YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[Syke]

Curious how you yet again ignore 90% of the post to fixate on minutae.

LOL. Being 10 months late on delivery isn't minutae. It is the core failure of BFL to uphold their side of the "sale".

I've already shown what would have happened with no delays and only 1 full mini-rig a day shipping.  With BTC at $12 in Dec, NO ONE other than Day 1 purchasers would have made RoI.  The WHY is the customers over-ordering without considering the consequences. 

Go ahead and bleat again about BTC to $100+ and all the other hindsight garbage that probably would not have come true due to the changing circumstance.

All irrelevent. Exchange rate doesn't matter. Difficulty doesn't matter. BFL failed to perform, and customers are well within their rights to request refunds. It doesn't matter why they want a refund. BFL failed.

[Lohoris]

LOL. Being 10 months late on delivery isn't minutae. It is the core failure of BFL to uphold their side of the "sale".

I've already shown what would have happened with no delays and only 1 full mini-rig a day shipping.  With BTC at $12 in Dec, NO ONE other than Day 1 purchasers would have made RoI.  The WHY is the customers over-ordering without considering the consequences. 

Go ahead and bleat again about BTC to $100+ and all the other hindsight garbage that probably would not have come true due to the changing circumstance.

All irrelevent. Exchange rate doesn't matter. Difficulty doesn't matter. BFL failed to perform, and customers are well within their rights to request refunds. It doesn't matter why they want a refund. BFL failed.

And still, there are tons of people who just wait and refuse to ask refunds.
I'm not sure if I find that more hilarous or more terrifying...

[bcp19]

LOL. Being 10 months late on delivery isn't minutae. It is the core failure of BFL to uphold their side of the "sale".

I've already shown what would have happened with no delays and only 1 full mini-rig a day shipping.  With BTC at $12 in Dec, NO ONE other than Day 1 purchasers would have made RoI.  The WHY is the customers over-ordering without considering the consequences.  

Go ahead and bleat again about BTC to $100+ and all the other hindsight garbage that probably would not have come true due to the changing circumstance.

All irrelevent. Exchange rate doesn't matter. Difficulty doesn't matter. BFL failed to perform, and customers are well within their rights to request refunds. It doesn't matter why they want a refund. BFL failed.

And still, there are tons of people who just wait and refuse to ask refunds.
I'm not sure if I find that more hilarous or more terrifying...

If BTC = $1000 today 99.9% of the refund requests would never have been made.  Exchange rate DOES matter.  "They're 4,6,8,10 months late!!!" is just an excuse to cover the REAL reason people want refunds cause they KNOW that will get it for them.  If BFL had shipped on time and people were looking at their singles making $3 a day on Dec 1, the refund requests would have gone through the roof from the SAME people clamoring for them now.

EDIT: Case in point:

Thank you for explaining this, hopefully it will sink in.

Put more directly -- ROI is dead, please bring on more refund details.

I know one guy in particular who ordered from BFL in May, started whining in less than 2 weeks, started flaming, went overboard and got banned and got his refund request approved.  I've seen him on BCT with 2 other refunded orders that I know of.  

Lohoris brings up a good point... why are more people holding onto their orders with BFl than those demanding refunds?  The answer is simple: It's the difference between the get-rich quick suckers that have(or will) jumped from company to company demanding 3 and 4 refunds in the process yet still have no product in hand and the long-term investors that want a given product at a given speed.

Bitcoin mining isn't a short term sprint, it's a marathon.  Too many sprinters are trying to win the race and are demanding refunds when they get passed.  The marathoners just smile and keep running.

[vulgartrendkill]

LOL. Being 10 months late on delivery isn't minutae. It is the core failure of BFL to uphold their side of the "sale".

I've already shown what would have happened with no delays and only 1 full mini-rig a day shipping.  With BTC at $12 in Dec, NO ONE other than Day 1 purchasers would have made RoI.  The WHY is the customers over-ordering without considering the consequences. 

Go ahead and bleat again about BTC to $100+ and all the other hindsight garbage that probably would not have come true due to the changing circumstance.

All irrelevent. Exchange rate doesn't matter. Difficulty doesn't matter. BFL failed to perform, and customers are well within their rights to request refunds. It doesn't matter why they want a refund. BFL failed.

And still, there are tons of people who just wait and refuse to ask refunds.
I'm not sure if I find that more hilarous or more terrifying...

If BTC = $1000 today 99.9% of the refund requests would never have been made.  Exchange rate DOES matter.  "They're 4,6,8,10 months late!!!" is just an excuse to cover the REAL reason people want refunds cause they KNOW that will get it for them.  If BFL had shipped on time and people were looking at their singles making $3 a day on Dec 1, the refund requests would have gone through the roof from the SAME people clamoring for them now.

I know one guy in particular who ordered from BFL in May, started whining in less than 2 weeks, started flaming, went overboard and got banned and got his refund request approved.  I've seen him on BCT with 2 other refunded orders that I know of. 

Lohoris brings up a good point... why are more people holding onto their orders with BFl than those demanding refunds?  The answer is simple: It's the difference between the get-rich quick suckers that have(or will) jumped from company to company demanding 3 and 4 refunds in the process yet still have no product in hand and the long-term investors that want a given product at a given speed.

Bitcoin mining isn't a short term sprint, it's a marathon.  Too many sprinters are trying to win the race and are demanding refunds when they get passed.  The marathoners just smile and keep running.

Personally I disagree.

The reason I wanted a refund is because of the delay in shipping, and the fact they treat their customers with disdain.  Not only that but their sales policy "all sales are final" is against the law.  Not only that but using my funds for the miner I purchased to research another tranche of 28nm pcie miners when the ones your supposed to be building arent even built yet is not on.

Use those funds to expand the company and enable better fulfilling of orders, not pile it into R&D.

Tsk.

[bcp19]

Personally I disagree.

The reason I wanted a refund is because of the delay in shipping, and the fact they treat their customers with disdain.  Not only that but their sales policy "all sales are final" is against the law.  Not only that but using my funds for the miner I purchased to research another tranche of 28nm pcie miners when the ones your supposed to be building arent even built yet is not on.

Use those funds to expand the company and enable better fulfilling of orders, not pile it into R&D.

Tsk.

Ok, 2 questions... When did you request your refund?  Have you or will you be making a purchase of ASICs from another company?

Personally I see nothing wrong in the 'all sales final'.  My daughter works at a steel mill in Pittsburgh and anyone ordering has to pay up front a non refundable deposit.  The chip foundries are the same way, you have to pay up front since you are ordering a specialty item that there is only a niche market for.  If Yifu indeed refunded everyone the amount they sent for their chips, then he is out the cost of those chips he paid the founcry and it remains to be seen if he can get them in time for them to still remain profitable.

Now you have stepped into the boundaries of the unknown.  You are ASSUMING they are using YOUR funds for research.  Do you have proof of this?  It is equally likely the profit from FPGAs and from units already shipped is what is funding that research.  The problem is neither of us can prove if that is or is not the case.  Your belief would never stand up in a court of law.

From recent blogs, it's been mentioned that they moved the building of Mini-rigs to a new area.  That to me would indicate they already ARE expanding and trying to fulfill orders better.

No, I got a refund because I passed the point when I think it's better long term to purchase the BTC and hold it than to mine for it.

You just proved my point.  You got a refund because your money-making machine won't make as much as you hoped.  Thank you.

[Ridicuss]

Lohoris brings up a good point... why are more people holding onto their orders with BFl than those demanding refunds?  The answer is simple: It's the difference between the get-rich quick suckers that have(or will) jumped from company to company demanding 3 and 4 refunds in the process yet still have no product in hand and the long-term investors that want a given product at a given speed.

Bitcoin mining isn't a short term sprint, it's a marathon.  Too many sprinters are trying to win the race and are demanding refunds when they get passed.  The marathoners just smile and keep running.

No, I got a refund because I passed the point when I think it's better long term to purchase the BTC and hold it than to mine for it.

I have to agree with CP1 and vulgartrendkill. I pulled my order mainly because the face of the company has such disdain for customers or criticism.

I originally placed an order with BFL based on the fanboi defense going on at BFL forums vs the hate going on over here. I figured what I read here was sour grapes, I even dismissed the "I will give you a quarter" video telling myself I did not have the whole story.

I was putting BFL in the underdog category and I root for underdogs often. Only one other time in my life (48years)  have I demanded a refund, it was also on a failure to deliver issue (bitcoin non related)..  

After the treatment of some unhappy customers on the BFL forum my eyes started to open. I'm not saying the customers were acting appropriately, but what is appropriate after you have waited a year or close to it?

More and more of what I read over here from the face of the company made me realize I did not want to do business with them any longer.

It would have been stupid for me to keep my order on a financial basis but if the face of the company had always or almost always acted professionally, they would still have my money. The reason for that is I did agree to the terms, I knew the risk I was taking. That being said, I did not read that I would put up with verbal abuse, pure arrogance and dismissive communication.

Regards

[Ridicuss]

Personally I disagree.

The reason I wanted a refund is because of the delay in shipping, and the fact they treat their customers with disdain.  Not only that but their sales policy "all sales are final" is against the law.  Not only that but using my funds for the miner I purchased to research another tranche of 28nm pcie miners when the ones your supposed to be building arent even built yet is not on.

Use those funds to expand the company and enable better fulfilling of orders, not pile it into R&D.

Tsk.

Ok, 2 questions... When did you request your refund?  Have you or will you be making a purchase of ASICs from another company?

Personally I see nothing wrong in the 'all sales final'.  My daughter works at a steel mill in Pittsburgh and anyone ordering has to pay up front a non refundable deposit.  The chip foundries are the same way, you have to pay up front since you are ordering a specialty item that there is only a niche market for.  If Yifu indeed refunded everyone the amount they sent for their chips, then he is out the cost of those chips he paid the founcry and it remains to be seen if he can get them in time for them to still remain profitable.

Now you have stepped into the boundaries of the unknown.  You are ASSUMING they are using YOUR funds for research.  Do you have proof of this?  It is equally likely the profit from FPGAs and from units already shipped is what is funding that research.  The problem is neither of us can prove if that is or is not the case.  Your belief would never stand up in a court of law.

From recent blogs, it's been mentioned that they moved the building of Mini-rigs to a new area.  That to me would indicate they already ARE expanding and trying to fulfill orders better.

No, I got a refund because I passed the point when I think it's better long term to purchase the BTC and hold it than to mine for it.

You just proved my point.  You got a refund because your money-making machine won't make as much as you hoped.  Thank you.

BCP,

I would like to answer your question of purchasing from another company. I did place and fully fund an order from bitfury through Dave. When I placed this order I still had fully funded orders with BFL. I had not cancelled yet. That being said. 2 months after I placed my order with Dave, my gear is hashing away nicely in my house, by bfls updates, they still have not gotten to my old place in line. Now my BFL money wont be going to the lower priced Monarch, It will be buying 800 GH/s from Dave. Yes at a higher price maybe never make a return, yada yada. But Dave acts professionally and has always treated me with respect. That treatment will always get my money.

Regards

[Lohoris]

Personally I see nothing wrong in the 'all sales final'.  My daughter works at a steel mill in Pittsburgh and anyone ordering has to pay up front a non refundable deposit.  The chip foundries are the same way, you have to pay up front since you are ordering a specialty item that there is only a niche market for.

I disagree, doesn't make sense.
If I order some steel stuff from your foundry, and you don't deliver in, say, 2 months – let alone 10! – I'm pretty sure I'll ask you my money back, because I need that steel stuff to produce my stuff, and if you can't deliver I'll have to buy it somewhere else.
Your delay would be causing my delay for my customers, and I really don't want angry customers, so you'll better ship or pay back promptly.

Hope it's clear.

[Ridicuss]

Personally I see nothing wrong in the 'all sales final'.  My daughter works at a steel mill in Pittsburgh and anyone ordering has to pay up front a non refundable deposit.  The chip foundries are the same way, you have to pay up front since you are ordering a specialty item that there is only a niche market for.

I disagree, doesn't make sense.
If I order some steel stuff from your foundry, and you don't deliver in, say, 2 months – let alone 10! – I'm pretty sure I'll ask you my money back, because I need that steel stuff to produce my stuff, and if you can't deliver I'll have to buy it somewhere else.
Your delay would be causing my delay for my customers, and I really don't want angry customers, so you'll better ship or pay back promptly.

Hope it's clear.

Lohoris is absolutely correct about this.

My company does buy mill scale from foundries. We use it as an Iron source for our products. If you don't deliver, its a breach of contract and we are done with you. These are very large contracts and mill scale sellers hop to the beat of our drum, not the other way around.

Regards,

[Syke]

Personally I see nothing wrong in the 'all sales final'.

Which is fine, once a sale has been completed. But until the item is shipped, no "sale" has occured. The FTC requires BFL to notify customers of delays and offer full refunds. BFL is violating FTC regulations. Why the customer wants a refund is irrelevent.

My daughter works at a steel mill in Pittsburgh and anyone ordering has to pay up front a non refundable deposit.  The chip foundries are the same way, you have to pay up front since you are ordering a specialty item that there is only a niche market for.  If Yifu indeed refunded everyone the amount they sent for their chips, then he is out the cost of those chips he paid the founcry and it remains to be seen if he can get them in time for them to still remain profitable.

The difference being BFL units are exactly the same from order to order. These are not custom products. Every Jalapeno is exactly the same as every other one.

[shmadz]

And still, there are tons of people who just wait and refuse to ask refunds.
I'm not sure if I find that more hilarous or more terrifying...

I must admit, I am one of the "tons of people who just wait and refuse to ask refunds."

A little background might be in order, I did order from BFL, once I failed to get an order in the first round of the avalon batch 2 clusterf**k (Feb 2 I think?) I panicked and placed an order with BFL. -- a couple weeks later avalon re-opened their batch 2 order (Feb 18 I think?) and I was able to get in on that *(thanks to the ASIC gods, that order actually arrived and reached 100% ROI less than 2 months after arriving)

Since it now seems that BFL is slowly working through the backlog, I am still confident enough that when/if I finally receive my order I should be able to mine a commensurate amount of BTC when compared to the fiat price I paid. (which at the time was half the price that they later started charging)

I hope this will clarify the thought process of at least one of the "tons of people who just wait and refuse to ask refunds."

(*edit*) - I will of course seek a refund if this fiasco stretches on beyond the end of October.

[Lohoris]

Since it now seems that BFL is slowly working through the backlog, I am still confident enough that when/if I finally receive my order I should be able to mine a commensurate amount of BTC when compared to the fiat price I paid. (which at the time was half the price that they later started charging)

I hope this will clarify the thought process of at least one of the "tons of people who just wait and refuse to ask refunds."

I'm happy and a bit relieved to know that at least one has actually tried to do some math and there is a sound reason if he didn't ask for the refund.

I mean, I don't know if your math is correct, and I also disagree with your optimism about actually receiving your order, but at least you thought, and this is very good. Time will tell if you were or weren't right : )

(*edit*) - I will of course seek a refund if this fiasco stretches on beyond the end of October.

Please don't forget that once the funds run out and the ship is sunk, it's too late.
Consider this.

[bcp19]

Personally I see nothing wrong in the 'all sales final'.  My daughter works at a steel mill in Pittsburgh and anyone ordering has to pay up front a non refundable deposit.  The chip foundries are the same way, you have to pay up front since you are ordering a specialty item that there is only a niche market for.

I disagree, doesn't make sense.
If I order some steel stuff from your foundry, and you don't deliver in, say, 2 months – let alone 10! – I'm pretty sure I'll ask you my money back, because I need that steel stuff to produce my stuff, and if you can't deliver I'll have to buy it somewhere else.
Your delay would be causing my delay for my customers, and I really don't want angry customers, so you'll better ship or pay back promptly.

Hope it's clear.

Lohoris is absolutly correct about this. My company does buy mill scale from foundries. We use it as an Iron source for our products. If you don't deliver, its a breach of contract and we are done with you. These are very large contracts and mill scale sellers hop to the beat of our drum, not the other way around.

Regards,

Ok, answer me this then, are you the only company using said foundry?  When you place an order, are you not told it'll be X days before they can even START on your order and that it'll then take Y days to complete and to expect it on a certain date?  If you realize you made a mistake a week down the road and need 2x your original order, you'll have to again wait your line in the queue to receive the rest of your order, will you not?  BFL ended up with a mistake like this... IIRC, they were to have 1 chip for Jala's and 4(?) for LS's and the full 8 for Singles and MR's.  Even if they did not need to fully double their quantity of chips  needed, they had to order more.  If you received your mill order and found out you really needed 1.5x a much, how long would it take you to get that extra?

Chips foundries take on average 100 days from order to completion.  I highly doubt your steel foundry has quite that much lead time.  A lot can happen over 100 days and god forbid you had to start from scratch.

[Ridicuss]

Personally I see nothing wrong in the 'all sales final'.  My daughter works at a steel mill in Pittsburgh and anyone ordering has to pay up front a non refundable deposit.  The chip foundries are the same way, you have to pay up front since you are ordering a specialty item that there is only a niche market for.

I disagree, doesn't make sense.
If I order some steel stuff from your foundry, and you don't deliver in, say, 2 months – let alone 10! – I'm pretty sure I'll ask you my money back, because I need that steel stuff to produce my stuff, and if you can't deliver I'll have to buy it somewhere else.
Your delay would be causing my delay for my customers, and I really don't want angry customers, so you'll better ship or pay back promptly.

Hope it's clear.

Lohoris is absolutly correct about this. My company does buy mill scale from foundries. We use it as an Iron source for our products. If you don't deliver, its a breach of contract and we are done with you. These are very large contracts and mill scale sellers hop to the beat of our drum, not the other way around.

Regards,

Ok, answer me this then, are you the only company using said foundry?  When you place an order, are you not told it'll be X days before they can even START on your order and that it'll then take Y days to complete and to expect it on a certain date?  If you realize you made a mistake a week down the road and need 2x your original order, you'll have to again wait your line in the queue to receive the rest of your order, will you not?  BFL ended up with a mistake like this... IIRC, they were to have 1 chip for Jala's and 4(?) for LS's and the full 8 for Singles and MR's.  Even if they did not need to fully double their quantity of chips  needed, they had to order more.  If you received your mill order and found out you really needed 1.5x a much, how long would it take you to get that extra?

Chips foundries take on average 100 days from order to completion.  I highly doubt your steel foundry has quite that much lead time.  A lot can happen over 100 days and god forbid you had to start from scratch.

Unfortunately, your foundry is a poor analogy, but you chose to use it. Mill Scale is highly available it is a byproduct of steel manufacturing, among other sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_scale

We have been in business for over 60 years and we don't make mistakes like running out of raw products, and if we did, the purchasing manager would be out of job. We keep enough raw material on hand to keep us running for months in advance. Constant inventory replenishment. There is never "We can start on your order in x number of days" It is delivered by rail car within the week we ask for it to be delivered.  And as for our products they are delivered on the site when requested.
We don't do just in time ordering, and we don't run out of products, our own or raw materials purchased.

Now to address the only company using said foundry; No we aren't. And no we don't only source from one company. We use a pool of lowest bids. Maybe BFL could learn from that. Multiple sources can prevent you from running out. And "God forbid they did have to start from scratch" and look where that has put them. Did somebody get fired over the colossal supply chain snafu? Did they apologies to customers and do everything they could to make it right?
Were they transparent at every level and let their customers, mm investors, errr not quite right either, Monumental assholes I think thats the one know what was going on?
Or to at least give the customer the impression they did? The antics of the face of BFL would suggest otherwise.

We cant afford to do it the way BFL did it, we have competition. If we followed the BFL model, we would be out of business.

I can guarantee this as well:
 Customer relations can be a very tricky thing. Do we have customer complaints. Absolutely, not many, but they do happen. How do we resolve complaints? By treating the customer with respect and doing everything we can to make them happy, even if they don't know what they are talking about. Are the customers always right? We treat them like they are, even if it costs us money. The reason for that is we know if it was to cost us a little now by retaining them it gains us more in the long run. If any agents of our company were to become a bit disrespectful to a customer they will be terminated. Have we ever lost customers? Unfortunately, yes. Most have returned after realizing it isn't always greener on the other side and  a lot of grandiose promises cant be met. We never ask for an apology from the customer. If they come back, they are treated just as if they never left.

I get this feeling, you are affiliated with BFL?  Not just a customer?  If you are an agent or affiliate please take some of the information provided above to try and save your company. Even if you just use the customer retention strategy above, you will keep a few more customers. If BFL had treated all customers as I stated above, BFL would still have my money wise on my part or not, it is the truth.

We are definitely talking about very different products here, but at least the supply chain strategy and customer retention strategy do work, and would work for BFL.

From some of your questions to me, I feel you dont have much experience in industrial manufacturing. And from the fundamental nature of your question about running out of steel from a foundry. Do you think GM, Ford, Chrysler run out of steel?

Yes, we are on that level.

For me it comes down to this, BFL needs a fundamental culture mindset change.

Unrelated tidbit. We also use a very effective employee retention strategy.

Regards,

[bcp19]

bcp,

I would like to answer your question of purchasing from another company. I did place and fully fund an order from bitfury through Dave. When I placed this order I still had fully funded orders with BFL. I had not cancelled yet. That being said. 2 months after I placed my order with Dave, my gear is hashing away nicely in my house, by bfls updates, they still have not gotten to my old place in line. Now my BFL money wont be going to the lower priced Monarch, It will be buying 800 GH/s from Dave. Yes at a higher price maybe never make a return, yada yada. But Dave acts professionally and has always treated me with respect. That treatment will always get my money.

Regards

I can't help looking at your other post...

After the treatment of some unhappy customers on the BFL forum my eyes started to open. I'm not saying the customers were acting appropriately, but what is appropriate after you have waited a year or close to it?

I've read through my fair share of old posts as well, and I know exactly what you are saying, but one problem with the internet is people will lash out like they never would in person.  People also jump to snap decisions based off of faulty logic or assumed insults.  It amazes me I can write 3 or 4 paragraphs and some troll will pull 3 or 4 words out of it and turn the meaning 180 degrees out.  I also tend to laugh at the people who feel that swearing is necessary and who will double or triple thier swearing if you mention it.

I was brought up to be respectful to others, but I am human and I can only take so much.  I doubt Ghandi could keep his cool with the onslaught the people around here tend to dish out.  I can see Mother Theresa wading through here with a yardstick in her handslooking like Luke Skywalker weilding a lightsaber, swatting people left and right to modify their behavior.

You have your views and I have mine.  I personally have been courteous and respectful in my communications with BFL and they have been equally as courteous and respectful in return.  While I view responses to others as outside my purview, you, by your admission, take umbrage with them.  That is your perogative.  Each person has their own tolerance levels.

Unlike you, none of the other companies offer a product within my budget (I refuse to buy the overpriced toys AM sells).  I had a good idea of how long I would wait and what difficulty would be by the time I received my order and I was satisfied with that.  I currently make more from 5 CPUs mining XPM than I will likely make from my Jalapeno when I receive it, but that matters not to me.

I can say with complete honesty that I have made more BTC due to BFL's problems than I would have if they had shipped on time.  While I understand the same is not true for all of BFL's customers, I am fairly certain from my modeling that very few who had not gotten in on the 1st day or week of orders have truly 'lost' much.  Sadly we'll never know for sure, as I can't see BFL releasing the information to make an accurate model.

[Ridicuss]

bcp,

I would like to answer your question of purchasing from another company. I did place and fully fund an order from bitfury through Dave. When I placed this order I still had fully funded orders with BFL. I had not cancelled yet. That being said. 2 months after I placed my order with Dave, my gear is hashing away nicely in my house, by bfls updates, they still have not gotten to my old place in line. Now my BFL money wont be going to the lower priced Monarch, It will be buying 800 GH/s from Dave. Yes at a higher price maybe never make a return, yada yada. But Dave acts professionally and has always treated me with respect. That treatment will always get my money.

Regards

I can't help looking at your other post...

After the treatment of some unhappy customers on the BFL forum my eyes started to open. I'm not saying the customers were acting appropriately, but what is appropriate after you have waited a year or close to it?

I've read through my fair share of old posts as well, and I know exactly what you are saying, but one problem with the internet is people will lash out like they never would in person.  People also jump to snap decisions based off of faulty logic or assumed insults.  It amazes me I can write 3 or 4 paragraphs and some troll will pull 3 or 4 words out of it and turn the meaning 180 degrees out.  I also tend to laugh at the people who feel that swearing is necessary and who will double or triple thier swearing if you mention it.

I was brought up to be respectful to others, but I am human and I can only take so much.  I doubt Ghandi could keep his cool with the onslaught the people around here tend to dish out.  I can see Mother Theresa wading through here with a yardstick in her handslooking like Luke Skywalker weilding a lightsaber, swatting people left and right to modify their behavior.

You have your views and I have mine.  I personally have been courteous and respectful in my communications with BFL and they have been equally as courteous and respectful in return.  While I view responses to others as outside my purview, you, by your admission, take umbrage with them.  That is your perogative.  Each person has their own tolerance levels.

Unlike you, none of the other companies offer a product within my budget (I refuse to buy the overpriced toys AM sells).  I had a good idea of how long I would wait and what difficulty would be by the time I received my order and I was satisfied with that.  I currently make more from 5 CPUs mining XPM than I will likely make from my Jalapeno when I receive it, but that matters not to me.

I can say with complete honesty that I have made more BTC due to BFL's problems than I would have if they had shipped on time.  While I understand the same is not true for all of BFL's customers, I am fairly certain from my modeling that very few who had not gotten in on the 1st day or week of orders have truly 'lost' much.  Sadly we'll never know for sure, as I can't see BFL releasing the information to make an accurate model.

I respect your candor and your stance. We will have to differ on certain matters as it pertains to BFL. I have to agree with you on the actions of swearing and so forth and will not deny that I may be guilty of such.

It generally is not in my nature and most the time I get to delete it before it get posted. Or hopefully before it gets quoted.  

I like to say I do this as a hobby, that's my own brainwashing to let me accept i lost money. Speaking for myself here, no one else.  

I agree on overpriced toys but I do have some. Never naive enough to think they will ever pay for themselves at any rate. Again, Hobby justification.


Respectfully,

R

[bcp19]

Unfortunately, your foundry is a poor analogy, but you chose to use it. Mill Scale is highly available it is a byproduct of steel manufacturing, among other sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_scale

We have been in business for over 60 years and we don't make mistakes like running out of raw products, and if we did, the purchasing manager would be out of job. We keep enough raw material on hand to keep us running for months in advance. Constant inventory replenishment. There is never "We can start on your order in x number of days" It is delivered by rail car within the week we ask for it to be delivered.  And as for our products they are delivered on the site when requested.
We don't do just in time ordering, and we don't run out of products, our own or raw materials purchased.

Now to address the only company using said foundry; No we aren't. And no we don't only source from one company. We use a pool of lowest bids. Maybe BFL could learn from that. Multiple sources can prevent you from running out. And "God forbid they did have to start from scratch" and look where that has put them. Did somebody get fired over the colossal supply chain snafu? Did they apologies to customers and do everything they could to make it right?
Were they transparent at every level and let their customers, mm investors, errr not quite right either, Monumental assholes I think thats the one know what was going on?
Or to at least give the customer the impression they did? The antics of the face of BFL would suggest otherwise.

We cant afford to do it the way BFL did it, we have competition. If we followed the BFL model, we would be out of business.

I can guarantee this as well:
 Customer relations can be a very tricky thing. Do we have customer complaints. Absolutely, not many, but they do happen. How do we resolve complaints? By treating the customer with respect and doing everything we can to make them happy, even if they don't know what they are talking about. Are the customers always right? We treat them like they are, even if it costs us money. The reason for that is we know if it was to cost us a little now by retaining them it gains us more in the long run. If any agents of our company were to become a bit disrespectful to a customer they will be terminated. Have we ever lost customers? Unfortunately, yes. Most have returned after realizing it isn't always greener on the other side and  a lot of grandiose promises cant be met. We never ask for an apology from the customer. If they come back, they are treated just as if they never left.

I get this feeling, you are affiliated with BFL?  Not just a customer?  If you are an agent or affiliate please take some of the information provided above to try and save your company. Even if you just use the customer retention strategy above, you will keep a few more customers. If BFL had treated all customers as I stated above, BFL would still have my money wise on my part or not, it is the truth.

We are definitely talking about very different products here, but at least the supply chain strategy and customer retention strategy do work, and would work for BFL.

From some of your questions to me, I feel you dont have much experience in industrial manufacturing. And from the fundamental nature of your question about running out of steel from a foundry. Do you think GM, Ford, Chrysler run out of steel?

Yes, we are on that level.

For me it comes down to this, BFL needs a fundamental culture mindset change.

Unrelated tidbit. We also use a very effective employee retention strategy.

Regards,

Indeed, I was wrong, I did not realize the level you are used to running at.  It is obvious to me now that a mill foundry should never be compared to a chip foundry.  I thank you for the education.

No, I am not affiliated with BFL.  I do however have an above average grasp on mathematical models and a fairly extensive background in electronics having spent 20 years as an aviation electronics technician in the Navy.  By just taking 1% of the 'net worth' of BTC on Jun 23, I could see what the effect would be if that were used to purchase from BFL.  From there it was easy to see the spiral that we are now seeing due to the price increase in BTC and the deluge of ASIC products now shipping.  It would have been much worse last Oct.

Your views on the customer are correct for your business model, but I'd imagine your customer base is likely 1/10th of BFL's or less.  You are unlikely to be venturing into uncharted territory like BFL has done.  3 companies took on the challenge and each approached it differently.  Avalon and AM went for volume as they were make 333 and 400MH chips.  it's easy to add a few extra chips if you get things wrong.  BFL was more ambitious.  I don't honestly know what speed they were going for, but they ended up around 4GH which was slower than they had planned on.  Compared to Avalon and AM they had a major problem with a need for 1.5-2x the chips they expected.  Unlike your business, the customers here seem to operate under the feeling that they alone would have the ASIC and they'd have BTC rolling in hand over fist.  When the bubble burst and reality crept in they lashed out and in far greater numbers than your company ever had to deal with.

The supply chain issues would also not work.  Chip technology today is in many different sizes.  180nm, 150nm, 110nm, 90nm, 65nm, 55nm 28nm.  I doubt you could send the same specs to 2 different foundries and get the same results.  I could be wrong.  But from the foundries they have to be sent to a bumping facility.  Somewhere in there the chips have to be 'binned'.  I asked a question about binning and was told Grade B and lower were only used on Jalapenos.  Grade A normally encompases only 60% of a wafer of chips, however I was also told that a majority of the Grade B were testing out at Grade A, so it sounds like they had a good FAB there.  From there you need to populate the boards.  Unless foundries have bumping facilities, you already have 4 different companies working together between the foundry, bumping fac, PCB manufacturer and the Assemblers.  And the product isn't even to BFL yet.

Your foundry is simplicity indeed when compared to a chip foundry.

[Ridicuss]

Unfortunately, your foundry is a poor analogy, but you chose to use it. Mill Scale is highly available it is a byproduct of steel manufacturing, among other sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_scale

We have been in business for over 60 years and we don't make mistakes like running out of raw products, and if we did, the purchasing manager would be out of job. We keep enough raw material on hand to keep us running for months in advance. Constant inventory replenishment. There is never "We can start on your order in x number of days" It is delivered by rail car within the week we ask for it to be delivered.  And as for our products they are delivered on the site when requested.
We don't do just in time ordering, and we don't run out of products, our own or raw materials purchased.

Now to address the only company using said foundry; No we aren't. And no we don't only source from one company. We use a pool of lowest bids. Maybe BFL could learn from that. Multiple sources can prevent you from running out. And "God forbid they did have to start from scratch" and look where that has put them. Did somebody get fired over the colossal supply chain snafu? Did they apologies to customers and do everything they could to make it right?
Were they transparent at every level and let their customers, mm investors, errr not quite right either, Monumental assholes I think thats the one know what was going on?
Or to at least give the customer the impression they did? The antics of the face of BFL would suggest otherwise.

We cant afford to do it the way BFL did it, we have competition. If we followed the BFL model, we would be out of business.

I can guarantee this as well:
 Customer relations can be a very tricky thing. Do we have customer complaints. Absolutely, not many, but they do happen. How do we resolve complaints? By treating the customer with respect and doing everything we can to make them happy, even if they don't know what they are talking about. Are the customers always right? We treat them like they are, even if it costs us money. The reason for that is we know if it was to cost us a little now by retaining them it gains us more in the long run. If any agents of our company were to become a bit disrespectful to a customer they will be terminated. Have we ever lost customers? Unfortunately, yes. Most have returned after realizing it isn't always greener on the other side and  a lot of grandiose promises cant be met. We never ask for an apology from the customer. If they come back, they are treated just as if they never left.

I get this feeling, you are affiliated with BFL?  Not just a customer?  If you are an agent or affiliate please take some of the information provided above to try and save your company. Even if you just use the customer retention strategy above, you will keep a few more customers. If BFL had treated all customers as I stated above, BFL would still have my money wise on my part or not, it is the truth.

We are definitely talking about very different products here, but at least the supply chain strategy and customer retention strategy do work, and would work for BFL.

From some of your questions to me, I feel you dont have much experience in industrial manufacturing. And from the fundamental nature of your question about running out of steel from a foundry. Do you think GM, Ford, Chrysler run out of steel?

Yes, we are on that level.

For me it comes down to this, BFL needs a fundamental culture mindset change.

Unrelated tidbit. We also use a very effective employee retention strategy.

Regards,

Indeed, I was wrong, I did not realize the level you are used to running at.  It is obvious to me now that a mill foundry should never be compared to a chip foundry.  I thank you for the education.

No, I am not affiliated with BFL.  I do however have an above average grasp on mathematical models and a fairly extensive background in electronics having spent 20 years as an aviation electronics technician in the Navy.  By just taking 1% of the 'net worth' of BTC on Jun 23, I could see what the effect would be if that were used to purchase from BFL.  From there it was easy to see the spiral that we are now seeing due to the price increase in BTC and the deluge of ASIC products now shipping.  It would have been much worse last Oct.

Your views on the customer are correct for your business model, but I'd imagine your customer base is likely 1/10th of BFL's or less.  You are unlikely to be venturing into uncharted territory like BFL has done.  3 companies took on the challenge and each approached it differently.  Avalon and AM went for volume as they were make 333 and 400MH chips.  it's easy to add a few extra chips if you get things wrong.  BFL was more ambitious.  I don't honestly know what speed they were going for, but they ended up around 4GH which was slower than they had planned on.  Compared to Avalon and AM they had a major problem with a need for 1.5-2x the chips they expected.  Unlike your business, the customers here seem to operate under the feeling that they alone would have the ASIC and they'd have BTC rolling in hand over fist.  When the bubble burst and reality crept in they lashed out and in far greater numbers than your company ever had to deal with.

The supply chain issues would also not work.  Chip technology today is in many different sizes.  180nm, 150nm, 110nm, 90nm, 65nm, 55nm 28nm.  I doubt you could send the same specs to 2 different foundries and get the same results.  I could be wrong.  But from the foundries they have to be sent to a bumping facility.  Somewhere in there the chips have to be 'binned'.  I asked a question about binning and was told Grade B and lower were only used on Jalapenos.  Grade A normally encompases only 60% of a wafer of chips, however I was also told that a majority of the Grade B were testing out at Grade A, so it sounds like they had a good FAB there.  From there you need to populate the boards.  Unless foundries have bumping facilities, you already have 4 different companies working together between the foundry, bumping fac, PCB manufacturer and the Assemblers.  And the product isn't even to BFL yet.

Your foundry is simplicity indeed when compared to a chip foundry.

Agreed on all points you make here. I doubt on # of individual direct customer numbers we are even close to 1/10th of BFL numbers.

Thank you for you service to our country.

Now how the hell did get through all that without swearing at each other. LOL

[bcp19]

Agreed on all points you make here. I doubt on # of individual direct customer numbers we are even close to 1/10th of BFL numbers.

Thank you for you service to our country.

Now how the hell did get through all that without swearing at each other. LOL

We must be the 2 politest people on BCT.

[Lohoris]

(I refuse to buy the overpriced toys AM sells)
[...]
I currently make more from 5 CPUs mining XPM than I will likely make from my Jalapeno when I receive it, but that matters not to me.

Please take no offence, but this sounds to me like a contradiction.

First you say you don't want "overpriced toys", then you say that it "doesn't matter to you" if you chose a suboptimal money-making strategy.

Either you are in it for the money (and you should use optimal strategy) or you are in it for the lulz (and "toys" should do just fine, especially if you can actually have them instead of being of imaginary thin air).