YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[k9quaint]

if I paid with bitcoin, how do I get refund from bfl. I mailed them, they denied my request.

thanks for help.

If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at  http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

[klondike_bar]

so here is my process so far for refunding a 5Ghash jalapeno purchase:

1) contact BFL for refund - no response after 3 days
2) paypal dispute (after 45days)
3) paypal dispute closed automatically (after 45 day limit)
4) call paypal:
- operator cannot refund after 45 days
- acknowledges that BF Labs Inc. has other complainants and agrees to make a note of my case in their file
- suggests calling my bank to do a cancel/chargeback
5) call bank:
- paypal was a 'preauthorised debit', meaning they cannot reverse after 24hrs
- suggest calling paypal again to resolve the issue
6) call paypal:
-new agent
-explained to her all of the above
- indicates that BF Labs has an 'account manager' (apparently a lot of large paypal sellers have one), and will email my case to that person
----> implied that the account manager has the ability to refund payments and may be able to assist my case
- I am told that I should receive a response from paypal either later today or monday/tuesday after the weekend


I guess we will see what happens. I only paid $332 CAD for my unit, so even if i get no money back and get my product in "two weeks", it is not a terrible loss, but I dont see how I could possibly receive the unit before mid-october, and thats about the time when bitfury will start shipping its $500/25Ghash pre-orders that would be a far better utility of my money

[opello]

Well, after asking the BBB's investigator for some clarification about why BFL was judged as doing nothing wrong, here's what I got:

I think if you take them to court, you have a case for a refund. I also think they have a case for not providing one. There's always nuance.

Sections of contracts/agreements trump federal regulations all the time and vice versa. Sometimes regulations dictate that certain agreements are inherently deceptive, and void the agreement. On the other hand (more often), if you agree to certain provisions, regulations that guard consumers no longer apply. They are simply nullified by your assent.

By explaining that your funds are being used right now in the development process, and stating that all pre-order sales are final, they can certainly make the case in court that no refunds are due, because everyone agreed to the terms. At that point, a judge would determine if the company is making a good faith effort to provide the pre-ordered products. This is where it gets tricky because it's completely subjective. How many months should consumers wait for a product that should have, by all accounts, been delivered in May or June? We frequently run into this problem with open-ended roofing contracts, in which customers are waiting way too long for service.  Court cases conclude with varying results on a case-by-case basis.

A few things:
1. I think we all agree that Butterfly Labs made mistakes and angered a lot of customers, especially with their use of "two months or more."
2. Based on their reputation in the industry, and materials they've provided, it appears that they are making a good faith effort to provide customers with the ordered products.
3. It is, in reality, implausible for BFL to retract their funds from development. Even though this isn't the customer's problem, it is a practical hurdle when trying to get a company to resolve a complaint filed through the BBB.

In most delivery complaints, the BBB is looking for the company to either produce the ordered products or provide refunds. In this case, they have consistently said they will provide the products by a specified date. We want to give the company an opportunity to correct this problem before turning the issue over to any regulatory agency. If we hear from you or any other customers that the goal posts have been moved back again, and they haven't made any progress with deliveries by Sept 30, we will re-open the complaints and likely contact the Attorney General's Office about it. But, right now, we think that would be premature and yield little results.

So it doesn't look like they're going to be much help until October, if at all.

[Syke]

stating that all pre-order sales are final, they can certainly make the case in court that no refunds are due

Sounds like the BBB needs an education in Internet businesses. No sale has taken place, since nothing has been delivered.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Excuses like "your funds are being used" have no basis in regulations. When delays happen (and they happen a lot with BFL), "a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;" and "You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;" are regulations that BFL must abide by.

[Bicknellski]

stating that all pre-order sales are final, they can certainly make the case in court that no refunds are due

Sounds like the BBB needs an education in Internet businesses. No sale has taken place, since nothing has been delivered.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Excuses like "your funds are being used" have no basis in regulations. When delays happen (and they happen a lot with BFL), "a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;" and "You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;" are regulations that BFL must abide by.

Yup... say it with me... BFL is just


SHADY!

[KonstantinosM]

You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 

I was only delayed for like 10 months.... Totally reasonable,

When I buy ice cream that is how long I wait (FACT).

The delays screwed us all, but at least the BTC price is super high thanks to the crisis that happened with the banks in cyprus and the whole big bubble incident...

If the prices had stayed at 200 USD levels far less BFL customers would be complaining right now!

[Xian01]

You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 

 IOW, "Fuck you. I got mine."

[vayvanne]

Did 1 pre-order and 3 orders. 2 orders was paid via Bitpay, one via paypal in April, May and June accordingly. A few days ago asked refund for 3 orders, got denial with standard reason that "all sales are final". Asked Bitpay to help with refund and will ask to Paypal soon. Additionally sent complaint to FTC.
Will inform about progress here. Thanks for attention.
vay

[Yogafan00000]

You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 

 IOW, "Fuck you. I got mine."

Don't feel too bad, my LS is currently making around 0.06BTC per day right now and dropping rapidly.  By October's end this thing will be mining dust.  I've had it running 3 weeks at a cost of 50+BTC and 13 months wait.  I'll NEVER see the 50+BTC I originally paid.

[Henchman24]

Don't feel too bad, my LS is currently making around 0.06BTC per day right now and dropping rapidly.

30GH/s generates ~0.17 btc /day at 86,933,018 difficulty.  Wait, I get it, you must be paying .11btc per day in electricity.  

I'm as pissed as anyone at BFL atm, but no need to make shit up.

[Threader]

You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 

 IOW, "Fuck you. I got mine."

Don't feel too bad, my LS is currently making around 0.06BTC per day right now and dropping rapidly.  By October's end this thing will be mining dust.  I've had it running 3 weeks at a cost of 50+BTC and 13 months wait.  I'll NEVER see the 50+BTC I originally paid.

I feel sorry for you even if you got you miner. If BFL had any honesty or integrity like Bitfury vendors the would have delivered as promised in October 2012  and the bitcoin industry or landscape would be totally different now.

All the BS BFL have been serving us is quite obviously real BULLSHIT because it doesn't take rocket science to deliver an ASIC product. Just look at BITFURY.

We have all had the long CON played on us by these scammers.

[KonstantinosM]

You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 

 IOW, "Fuck you. I got mine."

Don't feel too bad, my LS is currently making around 0.06BTC per day right now and dropping rapidly.  By October's end this thing will be mining dust.  I've had it running 3 weeks at a cost of 50+BTC and 13 months wait.  I'll NEVER see the 50+BTC I originally paid.

I feel sorry for you even if you got you miner. If BFL had any honesty or integrity like Bitfury vendors the would have delivered as promised in October 2012  and the bitcoin industry or landscape would be totally different now.

All the BS BFL have been serving us is quite obviously real BULLSHIT because it doesn't take rocket science to deliver an ASIC product. Just look at BITFURY.

We have all had the long CON played on us by these scammers.

I'm happy I have something to mine with....
I'm in Florida, electricity is truly cheap.

[Unacceptable]

You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 

 IOW, "Fuck you. I got mine."

Don't feel too bad, my LS is currently making around 0.06BTC per day right now and dropping rapidly.  By October's end this thing will be mining dust.  I've had it running 3 weeks at a cost of 50+BTC and 13 months wait.  I'll NEVER see the 50+BTC I originally paid.

I feel sorry for you even if you got you miner. If BFL had any honesty or integrity like Bitfury vendors the would have delivered as promised in October 2012  and the bitcoin industry or landscape would be totally different now.

All the BS BFL have been serving us is quite obviously real BULLSHIT because it doesn't take rocket science to deliver an ASIC product. Just look at BITFURY.

We have all had the long CON played on us by these scammers.

I'm happy I have something to mine with....
I'm in Florida, electricity is truly cheap.

Cheap   I'm in florida & pay .12 cents per Kw/h.I got my 30GH'er July 1st,I'm earning about .19 now with 33.5GH (a few BE's to make up for my GPU's going offline).

I paid 80+BTC for mine & have earned about 30BTC so far.............it'll never get'em all back    Thanks BFL 

[Bicknellski]

Love the quote at the end of the page...

My favourite version of that line is:

"If you can't find the asshole in the room it is you." Fortunately we can all identify Josh and a few of his minions flittering about.

Sad to see people get taken and won't be able to ROI on their units. This nightmare will hopefully end when they stop getting enough orders to buy ad space here and on facebook and elsewhere. Maybe the AG and FTC might have to shut them down an put a few of them in jail. Either way if you haven't tried to get a refund do it now.

[bcp19]

Love the quote at the end of the page...

My favourite version of that line is:

"If you can't find the asshole in the room it is you." Fortunately we can all identify Josh and a few of his minions flittering about.

Sad to see people get taken and won't be able to ROI on their units. This nightmare will hopefully end when they stop getting enough orders to buy ad space here and on facebook and elsewhere. Maybe the AG and FTC might have to shut them down an put a few of them in jail. Either way if you haven't tried to get a refund do it now.

What a line... 'Sad to see people get taken'.  You're so worried about BFL's customers yet you turn a blind eye to AM and his customers that get ripped off daily.  People are getting taken over and over on these forums but you have your blinders on and can only see BFL.

Maybe you need to ask WHY won't they make RoI?  That's not BFL's fault, even though you refuse to see it.  The mining community did this to themselves and are still doing it with every new purchase out there.

What is truly sad here is the people demanding refunds never did their homework.  WHY are people so adamant about getting refunds?  #1 reason, whether you admit the truth to yourself or not, is cause they can't earn what they thought they could.  People ordered a product, not a promise to become rich.  But now that it's obvious they can't get rich they want a refund.  Does the product do what it claimed it would?  Yes.  The extra power was known and everyone was sent an email and they had to say respond and say YES, they still wanted their product.  I'd would bet you if these people demanding refunds told the WHOLE truth, Paypal and their CC company would laugh them out of town.  "I paid $$$ to make $$$$!"  Pathetic.

There are no guarantees in life other than you won't get out alive.

[Bicknellski]

http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/1l5oz5/kansas_ag_replied_to_my_consumer_protection/

Kansas AG replied to my consumer protection complaint against Butterfly Labs (self.BitcoinMining)

submitted 12 days ago by edmanet

Although I recently received a refund after getting my credit card company involved, today I received an email from the Kansas Attorney General's office. I filed a complaint a while ago. They have a case number open, which means they are actively investigating BFL for their business practices.
Here is the text of the email attachment I received:

Thank you for filing an investigative request with our office. Your file number is CP-13-00##### and I will be your contact throughout this process. Our first step will be to contact the supplier and request their written response. This may take some time, but we will follow up with you as we progress. During our review, you may be asked to provide additional information. Please keep this letter handy, and refer to your file number if you send additional documents or contact us to inquire about the status of your request. Thank you for taking the time to bring this matter to our attention. We appreciate your patience as we work to assist you.

I responded that I have received a refund but also mentioned that there are potentially thousands of customer who are still un-satisfied.

If you are an un-satisfied BFL customer, I suggest visiting the Kansas AG website and filing a consumer protection complaint.
http://ag.ks.gov/about-the-office/contact-us/file-a-complaint

There is no reason to sit back and take BFL's no refund policy. File a complaint.

[Syke]

Maybe you need to ask WHY won't they make RoI?

Curious, you left out the key factor. October Delays. November Delays. December Delays. January Delays. February Delays. March Delays. April Delays. May Delays. June Delays. July Delays. August Delays. September Delays. More than 10 months after first scheduled delivery date and they still haven't finished shipping day 1 orders!

[Bicknellski]

Maybe you need to ask WHY won't they make RoI?

Curious, you left out the key factor. October Delays. November Delays. December Delays. January Delays. February Delays. March Delays. April Delays. May Delays. June Delays. July Delays. August Delays. September Delays. More than 10 months after first scheduled delivery date and they still haven't finished shipping day 1 orders!

I wonder why he did that?

[bcp19]

Maybe you need to ask WHY won't they make RoI?

Curious, you left out the key factor. October Delays. November Delays. December Delays. January Delays. February Delays. March Delays. April Delays. May Delays. June Delays. July Delays. August Delays. September Delays. More than 10 months after first scheduled delivery date and they still haven't finished shipping day 1 orders!

Curious how you yet again ignore 90% of the post to fixate on minutae.

I've already shown what would have happened with no delays and only 1 full mini-rig a day shipping.  With BTC at $12 in Dec, NO ONE other than Day 1 purchasers would have made RoI.  The WHY is the customers over-ordering without considering the consequences. 

Go ahead and bleat again about BTC to $100+ and all the other hindsight garbage that probably would not have come true due to the changing circumstance.

[Bicknellski]

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” -Arthur Schopenhauer, 1788-1860


Guessing BCP is still at first stage while the rest of the community is at stage three about BFL being shady. That is right I called BFL  S H A D Y.