[CENSORSHIP] Matthew N. Wright

[qwk]

It isn't your account, it belongs to the forum/website. You're allowed to use it once you agree to the user agreement you skipped over when you registered your account, you can put a unique name on it, you can make a password to restrict access, but in the end it still belongs to the website. Same applies to say...online game accounts (not necessarily paid before you think of world of warcraft or something, free games are the same), you don't own them either and you can be banned from accessing them at any time.

There are more than "property rights" to consider when it comes to the ownership of forum accounts. Your legal view is very incomplete, even though it is completely in line with the common practice of most community providers.

One thing that most people forget about is the amount of copyrighted content a forum user usually creates. For example, as far as I know, under U.S. law this content may legally become the exclusive property of the forum / forum owners. In most countries in Europe for example, this is practically impossible. Which could make it illegal for the forum provider to delete or modify that content without the consent of the user. It is also practically impossible to request this consent in advance in some kind of EULA before the user actually is able to produce said content.  Also, don't make the mistake that for a U.S. based forum, only U.S. law applies. All in all, complicated stuff, really.
All I'm saying is, don't be too sure about the common practice of forum websites to actually be legal.

And now back on topic:
It's still all about MNW being a troll, which is a fact.
It's about the forum being practically theymos' playground, which is also a fact.
Discuss as we may, all we can do is speak up for MNW, which I personally do, in a very moderate way.

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[danieldaniel]

@ Badbear,

Regardless of what Theymos is entitled to do or not do, I can tell you that my suspicion has increased, and trust decreased, with regards to Theymos as a result of inconsistent moderation, claims that he is protecting scammers, and his avoidance of this thread.  I bet I'm not the only one.

Inconsistent moderation will be caught and scrutinized by others. If enough people are unhappy about it, it's just going to make your job and Thymos's job a lot more annoying.  It also makes this site a target among those that are inconsistently moderated, even if a ban just means they'll create 10 sock puppet  accounts just to troll you harder.  

I agree with this.  Theymos has the right to do whatever he wants with this forum, however: That doesn't mean he *should*.

He can do it, it just makes me respect him a lot less.

[farlack]

Do whats best for us? We didn't vote them in based off of their opinion of how the forum should be ran, who other than the people are to say what is best for us? Whats best for us is what WE say.
Trolling isn't that bad, I have a shaky memory, but didn't theymos try to sell off what was it $500,000 worth of shares of a scam business right before they were caught..?

Edit:Edit badmaths: $78k back then, 551k today.

There is no voting, this isn't a democracy. Banning someone from a private website isn't censorship, that's ridiculous and shows you don't truly understand what censorship and freedom of speech mean. It's a privately owned forum, and theymos is exercising his right as property owner/administrator to manage as he sees fit. If you disagree, you are free to leave. You are not free to try and take the property owner's rights away on a whim just because you disagree with something he did. 

Actually I'm just going to stop here and quote DeathandTaxes here, he said it perfectly. Edit: Actually you were a part of this conversation about another troll who was banned, I guess you just like infringing on the rights of others whenever you disagree with them. Nice, you should get a job in government work. 

Property doesn't only apply to physical property.    You have no freedom of speech as it relates to other citizens and their private property.   No forum can violate your freedom of speech because ...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Who can't abridge the freedom of speech?  That's right Congress can't.  Last time I checked the mods on this forum aren't Congress, aren't duly elected or appointed officials of any state.  They aren't even the agents of the state. 

Rights start with ownership.  The forum is OWNED by its owners.  Those owners use admins and mods to (as they see fit) to maximize the value of their property.  Property they own and have every right to control.  There is no difference between kicking a hunter off your land and kicking a person off a forum.  Both involve lawfully controlling one's property.

You don't need a freedom of Speech from other citizens you know why?
1) Other citizens don't have a monopoly on violence.  Other citizens can't under the law use force to silence your speech. 
2) Sure maybe you can't speak on this forum without rules (much like you can't hunt on anyone's private property without permission) but until bitcointalk.org becomes the sole mechanism of speech for the human race you have other options. 

TL/DR:
I hate "rights" hypocrits.  I bet even now you fail to see that your demands of freedom of speech are a violation of the rights of others ... the rights of property owners to be free in the ownership of what is theirs.

Bolded the important part, that's why banning someone isn't censorship. I don't know how much more simpler it can be made. The only valid point I've seen made is that there are others who should be banned, but that's hardly new. Unbanning Matthew doesn't seem like the best solution to that particular problem.

Lol what ever buddy, banning someone from a private website is censorship I guess you don't know what censorship is, here is the wiki definition
"Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body. It can be done by governments and private organizations or by individuals who engage in self-censorship. It occurs in a variety of different contexts including speech, books, music, films, and other arts, the press, radio, television, and the Internet for a variety of reasons including national security, to control obscenity, child pornography, and hate speech, to protect children, to promote or restrict political or religious views, and to prevent slander and libel. It may or may not be legal. Many countries provide strong protections against censorship by law, but none of these protections are absolute and it is frequently necessary to balance conflicting rights in order to determine what can and cannot be censored."

This site is supposed to be about freedom, and so far the only freedom here is for scammers.
Does theymos even own this site? Someone gave him admin rights and a next there was Coup?
Honestly trying to scam, and banning people for no reason, that's a shitty admin.

[jhansen858]

I just have to say.  I think its funny that Matthew N. Wright thinks its perfectly ok to censor other people, but when it happens to him its not fair.  The very first post of his I ever replied on, I disagreed with his position and he deleted my comments out.  I re-added them and he deleted them again.  I then had to start another post to get them seen.  It was clear he was trying to skew the conversation to his point of view. 

How does it taste MNW?  Get a taste of your own medicine. 

[Mike Christ]

The point is thus: if you don't like it, you can always leave, and create another forum where there is less censorship.  If enough people like that new forum, they'll flock to it.  Otherwise, they'll stay here.  I don't think this is nearly as big a deal as people are making it out to be.

This site is supposed to be about freedom, and so far the only freedom here is for scammers.
Does theymos even own this site? Someone gave him admin rights and a next there was Coup?
Honestly trying to scam, and banning people for no reason, that's a shitty admin.

You're mistaken; this site is supposed to be about Bitcoin.  Take my advice above, if you're so offended.

[zackclark70]

it is not true we can check out but we cant leave as we are not aloud to delete our accounts

It isn't your account, it belongs to the forum/website. You're allowed to use it once you agree to the user agreement you skipped over when you registered your account, you can put a unique name on it, you can make a password to restrict access, but in the end it still belongs to the website. Same applies to say...online game accounts (not necessarily paid before you think of world of warcraft or something, free games are the same), you don't own them either and you can be banned from accessing them at any time.

Again, I'm speaking strictly from a property rights point of view since that's the direction the discussion has taken, with the claims of censorship and violation of free speech. Just trying to get you to see the big picture here, beyond a sole account.

have you seen the amount of old accounts that are popping back up after all this time the accounts cant be phished cant be brute forced that only leaves to options forum compromised or admin are resetting passwords and using the themselves or selling them

( I know of at least 1 user that regally hacks the forum so I am sure there are more )

All I've seen from you is guesses and speculation, but if you have something helpful to share, please share it with the people that need it (not me).

I have been thinking about this post

As the account snaz31 belongs to this forum I am putting in a request that the 3btc that was scammed from me to be returned to me at the following address > 1Fz9J1zduFYSzhmbKtEjVewNyugjKKnfec as you have admitted that the account belongs to you. You are legally obligated to refund me

Thanks

zack

[qwk]

It isn't your account, it belongs to the forum/website. You're allowed to use it once you agree to the user agreement you skipped over when you registered your account, you can put a unique name on it, you can make a password to restrict access, but in the end it still belongs to the website. Same applies to say...online game accounts (not necessarily paid before you think of world of warcraft or something, free games are the same), you don't own them either and you can be banned from accessing them at any time.

As the account snaz31 belongs to this forum I am putting in a request that the 3btc that was scammed from me to be returned to me at the following address > 1Fz9J1zduFYSzhmbKtEjVewNyugjKKnfec as you have admitted that the account belongs to you. You are legally obligated to refund me

Nice try, but BadBear is not the owner of the forum.
Also, just because something doesn't belong to you, the damage you do with it while you use it, is entirely your own business.

"oh, this isn't my appartment, the landlord's gotta pay his rent to himself, because it's his property after all"

[zackclark70]

It isn't your account, it belongs to the forum/website. You're allowed to use it once you agree to the user agreement you skipped over when you registered your account, you can put a unique name on it, you can make a password to restrict access, but in the end it still belongs to the website. Same applies to say...online game accounts (not necessarily paid before you think of world of warcraft or something, free games are the same), you don't own them either and you can be banned from accessing them at any time.

As the account snaz31 belongs to this forum I am putting in a request that the 3btc that was scammed from me to be returned to me at the following address > 1Fz9J1zduFYSzhmbKtEjVewNyugjKKnfec as you have admitted that the account belongs to you. You are legally obligated to refund me

Nice try, but BadBear is not the owner of the forum.
Also, just because something doesn't belong to you, the damage you do with it while you use it, is entirely your own business.

"oh, this isn't my appartment, the landlord's gotta pay his rent to himself, because it's his property after all"

looks like they just changed the t&c so it doesn't matter now

[J603]

The point is thus: if you don't like it, you can always leave, and create another forum where there is less censorship.  If enough people like that new forum, they'll flock to it.  Otherwise, they'll stay here.  I don't think this is nearly as big a deal as people are making it out to be.

This site is supposed to be about freedom, and so far the only freedom here is for scammers.
Does theymos even own this site? Someone gave him admin rights and a next there was Coup?
Honestly trying to scam, and banning people for no reason, that's a shitty admin.

You're mistaken; this site is supposed to be about Bitcoin.  Take my advice above, if you're so offended.

Just like people say create a new bitcoin foundation some things just can't be done that way. First off this is the official bitcoin discussion forum, and as a bitcoin user I am entitled to my opinion. As I have said before hundreds of times, bitcoin really means you only have one opinion and if you don't like it, then everyone turns on you. It is sad.

Also Theymos hasn't posted in this thread is he a scared? Cause we are right. Do VIP's really get special treatment? Yes look at all the trolls who are VIP's. This forum is corrupted!

Bitcoin is decentralized. There is no "official" bitcoin forum. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is nothing more than an opinion.

Complaining will do absolutely nothing unless Theymos has a change of heart, which I don't think he will.

[arsenische]

Complaining will do absolutely nothing unless Theymos has a change of heart, which I don't think he will.

I hope Bitcoin EU Convention 2013 (Amsterdam, Netherlands September 26th~28th) won't suffer from that since Matthew is Coordination Consultant and his activity on this forum could be an important contribution to this event.

Update: it already suffers since it is not so easy to find the correct link to its forum thread, and Matthew's threads are locked without a link to the correct one

[J603]

The point is thus: if you don't like it, you can always leave, and create another forum where there is less censorship.  If enough people like that new forum, they'll flock to it.  Otherwise, they'll stay here.  I don't think this is nearly as big a deal as people are making it out to be.

This site is supposed to be about freedom, and so far the only freedom here is for scammers.
Does theymos even own this site? Someone gave him admin rights and a next there was Coup?
Honestly trying to scam, and banning people for no reason, that's a shitty admin.

You're mistaken; this site is supposed to be about Bitcoin.  Take my advice above, if you're so offended.

Just like people say create a new bitcoin foundation some things just can't be done that way. First off this is the official bitcoin discussion forum, and as a bitcoin user I am entitled to my opinion. As I have said before hundreds of times, bitcoin really means you only have one opinion and if you don't like it, then everyone turns on you. It is sad.

Also Theymos hasn't posted in this thread is he a scared? Cause we are right. Do VIP's really get special treatment? Yes look at all the trolls who are VIP's. This forum is corrupted!

Bitcoin is decentralized. There is no "official" bitcoin forum. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is nothing more than an opinion.

Complaining will do absolutely nothing unless Theymos has a change of heart, which I don't think he will.

Bitcoin software is decentralized but other parts of it are very much centralized. This is the official bitcoin forum, their is no unofficial tag, Satoshi had the forum move from sourceforge to here.

How is this the "official" bitcoin forum? Theymos owns and runs it. He isn't Satoshi. Even if he was, Satoshi put bitcoins out there to be uncontrollable by anyone. Even if he changed his mind, he's just as much an owner as I am.

I could mine my own bitcoins, buy things with no 3rd party interference, and even run my own bitcoin forum. Nothing about bitcoin is centralized.

[QuestionAuthority]

Wow, you're all severely starved for entertainment. It takes 7 pages to discuss one person getting banned?

I personally followed PinkiePie daily and rushed home to the computer to see that days posts. I loved PinkiePie's sophisticated and complex trolling but didn't get all wet when the ban happened. Theymos can ban whoever he wants too. I hope you fuckin clowns understand we're all here at his sole discretion. Matthews "where's the new forum" crap and the picking with Theymos constantly was kind of getting old anyway. If this was my business I probably would have done the same thing except sooner.

@Theymos, If you let Matthew come back can you reinstate PinkiePie too? That's a pure double-whammy of entertainment. lol

[Viceroy]

Even a thirteen year old knows that censorship is bad:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280190


It's un-American!  

Besides anyone who doesn't like Matthew can just ignore him, that's the whole point right?  Or are we admitting by this action that the ignore feature doesn't work?  If it doesn't work it should be eliminated.  Eliminating the poster is cowardly.  

In America we don't fear people who use words, we converse with them.  I fear no conversation.  Censorship is pure evil and it makes Satoshi weep.  


Perhaps Theymos should step down and let someone else be in charge?  There are plenty of qualified admins who can take over the baton.  Step down Theymos, unless your ego won't let you, it's best for the community.

Other things that would be beneficial to the community include:
   A definition of the forum hierarchy and how decisions are made
   Open public discussions about policies and their implementation
   A posting that includes rules and ban policies
   A privacy policy and a COPPA policy

Hell let's put DiamondCardz in charge for a while.  At 13 he sees the evil of censorship, it's surprising that as a full grown adult the site admin does not.

This site is way too populated to allow this heavy handed arbitrary, non-published, seat of the pants decision making.  This is why, in the real world, we have rules and regulations.  Here in Theymos world it's just easier to hit the ban-hammer.

Oh what power we wield... it's gone to our head.  Theymos must think himself the king of the universe.

* Viceroy runs away from the arbitrary ban-hammer

* Viceroy turns to see the current count against the sites number one advertiser BFL
Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag?
Yes   - 772 (77.5%)
No   - 224 (22.5%)
Total Voters: 996
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155730.140

[jackjack]

It's un-American! 

Lol

[DiamondCardz]

Even a thirteen year old knows that censorship is bad:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280190


It's un-American!  

Besides anyone who doesn't like Matthew can just ignore him, that's the whole point right?  Or are we admitting by this action that the ignore feature doesn't work?  If it doesn't work it should be eliminated.  Eliminating the poster is cowardly.  

In America we don't fear people who use words, we converse with them.  I fear no conversation.  Censorship is pure evil and it makes Satoshi weep.  


Perhaps Theymos should step down and let someone else be in charge?  There are plenty of qualified admins who can take over the baton.  Step down Theymos, unless your ego won't let you, it's best for the community.

Other things that would be beneficial to the community include:
   A definition of the forum hierarchy and how decisions are made
   Open public discussions about policies and their implementation
   A posting that includes rules and ban policies
   A privacy policy and a COPPA policy

Hell let's put DiamondCardz in charge for a while.  At 13 he sees the evil of censorship, it's surprising that as a full grown adult the site admin does not.

This site is way too populated to allow this heavy handed arbitrary, non-published, seat of the pants decision making.  This is why, in the real world, we have rules and regulations.  Here in Theymos world it's just easier to hit the ban-hammer.

Oh what power we wield... it's gone to our head.  Theymos must think himself the king of the universe.

* Viceroy runs away from the arbitrary ban-hammer

* Viceroy turns to see the current count against the sites number one advertiser BFL
Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag?
Yes   - 772 (77.5%)
No   - 224 (22.5%)
Total Voters: 996
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155730.140

Yes, although I don't appreciate the "At 13" kind of stuff. I have a very high IQ compared to my peers, and I go to a selective school.  

In a decentralized and ideal community, age doesn't and shouldn't matter. Hell, if an 8 year old is mature enough to handle it, why shouldn't an 8 year old be a moderator or administrator (theoretically speaking here)?

However, I agree. Censorship isn't good, and it definitely doesn't belong in Bitcoin. You can't pull the "forums are centralized" arguments, because you can take action to make forums more decentralized.

Unban Matthew, theymos: it's the correct thing to do, rather than this complete mess.

[escrow.ms]

It's un-American! 

Lol

Same LOL

[DiamondCardz]

It's un-American!  

Lol

Same LOL

Lmao.

Theymos, I don't think you did yourself a favor here.
I am disappointed. And now, for the first time, considering moving on elsewhere.

Ente

Is there another place with active community?

Theymos should listen to the community. Community has donated a lot bitcoins to this forum, though I don't know are those coins used to pay salary to theymos or something.

There will be soon, it's pretty obvious.

If anything, the $600,000 is a lost cause, at this rate.

[Bitware]

it's getting tyrannical up in here.

[whiskers75]

Even a thirteen year old knows that censorship is bad:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280190


It's un-American!  

Besides anyone who doesn't like Matthew can just ignore him, that's the whole point right?  Or are we admitting by this action that the ignore feature doesn't work?  If it doesn't work it should be eliminated.  Eliminating the poster is cowardly.  

In America we don't fear people who use words, we converse with them.  I fear no conversation.  Censorship is pure evil and it makes Satoshi weep.  


Perhaps Theymos should step down and let someone else be in charge?  There are plenty of qualified admins who can take over the baton.  Step down Theymos, unless your ego won't let you, it's best for the community.

Other things that would be beneficial to the community include:
   A definition of the forum hierarchy and how decisions are made
   Open public discussions about policies and their implementation
   A posting that includes rules and ban policies
   A privacy policy and a COPPA policy

Hell let's put DiamondCardz in charge for a while.  At 13 he sees the evil of censorship, it's surprising that as a full grown adult the site admin does not.

This site is way too populated to allow this heavy handed arbitrary, non-published, seat of the pants decision making.  This is why, in the real world, we have rules and regulations.  Here in Theymos world it's just easier to hit the ban-hammer.

Oh what power we wield... it's gone to our head.  Theymos must think himself the king of the universe.

* Viceroy runs away from the arbitrary ban-hammer

* Viceroy turns to see the current count against the sites number one advertiser BFL
Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag?
Yes   - 772 (77.5%)
No   - 224 (22.5%)
Total Voters: 996
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155730.140

Yes, although I don't appreciate the "At 13" kind of stuff. I have a very high IQ compared to my peers, and I go to a selective school.  

In a decentralized and ideal community, age doesn't and shouldn't matter. Hell, if an 8 year old is mature enough to handle it, why shouldn't an 8 year old be a moderator or administrator (theoretically speaking here)?

However, I agree. Censorship isn't good, and it definitely doesn't belong in Bitcoin. You can't pull the "forums are centralized" arguments, because you can take action to make forums more decentralized.

Unban Matthew, theymos: it's the correct thing to do, rather than this complete mess.

This exactly.

Off topic: Go Diamond for admin!

[DiamondCardz]

People are getting fed up. There's been no real response to requests for MNW to be unbanned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am7eHyJ8_1Y

Time to start humming that as you read Bitcointalk. -.-