YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[vayvanne]

Two days ago asked for refund in Paypal resolutions centre, for order of $312 (Jala) made at April, 4, 2013. They closed case because it was opened for more than 45 day after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria. What I can do next?

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[stevendevlin]

Two days ago asked for refund in Paypal resolutions centre, for order of $312 (Jala) made at April, 4, 2013. They closed case because it was opened for more than 45 day after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria. What I can do next?

Check over here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295187.0

lajz has the way to get a PayPal refund, just PM him

[gump]

Interesting summary, thank you for posting this.

I just encountered a similar problem with PayPal, unsurprisingly; the case having been summarily closed without any notice to me.  I just contacted them via fraud@paypal.com -- unable to get a real person on the support line.   I also advised them that I have retained legal counsel (which I have, actually).   We filed detailed complaints against BFL with the Federal Trade Commission and with the local Attorney General.

Essentially, I suspect BFL is running a very clever PONZI scheme.

[gump]

It's not surprising.  I suggest contacting fraud@paypal.com (and there's suggested addresses on the other threads here).

If you are serious, contact an attorney -- let PayPal know that you have legal representation (but don't threaten, they will get the hint).   Further, file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and your State's Attorney General office.  Certainly, with any credit card you used (or Bank).

[colinistheman]

Are BFL refunds from PayPal working still?

I have 2 orders. One for $308 and one for $1283 that I want to get refunded. I just want to know if it's still possible.

[colinistheman]

Are BFL refunds from PayPal working still?

I have 2 orders. One for $308 and one for $1283 that I want to get refunded. I just want to know if it's still possible.

Go for it.  The longer you wait, the harder it gets.  If you're past 45 days they'll always auto deny you.  If you email the people in laz's thread after you're denied you should have decent luck.  If you paid by credit card then you shouldn't have a problem.

Ok,
I submitted the PayPal disputes. As you said, both were closed within a minute due to being over 45 days.
However, I then emailed three email addresses that I gathered from these forums with a well-written message asking for an escalation of my claims. I included these facts:

    the goods were sold on a pre-order basis for delivery in around 2 months
    you have not yet received delivery of the goods you ordered and it's been months
    they have continuously failed to meet delivery deadlines
    they have refused you a refund

The three email addresses I emailed are: david.marcus@paypal.com, executiveoffice@paypal.com, fraud@paypal.com

Did I do it right? Any email addresses I missed?

Thanks

[BTCscraper]

Are BFL refunds from PayPal working still?

I have 2 orders. One for $308 and one for $1283 that I want to get refunded. I just want to know if it's still possible.

Go for it.  The longer you wait, the harder it gets.  If you're past 45 days they'll always auto deny you.  If you email the people in laz's thread after you're denied you should have decent luck.  If you paid by credit card then you shouldn't have a problem.

Ok,
I submitted the PayPal disputes. As you said, both were closed within a minute due to being over 45 days.
However, I then emailed three email addresses that I gathered from these forums with a well-written message asking for an escalation of my claims. I included these facts:

    the goods were sold on a pre-order basis for delivery in around 2 months
    you have not yet received delivery of the goods you ordered and it's been months
    they have continuously failed to meet delivery deadlines
    they have refused you a refund

The three email addresses I emailed are: david.marcus@paypal.com, executiveoffice@paypal.com, fraud@paypal.com

Did I do it right? Any email addresses I missed?

Thanks

David Marcus would have been adequate.  The question is, does BFL's PP account still have funds?  If it's zeroed out, you'll get the response that other people have gotten -- no more refunds because it's over 45 days.

[colinistheman]

Are BFL refunds from PayPal working still?

I have 2 orders. One for $308 and one for $1283 that I want to get refunded. I just want to know if it's still possible.

Go for it.  The longer you wait, the harder it gets.  If you're past 45 days they'll always auto deny you.  If you email the people in laz's thread after you're denied you should have decent luck.  If you paid by credit card then you shouldn't have a problem.

Ok,
I submitted the PayPal disputes. As you said, both were closed within a minute due to being over 45 days.
However, I then emailed three email addresses that I gathered from these forums with a well-written message asking for an escalation of my claims. I included these facts:

    the goods were sold on a pre-order basis for delivery in around 2 months
    you have not yet received delivery of the goods you ordered and it's been months
    they have continuously failed to meet delivery deadlines
    they have refused you a refund

The three email addresses I emailed are: david.marcus@paypal.com, executiveoffice@paypal.com, fraud@paypal.com

Did I do it right? Any email addresses I missed?

Thanks

David Marcus would have been adequate.  The question is, does BFL's PP account still have funds?  If it's zeroed out, you'll get the response that other people have gotten -- no more refunds because it's over 45 days.

Oh damn, I didn't even consider that they wouldn't refund if BFL had no more money in their PayPal account. It shouldn't work that way though because I run an online business with PayPal and PayPal simply deducts it from your backup payment source. Losing a claim is losing a claim and payment is required. At least that's what I thought. I would be pretty surprised if they thought my claim was legitimate but didn't make BFL pay just because "there wasn't enough funds in the account".

[Lohoris]

Oh damn, I didn't even consider that they wouldn't refund if BFL had no more money in their PayPal account. It shouldn't work that way though because I run an online business with PayPal and PayPal simply deducts it from your backup payment source. Losing a claim is losing a claim and payment is required. At least that's what I thought. I would be pretty surprised if they thought my claim was legitimate but didn't make BFL pay just because "there wasn't enough funds in the account".

Well, I'm pretty sure something like that must have happened somewere in past, even if not in the bitcoin world.
So, it should be known what happens.
I'd say it's quite likely that if they want their money, they'll take it from your bank obviously, and if your bank account is zeroed I guess they might bring you to court.

However, as I said, I think it really is known what happens in this case, it's only matter of finding someone who does know it.

[vayvanne]

filed complaint to Missouri Attorney General's Office, they promised give the answer in 30-60 days. I do not clearly understand what exactly they can do, is it the time to ask help UK consumer protection services not waiting for AGO reply? Is it time to contact lawyer and start legal actions?

[BTCscraper]

Oh damn, I didn't even consider that they wouldn't refund if BFL had no more money in their PayPal account. It shouldn't work that way though because I run an online business with PayPal and PayPal simply deducts it from your backup payment source. Losing a claim is losing a claim and payment is required. At least that's what I thought. I would be pretty surprised if they thought my claim was legitimate but didn't make BFL pay just because "there wasn't enough funds in the account".

True, but if the backup account doesn't have funds either, then it's really zero.  BFL probably wouldn't fund it unless PP threatens legal action, and only if they're afraid of PP.  They not scared of the FTC, the KS AG, or the BBB, so why be of PP?  BFL could even have moved their PP-linked bank funds to another account when PP garnished their PP account.

filed complaint to Missouri Attorney General's Office, they promised give the answer in 30-60 days. I do not clearly understand what exactly they can do, is it the time to ask help UK consumer protection services not waiting for AGO reply? Is it time to contact lawyer and start legal actions?

BFL's address is "10770 El Monte, Leawood, KS 66211".  The MO AG won't be able to do anything, but if you filed with the KS AG, they will forward your complaint to the Johnson County District Attorney, whose jurisdiction includes BFL's address.

[LostDutchman]

filed complaint to Missouri Attorney General's Office, they promised give the answer in 30-60 days. I do not clearly understand what exactly they can do, is it the time to ask help UK consumer protection services not waiting for AGO reply? Is it time to contact lawyer and start legal actions?

Actually the Mo AG can indeed instigate an investigation into BFL and can indeed file whatever kind of actions it deems appropriate because the complaintant resides in Missouri.

The same is true for "customers" of BFL residing in any state.

Can you imagine like 37 state's Attorney Generals going after BFL?

Could be enough for BFL Josh to sell the lease on his airplane!

LOL!

My $.02.

[colinistheman]

Oh damn, I didn't even consider that they wouldn't refund if BFL had no more money in their PayPal account. It shouldn't work that way though because I run an online business with PayPal and PayPal simply deducts it from your backup payment source. Losing a claim is losing a claim and payment is required. At least that's what I thought. I would be pretty surprised if they thought my claim was legitimate but didn't make BFL pay just because "there wasn't enough funds in the account".

True, but if the backup account doesn't have funds either, then it's really zero.  BFL probably wouldn't fund it unless PP threatens legal action, and only if they're afraid of PP.  They not scared of the FTC, the KS AG, or the BBB, so why be of PP?  BFL could even have moved their PP-linked bank funds to another account when PP garnished their PP account.

True, I didn't think of that. If they have already gotten so much flak from people doing refunds, it would be easy to assume BFL has completely abandoned PayPal and would have taken their back-up bank account money elsewhere. They probaly don't even have that same backup bank account funding source any more.

So there's probably no hope of getting my money back now if that is the case...

BTCscraper said "David Marcus would have been adequate" in reference to who I should have emailed about escalating my PayPal claim. Well, I sent David Marcus an email. But it sounds like I won't be getting anywhere if there's no more BFL money available to PayPal to refund to me?

[LostDutchman]

All one has to do to stop Paypal refunds from hitting a bank account or credit card is to close the accounts.

Refunds then bounce back to Paypal and Paypal goes from there.

Move the money from one account to another and "POOF!"!

The above information is 100% correct and if you doubt me, check it out on your own!

Fact.

[colinistheman]

All one has to do to stop Paypal refunds from hitting a bank account or credit card is to close the accounts.

Refunds then bounce back to Paypal and Paypal goes from there.

Move the money from one account to another and "POOF!"!

The above information is 100% correct and if you doubt me, check it out on your own!

Fact.

Well, I believe what you're saying but that doesn't help it be any less disappointing that I won't get my money back

[LostDutchman]

All one has to do to stop Paypal refunds from hitting a bank account or credit card is to close the accounts.

Refunds then bounce back to Paypal and Paypal goes from there.

Move the money from one account to another and "POOF!"!

The above information is 100% correct and if you doubt me, check it out on your own!

Fact.

Well, I believe what you're saying but that doesn't help it be any less disappointing that I won't get my money back

I wish I could help you but there is virtually nothing I can do.

Sincerely wish it were otherwise.

[colinistheman]

Lesson learned on my end

On the positive side of things, I did file a claim with my credit card about 2 months ago for another order with BFL for about $1300 and I got that money back. So at least I got one refunded.

[Bicknellski]

Lesson learned on my end

On the positive side of things, I did file a claim with my credit card about 2 months ago for another order with BFL for about $1300 and I got that money back. So at least I got one refunded.

PTL!

[vulgartrendkill]

Lesson learned on my end

On the positive side of things, I did file a claim with my credit card about 2 months ago for another order with BFL for about $1300 and I got that money back. So at least I got one refunded.

PTL!

THey still havent refunded my 'upgrade fee' for my cancelled 60gh single order.  THey confirmed they had it and offered a 'credit' towards another order, but it never appeared on my account.  I asked for a refund in btc or bank xfer and surprise surprise have gone silent.

I have referred the matter to the fraud deptment of my bank, so we will see where that takes us.

[Bicknellski]

Lesson learned on my end

On the positive side of things, I did file a claim with my credit card about 2 months ago for another order with BFL for about $1300 and I got that money back. So at least I got one refunded.

PTL!

THey still havent refunded my 'upgrade fee' for my cancelled 60gh single order.  THey confirmed they had it and offered a 'credit' towards another order, but it never appeared on my account.  I asked for a refund in btc or bank xfer and surprise surprise have gone silent.

I have referred the matter to the fraud deptment of my bank, so we will see where that takes us.

What a bunch of scumbags. Plain and simple.