.  Had BFL delivered exactly what they stated they would in the beginning, I think we'd be calling the customers dummies for buying a machine that wouldn't make back what they spent on it and lauding BFL as a stellar example of bitcoin businesses for following through on time and in specs for a new technology. 

BFL customers will make less money with their machines now than if BFL delivered last year like planned regardless of who would ROI or not.  BFL delaying has cost their customers money and the only way to not believe that is to believe that every added hash to the network since their originally stated launch date was added by BFL.  If that is the case then you are too far gone and we have nothing to discuss obviously.

Wait... *If* BFL shipped on time the customers are dummies for purchasing machines that would not make back what they spent, but since BFL couldn't ship on time they are no longer dummies for purchasing machines that would not make back what they spent??  Your logic escapes me.

Huh?  It's dumb to buy a machine that makes money and is known to make less of it than you spent on it.  Had BFL given customers accurate information to make an informed decision on, and had there been customers that still chose to buy machines that didn't ROI then the only complaints in the BFL world would be that some of their customers are dummies.  You wouldn't have threads about how awful BFL is because any customer loss would have been due to poor decision making on the customer's part (this is just speculation and not tangential to my point in my original response to you).  That's not what happened, and that's why there are copious threads full of ire towards BFL.  Whether or not customers are dumb or not has nothing to do with whether or not BFL delivered on their promises, you seem to be confusing two separate topics.  BFL can have dumb customers AND still be screwing them.  Impressive misinterpretation of what I said, but really my only point was that your statement that BFL "did what they said they would do" was false.

I will agree with you on 1 point, if BFL had shipped on time, their customers would be making more BTC per day back than they will in the present when they receive them.

I disgree that overall they would have MORE BTC at this point in time if BFL had shipped on time than they do have right now from having mined with alternative sources up until this point.  We haven't seen the full effect of the orders placed with BFL yet, so you have no idea how little they actually would have made, while I have a pretty clear idea from my time/motion studies on the matter.

I never made any claims about how wise an investment in BFL gear would have been either way.  Whether BFL machines ROI'd last year or this year is beside the point.  Due to BFL's actions, their customers lost money (beyond what they may have already lost by ordering with BFL in the first place rather than investing with competitors or just buying BTC), whether that means they will lose more on their investment vs losing less last year or determining successful ROI or not is beyond the scope of my previous comments about your assertion.  BFL having dumb customers doesn't somehow negate the fact that BFL didn't deliver on promises and cost their customers money.  I'm stating a simple fact, BFL didn't do what they said they would do and it cost their customers money.  We know this happened and people don't like it evidenced by all the BFL hate, there isn't much for you to refute here though I don't doubt you'll try.

Most of the hate posts I read refer to 'potential profits lost'.  That term alone tells me people think that they would have more money rolling in if BFL had shipped on time.  I could post 3 pages of calculations showing this to be untrue, but you cannot change the minds of people unwilling to listen.

Now, you say these customers lost money.  What money did they lose?  Their investment?  It technically doubled (or more on Mini's) if you take into account the price increase and the fact they will get it eventually.  Mining profits?  Maybe for the day 1 orderers, otherwise doubtful unless they did little to no mining after ordering.  The subsequent rise in the price of BTC?  Speculation.  In hindsight everyone will tell you THEY would have held every last BTC and sold at $250 and thus they got screwed royally by not having it.  The reality is many would have found something else to spend their BTC on.  Whether that would have been a competitor's equipment or something else is also truly unknown.  Maybe having spent it on BFL equipment kept some people from losing it all trying to score big on alt-coins or spending it all on a party and the only thing they'd have to show for it is a massive hangover.

So, I can agree that BFL did not live up to expectations, that *is* a fact.  But to be completely honest, I cannot say with any certainty that this did or did not cost the customers money.  There is certainly a perception by many that money was lost, but unfortunately, we can never prove if that would have been the reality. 

[btcdrak]

Something very interesting regarding BFL's shipping practice from the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.

2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.

3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.

Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/

[Noogsy]

Something very interesting regarding BFL's shipping practice from the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.

2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.

3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.

Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/

Yeah, found that too. Interesting indeed. Filed an FTC Complaint now.

@Sockpuppets : don't try to mess this thread so noone finds any answers/help!
(oh you are no sockpuppets ? Then Sooorry, but get lost and fight somewhere else! )

[btcdrak]

Yeah, found that too. Interesting indeed. Filed an FTC Complaint now.

So now everyone else, also have courage and file an FTC complain straight away. Let's give Josh a taste of his own medicine.

[ryanb]

i filed a claim with the FTC last week as well.

[BTCscraper]

I've already filed with the BBB and the AG of KS.  I'm thinking of modifying my filing with the FTC, as my initial filing was before I asked for a refund.  Now that I have a response denying a refund, and a response confirming that they are denying it (in spite of my bringing up the FTC mail order rule), I should be updating the FTC with the details (or maybe filing anew and having the previous file superseded).  Also, a reminder to all that Leawood and Overland Park are both in Johnson County, so it may also be good to do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms .

Note: when I filed with the FTC last August 5, it was to register the complaint that the seller has not provided me a definite shipping date for my order, and has announced that they do not accept refund requests.

[PuertoLibre]

@ k9

Could you add this to your PSA?

Do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

[Lohoris]

Thank you Pay"PAL" !  

"Outside the 45 days we can't do nothing, even if they are Criminals" - a quote from a paypal agent I just had on the phone !
Seems like the american paypal customer service is a bit more aware, if they helped you.
Is fraud@ or customerservice@ paypal.com any good to adress this whole thing to? German customer "service" seems to know sh**!

Cheers and good luck@all

There's an organisation that should help you dealing with criminals.
It's called "police".
I'm still utterly and completely baffled by how much people refuse to take action and just give up their money.

[Lohoris]

ASICMiner offered (IMO) overpriced gear. People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
Many people (myself included) tried to warn people that there was no ROI to be had, but we were shouted down by the buyers, not the sellers.
ASICMiner then offered slightly less overpriced gear.  People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
They are doing it a third time. People are still buying. You can't blame the shovel makers for making shovels and selling to the millions who come to the gold rush and are desperate to buy a shovel. You have to educate the people and teach them why they should not covet shovels and goldpans.

As soon as another company can provide competition, the prices will adjust to more reasonable levels.
Plus, you seem to be very angry at the only ASIC company that actually delivers what they promise when they say they will. Why is that I wonder.

THIS

[bcp19]

ASICMiner offered (IMO) overpriced gear. People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
Many people (myself included) tried to warn people that there was no ROI to be had, but we were shouted down by the buyers, not the sellers.
ASICMiner then offered slightly less overpriced gear.  People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
They are doing it a third time. People are still buying. You can't blame the shovel makers for making shovels and selling to the millions who come to the gold rush and are desperate to buy a shovel. You have to educate the people and teach them why they should not covet shovels and goldpans.

As soon as another company can provide competition, the prices will adjust to more reasonable levels.
Plus, you seem to be very angry at the only ASIC company that actually delivers what they promise when they say they will. Why is that I wonder.

THIS

It still amounted to insider trading.

[k9quaint]

@ k9

Could you add this to your PSA?

Do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

Done.

If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0

[-Redacted-]

So, I just emailed BFL and requested a refund for two singles I ordered.   Let's see what the response is to that...

[Trongersoll]

So, I just emailed BFL and requested a refund for two singles I ordered.   Let's see what the response is to that...

i did that a couple of weeks ago, i got the standard "No" form letter. I really want my equipment more than the money though so i let it ride for now.

[Syke]

So, I just emailed BFL and requested a refund for two singles I ordered.   Let's see what the response is to that...

i did that a couple of weeks ago, i got the standard "No" form letter. I really want my equipment more than the money though so i let it ride for now.

It's looking like the next difficulty is going up 25% tomorrow. You sure you want to let it ride?

[Flying Hellfish]

So, I just emailed BFL and requested a refund for two singles I ordered.   Let's see what the response is to that...

i did that a couple of weeks ago, i got the standard "No" form letter. I really want my equipment more than the money though so i let it ride for now.

It's looking like the next difficulty is going up 25% tomorrow. You sure you want to let it ride?

Meh, what's 25% of 50 mill between friends!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

So, I just emailed BFL and requested a refund for two singles I ordered.   Let's see what the response is to that...

i did that a couple of weeks ago, i got the standard "No" form letter. I really want my equipment more than the money though so i let it ride for now.

It's looking like the next difficulty is going up 25% tomorrow. You sure you want to let it ride?

Or double down on the Monarch!

[Noitev]

So, I just emailed BFL and requested a refund for two singles I ordered.   Let's see what the response is to that...

i did that a couple of weeks ago, i got the standard "No" form letter. I really want my equipment more than the money though so i let it ride for now.

It's looking like the next difficulty is going up 25% tomorrow. You sure you want to let it ride?

Or double down on the Monarch!

I'll wait for when they announce a product to undercut it before it ships...