► ► ►HashFast Endorsement

[cypherdoc]

If they are so sure of themselves then send me unit and I will pay in BTC when it is hashing. 

Why would ANYONE do that.  If someone has a unit which is currently hashing why not just keep using it themselves rather than sell it to you?  I am not saying you should buy one but thinking that someone will produce a unit, which is operational, and profitable and then turn it off just so they can send it to you and collect some BTC after the fact?  Would you?

It depends on the price.  If you expect 10 x ROI then of course not.  If you sell them for some small operating margin then yes.  It is not unusual at all for business-to-business transactions to be done via purchase order due in 30 days.  The point is that I am not going to order any bitcoin miners with non-refundable bitcoins given all the problems that have occurred.  You are never going to make large profits with Bitcoin miners because companies will sell them for close to the amount they will mine.  Therefore, it is not worth the risk of sending non-refundable payments (bitcoins, wire payments, etc.).  It is credit cards or the new system I call "pre-delivery."   It makes more sense to day trade then take these pre-order risks with non-refundable payments.

IMO, taking cc payments create huge risks for asic developers.  take me for example.  like i said above, i cx'd 3 jupiter orders; AND 8 Bitfury boards.  now, a company that sees all that money flow in initially gets all excited and says "we're gonna be rich" and starts cranking up the supply chains.  well, along comes a HashFast with way better specs and "poof" either you deliver on all the refund requests or you refuse and get a chargeback. 

what Hashfast is asking is for only 4.5 mo of your time to lock up your money.  they've "told" me they are going to offer refunds if they fail to deliver by the end of year.  actually, i've seen the write up on this plan.  i expect them to deliver on that promise.  if i get any hint they are going to renege on this i will be the first to let all of you know.

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[Ytterbium]

This thread is a joke.

tldr: I've been paid to say these people are legitimate, so they're legitimate.

actually, it's the other way around.

You paid them?

[reactor]

If they are so sure of themselves then send me unit and I will pay in BTC when it is hashing. 

Why would ANYONE do that.  If someone has a unit which is currently hashing why not just keep using it themselves rather than sell it to you?  I am not saying you should buy one but thinking that someone will produce a unit, which is operational, and profitable and then turn it off just so they can send it to you and collect some BTC after the fact?  Would you?

It depends on the price.  If you expect 10 x ROI then of course not.  If you sell them for some small operating margin then yes.  It is not unusual at all for business-to-business transactions to be done via purchase order due in 30 days.  The point is that I am not going to order any bitcoin miners with non-refundable bitcoins given all the problems that have occurred.  You are never going to make large profits with Bitcoin miners because companies will sell them for close to the amount they will mine.  Therefore, it is not worth the risk of sending non-refundable payments (bitcoins, wire payments, etc.).  It is credit cards or the new system I call "pre-delivery."   It makes more sense to day trade then take these pre-order risks with non-refundable payments.

IMO, taking cc payments create huge risks for asic developers.  take me for example.  like i said above, i cx'd 3 jupiter orders; AND 8 Bitfury boards.  now, a company that sees all that money flow in initially gets all excited and says "we're gonna be rich" and starts cranking up the supply chains.  well, along comes a HashFast with way better specs and "poof" either you deliver on all the refund requests or you refuse and get a chargeback. 

what Hashfast is asking is for only 4.5 mo of your time to lock up your money.  they've "told" me they are going to offer refunds if they fail to deliver by the end of year.  actually, i've seen the write up on this plan.  i expect them to deliver on that promise.  if i get any hint they are going to renege on this i will be the first to let all of you know.

The longer this thread gets the less I believe... 

[cypherdoc]

This thread is a joke.

tldr: I've been paid to say these people are legitimate, so they're legitimate.

actually, it's the other way around.

You paid them?

no.  i made a determination that they are legitimate.  once they figured out i was a supporter, was going to buy machines and who i was, they offered to make me a paid sponsor.  sorta like how Lebron James sponsors Coke    i guess he drinks it, right?

i have no problems supporting causes i truly believe in.

[Loredo]

REF-A: i've been saying for months now that ASIC mining companies will NOT result in centralization of the network. 

REF_B: the competition is so intense to sell these chips and rigs that a company CANNOT AFFORD to ignore the small mining segment.  just look at the price of the BabyJet.  $5600? 

In re REF-A:  I hope that you are right.  I don't see how it cannot;  Just this week, there are several IPO  structured offerings with network-presence-level strategies.  Either through direct investment, participation joint/venture, or otherwise, these entities will be able to command USD cost per TH that the independents can't hope to attain.  And we know that, in spite of the broad benefiical "ownership," the direct network participation is centralized, and we know the risks there.

In re REF-B: I haven't looked at the offering, but I glean here that it's 400-500 GHps at the end of October- for 56 BTC paid today.  I don't know, in absolute terms, even ex-ante, how good a deal that is.  It certainly is, in relative terms, a good deal.  

But that may just be saying that your's is the first proposed offering that isn't extracting the monopolist's rent that the market, starving for hash power, was willing to pay to each successive group that would dangle the promise.

[Ytterbium]

This made me laugh.

Translation: "Give me your money making machine. Once I get it setup and hashing to make me money ...then I will give you money."

It isn't that they need to be sure of themselves. You need to be sure of your tolerance for risk. Any investment has risk. You just have to determine your risk tolerance. Obviously you dont fit this risk model.

In order to have high risk you need high reward.  Given the future diff rate, it's not clear there's actually going to be a high reward here. Batch 1 Avalons cost $1200 when they started taking pre-orders. Batch 2 was $1500, and the difficulty was around 3.2 million.

Relative to the difficulty, this thing is about 7x as expensive as a B2 Avalon.

And I expect Hashrate to go up even more quickly through the last part of this year then the first half.

no.  i made a determination that they are legitimate.  once they figured out i was a supporter, was going to buy machines and who i was, they offered to make me a paid sponsor.  sorta like how Lebron James sponsors Coke    i guess he drinks it, right?

i have no problems supporting causes i truly believe in.

Uh, no, coke is a sponsor of LeBron James, not the other way around.

[Kouye]

Howdy Endorser!

I have a couple questions there, care to reply, please ?

[SirWizz]

along comes a HashFast with way better specs and "poof" either you deliver on all the refund requests or you refuse and get a chargeback. 

What are these "way better specs" you are talking about? This is not the first 400 GH/s machine and Cointerra is even promising 500+ GH/s. They have lower power consumption if we are to believe them and a 20% discount over a similar unit from KNC but it'll probably be at least a month late compared to KNC/Bitfury and we all know if those guys deliver the jump in difficulty will not be 20% but closer to 200%.

[cypherdoc]

But that may just be saying that your's is the first proposed offering that isn't extracting the monopolist's rent that the market, starving for hash power, was willing to pay to each successive group that would dangle the promise.

you're right.  i don't think the HashFast ppl are greedy.  seriously.  they're more Bitcoin purists.  of course, i'm sure they want to make money.  but one of the things that attracted me to them is that they look at Bitcoin like i do; a way to change the monetary system.  and if one believes that, they then associate themselves with like minded ppl.   then you'll act in a way that attempts to achieve that goal.

[cypherdoc]

along comes a HashFast with way better specs and "poof" either you deliver on all the refund requests or you refuse and get a chargeback. 

What are these "way better specs" you are talking about? This is not the first 400 GH/s machine and Cointerra is even promising 500+ GH/s. They have lower power consumption if we are to believe them and a 20% discount over a similar unit from KNC but it'll probably be at least a month late compared to KNC/Bitfury and we all know if those guys deliver the jump in difficulty will not be 20% but closer to 200%.

i'll defer those specifics to the company itself since i'm not an employee or representative. 

[Loredo]

This thread is a joke.

IMHO, this thread provided a lot of good information.  There was no bullshit shilling, it was straight up, and it was largely unscripted by the marketing boys. 

For me, it was a pleasure to read it.

[cypherdoc]

This thread is a joke.

IMHO, this thread provided a lot of good information.  There was no bullshit shilling, it was straight up, and it was largely unscripted by the marketing boys. 

For me, it was a pleasure to read it.

thanks man.  i appreciate it.

[Kouye]

thanks man.  i appreciate it.

Probably more than my questions, I guess

[cypherdoc]

thanks man.  i appreciate it.

Probably more than my questions, I guess

Kouye, you should ask John Skrodenis your questions.  i can only go so far as i am not a rep or employee.

[Ytterbium]

i've been saying for months now that ASIC mining companies will NOT result in centralization of the network.  look around you.  the competition is so intense to sell these chips and rigs that a company CANNOT AFFORD to ignore the small mining segment.  just look at the price of the BabyJet.  $5600?  are you kidding me?  that is very cheap compared to what we've seen.  and most likely the prices will be driven down more over time.  the real question is when to get in.

I don't know if the price is actually all that good.  As I pointed out elsewhere, it's about 7x as expensive as a B2 Avalon relative to the current difficulty.

When KnC started taking orders, you also didn't have the constellation of other ASIC vendors all planning to dump their hashrate at the same time.

Doesn't mean it's a bad deal in the long run. We'll have to see.

[Kouye]

Kouye, you should ask John Skrodenis your questions.  i can only go so far as i am not a rep or employee.

I did, twice, already. Also asked Simon. You're the only one who answered, so far, thank you!

[miter_myles]

Cute coordination / tag team endorsement / open pre-order play... creative..

[cypherdoc]

Kouye, you should ask John Skrodenis your questions.  i can only go so far as i am not a rep or employee.

I did, twice, already. Also asked Simon. You're the only one who answered, so far, thank you!

if you read my comments above i think those cover the gist of what you should really be concerned about.  i've been told up, down, left and right that this is what they will promise.  i've even seen it written out in internal docs.  but whether or not they'll have the money to do a refund if the end of year rolls around is the risk you take.

i've taken the risk. i've bought 8 units myself.

[cypherdoc]

actually i just thought of something.  duh.

that Icedrill/Digimex contract must be worth $millions.  i'm sure HashFast got a big chunk of cash upfront for that order. 

now what is the chance that they'll fail given that?

[SirWizz]

actually i just thought of something.  duh.

that Icedrill/Digimex contract must be worth $millions.  i'm sure HashFast got a big chunk of cash upfront for that order. 

now what is the chance that they'll fail given that?

Depends on how you define failure, delivering late could be almost as bad as not delivering. Also, those guys need to meet their funding targets first in order to pay HashFast.