YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[amencon]

Most of the hate posts I read refer to 'potential profits lost'.  That term alone tells me people think that they would have more money rolling in if BFL had shipped on time.  I could post 3 pages of calculations showing this to be untrue, but you cannot change the minds of people unwilling to listen.

Now, you say these customers lost money.  What money did they lose?  Their investment?  It technically doubled (or more on Mini's) if you take into account the price increase and the fact they will get it eventually.  Mining profits?  Maybe for the day 1 orderers, otherwise doubtful unless they did little to no mining after ordering.  The subsequent rise in the price of BTC?  Speculation.  In hindsight everyone will tell you THEY would have held every last BTC and sold at $250 and thus they got screwed royally by not having it.  The reality is many would have found something else to spend their BTC on.  Whether that would have been a competitor's equipment or something else is also truly unknown.  Maybe having spent it on BFL equipment kept some people from losing it all trying to score big on alt-coins or spending it all on a party and the only thing they'd have to show for it is a massive hangover.

So, I can agree that BFL did not live up to expectations, that *is* a fact.  But to be completely honest, I cannot say with any certainty that this did or did not cost the customers money.  There is certainly a perception by many that money was lost, but unfortunately, we can never prove if that would have been the reality. 

Ok I'll try to simplify it a bit, sorry if the term "lost money" was a bit ambiguous.  Had BFL shipped when they originally stated they would, every single customer would have mined more BTC with the equipment they ordered from BFL than they will now after the extended delays.  People bought machines that mined BTC, in essence purchasing BTC.  Now they will recieve fewer BTC for their purchase due to BFL not doing what they said they would.

Assuming same queue positions and other similar variables remained constant.

Simple enough?

[Viceroy]

Yes that is simple.  Did BFL ever promise in it's advertising any particular bitcoin pay back for buying the hardware? 

I just wonder because that would expose them to a serious liability lawsuit.

[millsdmb]

the difficulty is 65.8M

do you know where your ASICS are?

[01BTC10]

Yes that is simple.  Did BFL ever promise in it's advertising any particular bitcoin pay back for buying the hardware?  

I just wonder because that would expose them to a serious liability lawsuit.

There was an official post with estimated revenue but couldn't find it. (probably deleted)

EDIT: There it is: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Get+Rich+Quick+Not+so+fast

No promise but misleading for noobs imo.

[Viceroy]

Yes that is simple.  Did BFL ever promise in it's advertising any particular bitcoin pay back for buying the hardware?  

I just wonder because that would expose them to a serious liability lawsuit.

There was an official post with estimated revenue but couldn't find it. (probably deleted)

EDIT: There it is: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Get+Rich+Quick+Not+so+fast

OMG isn't that an offer to deliver a certain hashrate at a certain price and since they didn't deliver is this not an incredible liability?

Testing in the legal forum...

edit:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280514.0

[Fiyasko]

Stickie this thread

[Bicknellski]

Nice tub o' popcorn. Shhh I am trying to watch BFL implode.

[bcp19]

Yes that is simple.  Did BFL ever promise in it's advertising any particular bitcoin pay back for buying the hardware?  

I just wonder because that would expose them to a serious liability lawsuit.

There was an official post with estimated revenue but couldn't find it. (probably deleted)

EDIT: There it is: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Get+Rich+Quick+Not+so+fast

OMG isn't that an offer to deliver a certain hashrate at a certain price and since they didn't deliver is this not an incredible liability?

Testing in the legal forum...

edit:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280514.0

Not sure what you are reading, but I see a post that basically says "So, you think you'll get rich? Think again and here's why"

They carefully explain what happens as the difficulty increases and what to expect at each level.

I see no delivery dates and no promises.  When was the last time you had your eyes checked?  (It would be impolite to imply you need your head checked after all).

[Viceroy]

Are you a lawyer bcp19?

edit:

Is BFL liable for this statement?
Today at 02:50:21 PM

Is BFL liable for this statement?
Yes   - 9 (100%)
No   - 0 (0%)
huh?   - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 9

[bcp19]

Are you a lawyer bcp19?

Hmmm.... 20 years Navy... so best I can be is a Sea lawyer... why?

[Viceroy]

I'd say derr777's is the most interesting response in the thread so far:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280514.msg2999257#msg2999257

Just fyi: if they are running a psuedo-long con, which could probably be argued at this point, he could be found to have been in violation of his probabtion, even if they declare bankruptcy after september 15.  The court would look at the time the crime was done (if it is proven to be such,) so don't worry about these artificial dates.

I'm not saying they are doing anything illegal, but it does look more likely now... even so, the above would mean he could still be found in violation of his parole/probation.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Yes that is simple.  Did BFL ever promise in it's advertising any particular bitcoin pay back for buying the hardware?  

I just wonder because that would expose them to a serious liability lawsuit.

There was an official post with estimated revenue but couldn't find it. (probably deleted)

EDIT: There it is: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Get+Rich+Quick+Not+so+fast

No promise but misleading for noobs imo.

Income per month for the BFL ASICs (using the above) with no overclocking and ZERO power costs in USD is would therefore be around the following:
Jalapeno - $1,255/mth
"Little" Single - $8,373/mth
Single - $16,746/mth
Minirig - $418,651/mth

Bear in mind these are laboratory examples (i.e. in a perfect and controlled world) and your returns may not necessarily be this high. Actually, it's almost guaranteed you will never see these sorts of figures as there will be a whole heap of ASIC's hit the market which will dramatically affect hash-rate and difficulty. These values will definitely fluctuate daily as the market value of BTC fluctuates and hash-rates/difficulty changes. If you want to run your own calculations check out many of the BTC calculators online ranging from simple to complex. Here's an example to start you off: http://bitcoinx.com/profit/

There's a reason MLMs are not allowed to show the $ amounts when they present their matrixes.

[bcp19]

Yes that is simple.  Did BFL ever promise in it's advertising any particular bitcoin pay back for buying the hardware?  

I just wonder because that would expose them to a serious liability lawsuit.

There was an official post with estimated revenue but couldn't find it. (probably deleted)

EDIT: There it is: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Get+Rich+Quick+Not+so+fast

No promise but misleading for noobs imo.

Income per month for the BFL ASICs (using the above) with no overclocking and ZERO power costs in USD is would therefore be around the following:
Jalapeno - $1,255/mth
"Little" Single - $8,373/mth
Single - $16,746/mth
Minirig - $418,651/mth

Bear in mind these are laboratory examples (i.e. in a perfect and controlled world) and your returns may not necessarily be this high. Actually, it's almost guaranteed you will never see these sorts of figures as there will be a whole heap of ASIC's hit the market which will dramatically affect hash-rate and difficulty. These values will definitely fluctuate daily as the market value of BTC fluctuates and hash-rates/difficulty changes. If you want to run your own calculations check out many of the BTC calculators online ranging from simple to complex. Here's an example to start you off: http://bitcoinx.com/profit/

There's a reason MLMs are not allowed to show the $ amounts when they present their matrixes.

[Viceroy]

Yea, I don't think that bolded part get's him out of it.  What if the reader were to stop reading before that line?  They might be confused into thinking josh said his hardware will earn the buyer X amount of money.

Why would any person NOT demand a refund before these fools go bankrupt?

* Viceroy facepalms

[bcp19]

Yea, I don't think that bolded part get's him out of it.  What if the reader were to stop reading before that line?  They might be confused into thinking josh said his hardware will earn the buyer X amount of money.

Why would any person NOT demand a refund before these fools go bankrupt?

* Viceroy facepalms

Judge: Did you read the contract before you signed it?
Plaintiff: Well, I read part of it
Judge: So you did not read this part here...
Plaintiff: No
Judge: Case Dismissed... NEXT!

[opello]

Judge: Did you read the contract before you signed it?
Plaintiff: Well, I read part of it
Judge: So you did not read this part here...
Plaintiff: No
Judge: Case Dismissed... NEXT!

IANAL, but without a concrete delivery date, I don't think the "sale terms" actually form the offer component of a contract, if it were to be tested.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

But, Judge, Josh Zerlan called Satoshi Nakamoto a Monumental Asshole.

Case reopened!

[k9quaint]

Yea, I don't think that bolded part get's him out of it.  What if the reader were to stop reading before that line?  They might be confused into thinking josh said his hardware will earn the buyer X amount of money.

Why would any person NOT demand a refund before these fools go bankrupt?

* Viceroy facepalms

Judge: Did you read the contract before you signed it?
Plaintiff: Well, I read part of it
Judge: So you did not read this part here...
Plaintiff: No
Judge: Case Dismissed... NEXT!

Those terms do not compose part of the sales contract, they are testimonials published about the products and thus are marketing.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/marketing-fraud.html
Originally, there was no sales contract at all (even now there are just a few lines). Just an exchange of money for an order number. Thus, the terms of the UCC are what will be enforced.

[LostDutchman]

A contract which includes terms which go against public policy is not enforceable, at least to the extent of those terms.

As an extreme example, if the penalty for violation of a contract on the part of one of the signers was for forfeit one's, wife, cat, dog, car, boat and first born son, those penalties would not be enforceable because such penalties would go against public policy.

We do not trade in human beings in this country and the cat, dog, car and boat are property and unless specifically mortaged to the contractwith proper paperwork would be untouchable by the terms.

You can sign a contract which essentially causes you to give up many or all of your rights but it is highly unlikely that a court of competent jusrisdiction would allow wuch terms to be valid.

Checked with my attorney on this one before posting this by the way.

My $.02.

[bcp19]

But, Judge, Josh Zerlan called Satoshi Nakamoto a Monumental Asshole.

Case reopened!

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PG IS SATOSHI NAKAMOTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I FOUND HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What? no reward??