► ► ►HashFast Endorsement

[bcp19]

the fact of the matter is that by conducting BTC-only tx's, HF is helping to advance the Bitcoin economy by increasing BTC velocity.

end of story.

No answer for the nth time.

I can only repeat that there's no BTC-only transactions here, the BTC gets sold for $$$ as soon as HashFast gets it.
HashFast has to sell this BTC on the open market, flooding the market with BTC.
More BTC for sale on the open market doesn't increase demand, so price has to fall if BTC to be sold.  
My BTC is worth less.
Your BTC is worth less.  Why?  Because we were forced to pay with BTC to a party that is *guaranteed to sell it on the market.*  Not hold.  Sell.

More BTC on the order books *needing to be sold* is a bad thing, Cypherdoc.

My neighbor, the cop, once told me: "People are confused about what we do.  We're not your friends and we're not here to help."  That also applies to people who ask you for money on the interwebz, Cypherdoc.  

1) If HashFast sells BTC for USD immediately, price will drop. 
2) If they sell for slightly less than others selling, price will ultimately drop. 
3) If they place a sell order larger than the smallest one price may remain same, decrease or increase. 

Most likely though it is #1

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[AsicShill]

The economics discussion with crumb has gotten boring.

We don't know what they do with the BTC.  Maybe they throw it all into a cold wallet incase they need to refund.  Maybe they buy hookers and blow with it and it stays in the "btc economy"... the fact is you don't know... and I don't know.

All of the Asic vendors take Bitcoin as well as fiat... Some of the more dramatic (ahem Avalon ahem) are Bitcoin only and they don't seem to have sold any on the open market; millions more than Hashfast is planning to get with their pre-order.  If you are really concerned about buying crap with bitcoin go complain to Yifu.

[vokain]

Oh yes.

Babyjets ship WITH psu's internally. Therefore more portable, stackable, presentable, etc.

Seeing as the multi-chip units got bought/are imminent, you're saying I can stack these babyjets without heating being an issue? Still trying to find space at least this means I don't have to break my lease by sneaking an electrician in the house to install special power lines.

[vokain]

If there is no difference between the two scenarios, why not let buyers cash out some coin, and buy with their CCs?  The buyers will be happier, while you admit that there is no difference from the BTC economic perspective.

*I can point out that by cashing out BTC, HashFast is not increasing the BTC velocity, it is increasing *the dollar velocity*, but i'm a nice guy

i just told you why; HF "wants" those BTC b/c either:

a.  they think they'll appreciate in value
b.  they think it's easier and more direct for the buyer instead of making them go thru an intermediate step of a cc company
c.  they want to avoid chargeback volatility so as to get a better idea of true demand for their product
d.  they want to help build the Bitcoin economy by encouraging BTC velocity thru the system

So why not have a fixed BTC price for their machines? My BTC is worth more now, though arguably my spot in line might be worth more as well

[vokain]

I'm convinced crumbs is here only to hopefully discredit cypherdoc because if cypherdoc eventually lets down and finally ignores crumbs, like any sane person with a life will do, crumbs will declare a victory over the whole matter, despite his multiple logical fallacies. I've been in arguments with these kinds of people before, it's stressful. Typically it's an ego thing, but even then they eventually let up if proven wrong enough times. For some reason crumbs isn't.. Can someone do a whois into this guy? Curious as to what his motivations are.

Btw: cypher already disclosed his motivation(s), so don't turn this around on him

[vokain]

Answer the question, a or b? ^^^

bwahahahaha!

it doesn't matter what the price on gox does if they put up the BTC for sale.  there's no way to predict what will happen short term.

furthermore, you seem to not to be able to wrap your crumb brain around the fact that by transacting in BTC, HF does indeed help the Bitcoin economy.  

I offer you a rudimentary supply and demand question.  
You do not answer it, insulting me instead.
I remind you to answer my question, get no answer and another insult in reply.
This has been your hallmark throughout this thread -- stubborn avoidance of inconvenient topics and escalating insults.  
Enjoy your endorsement thread.

Supply and demand is irrelevant for what cypher has been trying to get through your head.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect
BTC sell on gox=distribution=more hands
More hands=greater valuation
More coins for sale from Hashfast  doesn't mean bitcoin valuation will go down, in fact, the very opposite in the long run. But price may still go down short term as selling pressure temporarily increases

Price=!valuation of economy

^I'd say everything that comprises bitcoin right now is much more than 1B, ie the Network. Market cap (ie shares*$spot) does not equal valuation.

For one, you cannot sell 11.5M bitcoins for $1B at market.  Slippage. Same thing with buying $1B. You can't just raise the price 100% doing that, the price would be much much higher. Might be more cost effective to buy a mining monopoly instead.

To add, because buying and selling BTC on an exchange for fiat isn't what gives bitcoins their value and worth, but the buying and selling of goods for bitcoin IS (along with unseizability, transportability, etc properties), cypherdoc beat your argument based on falty presumptions.  End of that idiotic argument. Over.

[AussieHash]

Even more idiotic about this exchange. HF accept bank deposits. I paid with an international transfer.

[HashFast]

Hi Everyone,

We launched a blog today:
HashFast.com/blog

[crumbs]

the fact of the matter is that by conducting BTC-only tx's, HF is helping to advance the Bitcoin economy by increasing BTC velocity.

end of story.

No answer for the nth time.

I can only repeat that there's no BTC-only transactions here, the BTC gets sold for $$$ as soon as HashFast gets it.
HashFast has to sell this BTC on the open market, flooding the market with BTC.
More BTC for sale on the open market doesn't increase demand, so price has to fall if BTC to be sold.  
My BTC is worth less.
Your BTC is worth less.  Why?  Because we were forced to pay with BTC to a party that is *guaranteed to sell it on the market.*  Not hold.  Sell.

More BTC on the order books *needing to be sold* is a bad thing, Cypherdoc.

My neighbor, the cop, once told me: "People are confused about what we do.  We're not your friends and we're not here to help."  That also applies to people who ask you for money on the interwebz, Cypherdoc.  

that's idiotic.

i could just as easily point to all those ppl who had to scramble to buy BTC prior to buy the BJ's.  

and i could just like you come to the ludicrous conclusion that price could only go up as a result.  

I'm afraid you'd be dead-wrong.  Assuming the same amount of BTC is bought & sold leaves us exactly where we started.  Learn to math

i could only be dead wrong if you were wrong also.

so it sounds like you agree with me, the same amount of BTC is bought & sold therefore the net effect is zero.  which is what i was arguing all along.  the effects on the exchange rate is irrelevant.

not BAD like you're arguing.

Cypherdoc, don't forget that you claimed that HashFast is *GOOD* for the bitcoin economy.  Now you're claiming it's neutral, even in the best case scenario where the buyers are forced to buy BTC before placing a pre-order

[SirWizz]

^ ROI is meaningless without a time frame. I mean, take the crappiest hardware and you might get a ROI if you mine until the end of time because you might find a block eventually...

[Ytterbium]

^ ROI is meaningless without a time frame. I mean, take the crappiest hardware and you might get a ROI if you mine until the end of time because you might find a block eventually...

Eventually the block reward will go to zero. (Although there will be TX fees, hopefully.)

[cypherdoc]

the fact of the matter is that by conducting BTC-only tx's, HF is helping to advance the Bitcoin economy by increasing BTC velocity.

end of story.

No answer for the nth time.

I can only repeat that there's no BTC-only transactions here, the BTC gets sold for $$$ as soon as HashFast gets it.
HashFast has to sell this BTC on the open market, flooding the market with BTC.
More BTC for sale on the open market doesn't increase demand, so price has to fall if BTC to be sold.  
My BTC is worth less.
Your BTC is worth less.  Why?  Because we were forced to pay with BTC to a party that is *guaranteed to sell it on the market.*  Not hold.  Sell.

More BTC on the order books *needing to be sold* is a bad thing, Cypherdoc.

My neighbor, the cop, once told me: "People are confused about what we do.  We're not your friends and we're not here to help."  That also applies to people who ask you for money on the interwebz, Cypherdoc.  

that's idiotic.

i could just as easily point to all those ppl who had to scramble to buy BTC prior to buy the BJ's.  

and i could just like you come to the ludicrous conclusion that price could only go up as a result.  

I'm afraid you'd be dead-wrong.  Assuming the same amount of BTC is bought & sold leaves us exactly where we started.  Learn to math

i could only be dead wrong if you were wrong also.

so it sounds like you agree with me, the same amount of BTC is bought & sold therefore the net effect is zero.  which is what i was arguing all along.  the effects on the exchange rate is irrelevant.

not BAD like you're arguing.

Cypherdoc, don't forget that you claimed that HashFast is *GOOD* for the bitcoin economy.  Now you're claiming it's neutral, even in the best case scenario where the buyers are forced to buy BTC before placing a pre-order

you can't read.  you keep misrepresenting what i've said over and over. 

you keep focusing on a very thin slice of the entire process which in the whole scheme of things is irrelevant.  you're focusing just on the fact that you think that selling of BTC by HF is negative to the entire Bitcoin economy.  i've said that's ridiculous, it doesn't effect the economy at all in the greater picture.  and it's b/c their are willing buyers on the other side of the tx.

what is positive to the Bitcoin economy on many fronts is that they're facilitating the flow of BTC, aka, monetary velocity.  this benefits the buyers who get to use their hoarded BTC's to buy something useful, it allows the birthing of a new asic mining company, AND it benefits the existing miners who get tx fees, and it benefits the exchanges like BitPay who also get tx fees.

[crumbs]

...
Cypherdoc, don't forget that you claimed that HashFast is *GOOD* for the bitcoin economy.  Now you're claiming it's neutral, even in the best case scenario where the buyers are forced to buy BTC before placing a pre-order

you can't read.  you keep misrepresenting what i've said over and over.  

you keep focusing on a very thin slice of the entire process which in the whole scheme of things is irrelevant.  you're focusing just on the fact that you think that selling of BTC by HF is negative to the entire Bitcoin economy.  i've said that's ridiculous, it doesn't effect the economy at all in the greater picture.  and it's b/c their are willing buyers on the other side of the tx.

what is positive to the Bitcoin economy on many fronts is that they're facilitating the flow of BTC, aka, monetary velocity.  this benefits the buyers who get to use their hoarded BTC's to buy something useful, it allows the birthing of a new asic mining company, AND it benefits the existing miners who get tx fees, and it benefits the exchanges like BitPay who also get tx fees.

I'll just quote myself, i'm not going to revisit the same crap over & over.  Watch the boldface font:

Cyperdoc, i'm beginning to feel guilty for assuming malice on your part -- you obviously think that money velocity is increased by simply exchanging one currency for another, as many times as needed.
Let me help you:
If you think that cashing out BTC into dollars increases BTC velocity, or that *buying BTC with dollars* increases BTC velocity, do this:

1.  Buy BTC with dollars from yourself, then sell it to yourself for the same amount.
2.  You're an honest guy, you probably won't cheat yourself, so your risks are minimal.
3.  ? ? ?
4.  Velocity!!!

Let me repeat:  Transactions where BTC are exchanged into dollars do not increase BRC velocity.  I assumed we were past that.  If you feel that they do, state so now.  I'll show that you're dead-wrong again, and move on.  

Do BTC->$$$ transactions increase BTC velocity?  Simple yes or no, and we're done.  Like pulling a tooth, Cypherdoc, why drag it out?

As far as me being instrumental "birthing a new ASIC company," i would rather drink from the dick of a goat.  ASICs are inevitable, as is death.  I'm not interested in helping to bring about either.  If you enjoy funding companies that make our gear obsolete & bring about bitcoin centralization, go ahead, just don't pretend that it's for the good of bitcoin.

[Bitcoinorama]

the fact of the matter is that by conducting BTC-only tx's, HF is helping to advance the Bitcoin economy by increasing BTC velocity.

end of story.

No answer for the nth time.

I can only repeat that there's no BTC-only transactions here, the BTC gets sold for $$$ as soon as HashFast gets it.
HashFast has to sell this BTC on the open market, flooding the market with BTC.
More BTC for sale on the open market doesn't increase demand, so price has to fall if BTC to be sold.  
My BTC is worth less.
Your BTC is worth less.  Why?  Because we were forced to pay with BTC to a party that is *guaranteed to sell it on the market.*  Not hold.  Sell.

More BTC on the order books *needing to be sold* is a bad thing, Cypherdoc.

My neighbor, the cop, once told me: "People are confused about what we do.  We're not your friends and we're not here to help."  That also applies to people who ask you for money on the interwebz, Cypherdoc.  

that's idiotic.

i could just as easily point to all those ppl who had to scramble to buy BTC prior to buy the BJ's.  

and i could just like you come to the ludicrous conclusion that price could only go up as a result.  

I'm afraid you'd be dead-wrong.  Assuming the same amount of BTC is bought & sold leaves us exactly where we started.  Learn to math

i could only be dead wrong if you were wrong also.

so it sounds like you agree with me, the same amount of BTC is bought & sold therefore the net effect is zero.  which is what i was arguing all along.  the effects on the exchange rate is irrelevant.

not BAD like you're arguing.

Cypherdoc, don't forget that you claimed that HashFast is *GOOD* for the bitcoin economy.  Now you're claiming it's neutral, even in the best case scenario where the buyers are forced to buy BTC before placing a pre-order

you can't read.  you keep misrepresenting what i've said over and over.  

you keep focusing on a very thin slice of the entire process which in the whole scheme of things is irrelevant.  you're focusing just on the fact that you think that selling of BTC by HF is negative to the entire Bitcoin economy.  i've said that's ridiculous, it doesn't effect the economy at all in the greater picture.  and it's b/c their are willing buyers on the other side of the tx.

what is positive to the Bitcoin economy on many fronts is that they're facilitating the flow of BTC, aka, monetary velocity.  this benefits the buyers who get to use their hoarded BTC's to buy something useful, it allows the birthing of a new asic mining company, AND it benefits the existing miners who get tx fees, and it benefits the exchanges like BitPay who also get tx fees.

No, what he's saying is that it makes no difference to the health of Bitcoin whether Hashfast accept Payment in BTC, or fiat, as Hashfast's suppliers currently only accept dollars, and will want payment in dollars, which requires all their payments to be converted by facilities such as Bitpay. This does not support Bitcoin.

If however Hashfast convinced their suppliers to accept payment in Bitcoin, this keeping the chosen currency payment one of a closed loop, that would both be impressive, and beneficial for Bitcoin, as it subsequently increases Bitcoins awareness, and acceptance, and most importantly treats it as a currency for payment, and not merely just a vehicle of currency exchange. This supports Bitcoin.

Alas, the only reason Bitcoin is being accepted as the preferred payment is to mitigate liability upon recourse. In essense they have a free ride with investors monies, whilst assuming minimal accountability. Ultimately if Hashfast were to fail by a catastrophic miss of proposed profitable time period, they would clearly not be able to refund all, as pre-order monies will have been spent on vast non-reoccurring engineering costs, without a third party to accept liability for ensuring enough funds exist for refunding customers.

Of course this is unless Hashfast have secured a third party to insure them over such potential eventualities that mimic other secured payment choices, and protect their customers from reckless behaviour. Have they?

[cypherdoc]

Let me repeat:  Transactions where BTC are exchanged into dollars do not increase BRC vlocity.  I assumed we were past that.  If you feel that they do, state so now so i can show that you're dead-wrong again, and move on.  
Do BTC->$$$ transactions increase BTC velocity?  Simple yes or no, and we're done.  Like pulling a tooth, Cypherdoc, why drag it out?

Yes, selling BTC for USD is, in fact, increasing BTC velocity.  the BTC is exchanging hands and moving thru the Bitcoin economy as a result.

You clearly don't have the capacity to understand what i've been saying ad nauseum.  for HF to sell those BTC for USD, there has to be a willing buyer on the other end of that tx who "wants" those BTC and is more than willing to part with their USD.

in fact, they're willing to pay a premium for them as evidenced by the rising price.

[cypherdoc]

Ultimately if Hashfast were to fail by a catastrophic miss of proposed profitable time period they would clearly not be able to refund all, as pre-order monies will have been spent on vast non-reoccurring engineering costs, without a third party to accept liability for ensuring enough funds exist for refunding customers.

Of course this is unless Hashfast have secured a third party to insure them over such potential eventualities that mimic other secured payment choices and protect their customers from reckless behaviour. Have they?

this brings up an interesting point that applies to all of these companies.

you seem to have been arguing from the beginning that cc/pp are acting as some sort of insurance company that will take responsibility for providing FULL refunds if KNC scams everyone and takes off with their money.  nothing is further from the truth.  if KNC is able to get away with everyone's money and removes it from their bank accounts, the cc/pp companies have nowhere to go to retrieve those monies.

you'll be left with a loss.

[Bitcoinorama]

Ultimately if Hashfast were to fail by a catastrophic miss of proposed profitable time period they would clearly not be able to refund all, as pre-order monies will have been spent on vast non-reoccurring engineering costs, without a third party to accept liability for ensuring enough funds exist for refunding customers.

Of course this is unless Hashfast have secured a third party to insure them over such potential eventualities that mimic other secured payment choices and protect their customers from reckless behaviour. Have they?

this brings up an interesting point that applies to all of these companies.

you seem to have been arguing from the beginning that cc/pp are acting as some sort of insurance company that will take responsibility for providing FULL refunds if KNC scams everyone and takes off with their money.  nothing is further from the truth.  if KNC is able to get away with everyone's money and removes it from their bank accounts, the cc/pp companies have nowhere to go to retrieve those monies.

you'll be left with a loss.

Nope, that depends on where your located and the type of cover offered by a cc's respective issuing bank.

Certainly for customers in the UK that is not the case. It's why I've been so vocal on this;

"Once insolvency proceedings begin, all customers owed goods are known as unsecured creditors, but unfortunately the majority of cases end with no payments made to them," she says. "The money received from the sale of assets is used to pay the court costs and the creditors that hold security over the assets of the company, such as the banks. But each company is different and the outcome will depend entirely on the circumstances."

Bayne urges all customers of bankrupt companies to contact Companies House to find out the identity of the administrator or liquidator and register your claim with them. "You will be given information about any assets that the company has got, and whether or not you will be paid," she says.

Getting your money back can be difficult. However, if you bought your goods with your credit card, you could be entitled to additional protection. Any goods that cost between £100 and £30,000 are covered under section 75 of the 1974 Consumer Credit Act, which says the credit card company is just as liable to rectify any problem as is a supplier.
 
A similar scheme also exists with some Visa debit cards. Jemma Smith, spokesperson for the UK payment’s association APACs, explains: "This scheme is available on some of the Visa group’s debit cards if goods are damaged, don’t arrive, or if the company goes under."

You must make your claim within 120 days of the transaction. Each application is assessed separately and, although the scheme is not enshrined in law, the Financial Ombudsman Service has deemed it an example of good practice, and it is widely accepted in the banking industry.

However, Frank Shepherd, a spokesperson for Consumer Direct, warns that the Visa chargeback scheme does not apply to all Visa debit cards. "Read the terms and conditions of your card carefully, as there’s no guarantee you will be offered this protection," he warns. Shepherd also says that Switch or Maestro cards do not offer any protection.

http://www.moneywise.co.uk/scams-rip-offs/scams/how-to-deal-bankrupt-firm

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/how-can-i-get-my-money-back-if-a-company-goes-bust/

[crumbs]

Let me repeat:  Transactions where BTC are exchanged into dollars do not increase BRC vlocity.  I assumed we were past that.  If you feel that they do, state so now so i can show that you're dead-wrong again, and move on.  
Do BTC->$$$ transactions increase BTC velocity?  Simple yes or no, and we're done.  Like pulling a tooth, Cypherdoc, why drag it out?

Yes, selling BTC for USD is, in fact, increasing BTC velocity.  the BTC is exchanging hands and moving thru the Bitcoin economy as a result.

Wrong.  Here's a wikip quote for you, you like those:
"The velocity of money ... is the average frequency with which a unit of money is spent on new goods and services produced domestically in a specific period of time."

Note the red, emboldened text above.  BTC is not being spent on goods or services.  It is being converted into dollars, which are neither goods nor services.  
The above definition is oversimple, but it is specific enough to point out that it's not a just "changing of hands" that needs to take place.
Also, note the presence of the word "domestic."  Why do you suppose it was introduced into such a rudimentary definition?  I'm not going to lecture you in economics, suffice it to say that exchanging one kind of money for another kind of money does not increase the velocity of *anything,* dollars or BTC.

You clearly don't have the capacity to understand what i've been saying ad nauseum.  for HF to sell those BTC for USD, there has to be a willing buyer on the other end of that tx who "wants" those BTC and is more than willing to part with their USD.

You're right, there has to be a willing buyer.  Simply because more BTC appeared on an exchange (HashFast selling our BTC) *does not mean that there will be more people looking to buy BTC.*  The number of buyers stays the same, there's a greater supply of BTC, what happens to the price, do you suppose?  Must we go over this again & again?
 ...

[vokain]

Cypher, if you have time, can you please get to my two questions at the bottom of the 20th page?

[cypherdoc]

Let me repeat:  Transactions where BTC are exchanged into dollars do not increase BRC vlocity.  I assumed we were past that.  If you feel that they do, state so now so i can show that you're dead-wrong again, and move on.  
Do BTC->$$$ transactions increase BTC velocity?  Simple yes or no, and we're done.  Like pulling a tooth, Cypherdoc, why drag it out?

Yes, selling BTC for USD is, in fact, increasing BTC velocity.  the BTC is exchanging hands and moving thru the Bitcoin economy as a result.

Wrong.  Here's a wikip quote for you, you like those:
"The velocity of money ... is the average frequency with which a unit of money is spent on new goods and services produced domestically in a specific period of time."

Note the red, emboldened text above.  BTC is not being spent on goods or services.  It is being converted into dollars, which are neither goods nor services.  
The above definition is oversimple, but it is specific enough to point out that it's not a just "changing of hands" that needs to take place.
Also, note the presence of the word "domestic."  Why do you suppose it was introduced into such a rudimentary definition?  I'm not going to lecture you in economics, suffice it to say that exchanging one kind of money for another kind of money does not increase the velocity of *anything,* dollars or BTC.

You clearly don't have the capacity to understand what i've been saying ad nauseum.  for HF to sell those BTC for USD, there has to be a willing buyer on the other end of that tx who "wants" those BTC and is more than willing to part with their USD.

You're right, there has to be a willing buyer.  Simply because more BTC appeared on an exchange (HashFast selling our BTC) *does not mean that there will be more people looking to buy BTC.*  The number of buyers stays the same, there's a greater supply of BTC, what happens to the price, do you suppose?  Must we go over this again & again?
 ...

the problem with what you're saying is that you're thinking of BTC as purely a form of currency.  many of us already know that the definition of what BTC is differs.  many think of BTC itself as a "good" or "asset".  they don't view it purely as a means of transacting.  they view it as an investment with the potential to grow in value and act as a store of value.

speculation on the value of BTC itself has played a big role in building the Bitcoin economy.  it's a well known fact that the faster it changes hands and circulates, the better it is and will be for the Bitcoin economy as it provides fees for the miners/exchangers and it increases it perception of utility.

you making the statement that the price will definitely go down by selling them on an exchange is ridiculous.  i happen to know that is false.  you have no way to predict what demand will be when HF does this.  there are plenty of hidden buyers waiting in the wings who want to buy a big chunk of BTC when it becomes available on the market.  no one knows they're there, especially you.