Money Is Political, Not Technical

[Naida_BR]

After the recent economic crisis that started in 2008 with the fall of Lehman Brothers I understood that money is a tool for politicians.
They use it in order to cover their own bad political decisions and manipulate the crowd's opinion. They don't care about the cases that they create with regulations and other decisions that affect the society.

This is the reason why fiat is a scam and why this bubble is going to blow in the next years with a more disastrous crisis than the latest one.

[jrrsparkles]

from the beginning it was like this, and corruption was always unavoidable because of the existence of money and the status of the ruler. I think crypto is time to be legalized.

Cryptocurrency will not lessen the corrupt people, they will find a way to get money as easy as possible. We are greed to money, let’s admit this one but its too sad that other people can’t control their emotion and do bad things to other people. We can always earn clean money if you want to, emotion is not a great excuse.

Most of the crypto currencies were not completely traceable,so if someone can find the address then we can traceout the money he is holding in illegal way but it will be harder to prove it.But when we have decentralization on payments everywhere then there is no need to bribe anyone because we can find transperency which has no way for people to cheat the system.

[coinluisa]

Ever since money is a political because many people are greedy it comes to money that's true right? Even you don't want but it comes to money people change. Like in cryptocurrency many are greedy even they don't want to happen but it happen because of money they will get.

[bitbunnny]

After the recent economic crisis that started in 2008 with the fall of Lehman Brothers I understood that money is a tool for politicians.
They use it in order to cover their own bad political decisions and manipulate the crowd's opinion. They don't care about the cases that they create with regulations and other decisions that affect the society.

This is the reason why fiat is a scam and why this bubble is going to blow in the next years with a more disastrous crisis than the latest one.

Money has always been and always will be connected with politics. As well as banks are always connected with governments. But maybe the worst thing is that everyone seams to get used to that. Crisis appear in regular cycles, obviously they can't be avoided anymore and the only question is how heavy they will strike. That is why cryptocurrencies need to offer some kind of alternative and solution.

[BeGoods]

from the beginning it was like this, and corruption was always unavoidable because of the existence of money and the status of the ruler. I think crypto is time to be legalized.

Cryptocurrency will not lessen the corrupt people, they will find a way to get money as easy as possible. We are greed to money, let’s admit this one but its too sad that other people can’t control their emotion and do bad things to other people. We can always earn clean money if you want to, emotion is not a great excuse.

Most of the crypto currencies were not completely traceable,so if someone can find the address then we can traceout the money he is holding in illegal way but it will be harder to prove it.But when we have decentralization on payments everywhere then there is no need to bribe anyone because we can find transperency which has no way for people to cheat the system.

You are right, because people will always find ways to do things that can keep them profitable even though it is illegal, in my opinion the repair is not the financial system itself, but the mental revolution of humans, we are greedy thats the fact..

[Pab]

There is famous quote from Red Revolution 1917 time
I think Trocki told that or maybe Dzierzynski
Money in hands of our enemy can be powerful weapon
Money in hands of our own people is powerful enemy
I think see that is kind of true in our modern world
Money distribution and  creating of money in form of new money what is debt
Big financial institution controlling the world creating new debt money.Money and politic
All that benefit big corporation companies
Now we kind of people money what is bitcoin and his incredible story
And we all see what regulatory  problems bitcoin is experiencing

[andriarto]

from the beginning it was like this, and corruption was always unavoidable because of the existence of money and the status of the ruler. I think crypto is time to be legalized.

Cryptocurrency will not lessen the corrupt people, they will find a way to get money as easy as possible. We are greed to money, let’s admit this one but its too sad that other people can’t control their emotion and do bad things to other people. We can always earn clean money if you want to, emotion is not a great excuse.

Most of the crypto currencies were not completely traceable,so if someone can find the address then we can traceout the money he is holding in illegal way but it will be harder to prove it.But when we have decentralization on payments everywhere then there is no need to bribe anyone because we can find transperency which has no way for people to cheat the system.

You are right, because people will always find ways to do things that can keep them profitable even though it is illegal, in my opinion the repair is not the financial system itself, but the mental revolution of humans, we are greedy thats the fact..

greedy makes people impose their wishes. so that those who can take advantage of the greediness of others will benefit. I think technical is an approach from the psychology of the average person, so that such indicators and references to open transactions. and politics that affect market mobility because they can control psychology

[deisik]

At the center of his conclusion that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies have no real value proposition is that the top Western currencies have no store-of-value problem.  True, the US is not Zimbabwe, or Venezuela, but is a bright person like himself not aware that a dollar or pound is worth a small fraction of itself decades to a century ago?

Is it possible to stop people from telling half truths all the time?

Everyone is quick to say that the dollar depreciated like 99% during the last 100 years but why are they so forgetful to add that it is not just the dollar that lost value but also salaries and wages that rose proportionately, while the real purchasing power of people today is incomparable to what it had been 100 years ago?

The nominal value of the dollar (and how much it can buy) is irrelevant since it doesn't mean anything on its own without considering how much people can buy with their income. You can add a couple of zeros or subtract as many but as long as incomes change proportionately, it is completely inconsequential

[Duzter]

from the beginning it was like this, and corruption was always unavoidable because of the existence of money and the status of the ruler. I think crypto is time to be legalized.

Cryptocurrency will not lessen the corrupt people, they will find a way to get money as easy as possible. We are greed to money, let’s admit this one but its too sad that other people can’t control their emotion and do bad things to other people. We can always earn clean money if you want to, emotion is not a great excuse.

Most of the crypto currencies were not completely traceable,so if someone can find the address then we can traceout the money he is holding in illegal way but it will be harder to prove it.But when we have decentralization on payments everywhere then there is no need to bribe anyone because we can find transperency which has no way for people to cheat the system.

With blockchain technology into implementation on the governance of a country each and every activity happening will be transparent. This will make the system more effective and let the politicians away from corruption which is the major reason for the lacking of development happening in a country.

[BobK71]

At the center of his conclusion that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies have no real value proposition is that the top Western currencies have no store-of-value problem.  True, the US is not Zimbabwe, or Venezuela, but is a bright person like himself not aware that a dollar or pound is worth a small fraction of itself decades to a century ago?

Is it possible to stop people from telling half truths all the time?

Everyone is quick to say that the dollar depreciated like 99% during the last 100 years but why are they so forgetful to add that it is not just the dollar that lost value but also salaries and wages that rose proportionately, while the real purchasing power of people today is incomparable to what it had been 100 years ago?

The nominal value of the dollar (and how much it can buy) is irrelevant since it doesn't mean anything on its own without considering how much people can buy with their income. You can add a couple of zeros or subtract as many but as long as incomes change proportionately, it is completely inconsequential

It really is this simple: put a $100 bill on the table, and leave it for 100 years.  How much purchasing power is left?  And compare that to gold or Bitcoin.  This is the store of value of a money, period.

Now if you want to argue the average person doesn't get hurt by this inflation, that's a completely different issue.  First of all, you shouldn't store your savings in dollar cash.  (Sure, your current income will keep going up, but what about the income of the past that you sweated equally for and saved away?)

If you want to argue that you can get better returns by investing in stocks, bonds and bank deposits...  Fine, but, again, we're talking about the store of value of money, not stock in a company, and I don't think you want to get into how savers are forced by this money system to take risks and help prop up the system (which is where this discussion would lead to.)

You want to argue this entire system of money is beneficial?  What you can point to is that material wealth has increased greatly overall.  What I can point to is that this turbo-charging of growth is artificial, ie not driven by market forces but by central planning at the core monetary and financial levels of the system, by pumping money and debt into the system during the boom phase of the cycle.

The fruits of this unnatural growth is time poverty leading to all kinds of unhappiness, addiction and mental illness.  And this is among the lucky.  The unluckiest of the world get their family members and homes blown up by bombs because the system incentivizes the elites of the dominant imperial countries to use wars and 'regime change' to force other countries to support the system, directly or indirectly.

The state-bank alliance is the disease of this world.

[deisik]

At the center of his conclusion that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies have no real value proposition is that the top Western currencies have no store-of-value problem.  True, the US is not Zimbabwe, or Venezuela, but is a bright person like himself not aware that a dollar or pound is worth a small fraction of itself decades to a century ago?

Is it possible to stop people from telling half truths all the time?

Everyone is quick to say that the dollar depreciated like 99% during the last 100 years but why are they so forgetful to add that it is not just the dollar that lost value but also salaries and wages that rose proportionately, while the real purchasing power of people today is incomparable to what it had been 100 years ago?

The nominal value of the dollar (and how much it can buy) is irrelevant since it doesn't mean anything on its own without considering how much people can buy with their income. You can add a couple of zeros or subtract as many but as long as incomes change proportionately, it is completely inconsequential

It really is this simple: put a $100 bill on the table, and leave it for 100 years.  How much purchasing power is left?  And compare that to gold or Bitcoin.  This is the store of value of a money, period

You won't live for 100 years, end of story. Well, in fact you may, but then in the end of this timeframe, the purchasing power of the 100 dollar bill will be your least concern as I come to think. And technically, you would be proved wrong if you were to actually put that bill on the table 100 years ago as it would acquire quite a lot of numismatic value by now, so in the end, your purchasing power would have actually increased multifold (provided you would still care, of course)

And it is not given that Bitcoin will still be around in just 10 years from now on

Now if you want to argue the average person doesn't get hurt by this inflation, that's a completely different issue.  First of all, you shouldn't store your savings in dollar cash.  (Sure, your current income will keep going up, but what about the income of the past that you sweated equally for and saved away?)

Fiat money is not a long-term store of value. If it were, it would not be good as a currency. In this manner, your whole point becomes kinda truism (read, you should spend it, not save)

If you want to argue that you can get better returns by investing in stocks, bonds and bank deposits...  Fine, but, again, we're talking about the store of value of money, not stock in a company, and I don't think you want to get into how savers are forced by this money system to take risks and help prop up the system (which is where this discussion would lead to.)

Technically, you are talking about the store of value of fiat money. This is a subtle distinction (as not all monies are born equal), but once made, there is not much left for debate (see above)

You want to argue this entire system of money is beneficial?  What you can point to is that material wealth has increased greatly overall.  What I can point to is that this turbo-charging of growth is artificial, ie not driven by market forces but by central planning at the core monetary and financial levels of the system, by pumping money and debt into the system during the boom phase of the cycle

Money, and fiat money in particular, is a tool and how it is used and to what end depends on who is using it and what their goals are. In other words, don't shoot the messenger

The fruits of this unnatural growth is time poverty leading to all kinds of unhappiness, addiction and mental illness. And this is among the lucky.  The unluckiest of the world get their family members and homes blown up by bombs because the system incentivizes the elites of the dominant imperial countries to use wars and 'regime change' to force other countries to support the system, directly or indirectly

Well, you can't actually expect people to be any different. As they say, charity begins at home (just in case, Bitcoin is no exception to this rule of thumb)

[daarul50]

Here is the actual function of bitcoin, which is to fight the politicians' elite against the currency or the transaction system. The freedom to trade bitcoin is able to fight what they want. politics cannot be separated from money because political activities require money that is not small with that they twist money to be used as their political tools. Of course, we don't want to be colonized by these elite people. Therefore, as a person who wants economic freedom, bitcoin is one way to fight it and restore the glory of an asset of all money that is now even let down by everyone.

[n0ne]

Here is the actual function of bitcoin, which is to fight the politicians' elite against the currency or the transaction system. The freedom to trade bitcoin is able to fight what they want. politics cannot be separated from money because political activities require money that is not small with that they twist money to be used as their political tools. Of course, we don't want to be colonized by these elite people. Therefore, as a person who wants economic freedom, bitcoin is one way to fight it and restore the glory of an asset of all money that is now even let down by everyone.

There were very few number of politicians that do service to the citizens while majority of the politicians are corrupt and used to dump cash. This cash never gets useful for any of the mankind, and to overcome these corrupt hands the transparency is a must. This is possible through bitcoin as well other cryptocurrencies. Truly money is politics, but due to the exception that is found in every government the people live.

[Hardtolife]

After the recent economic crisis that started in 2008 with the fall of Lehman Brothers I understood that money is a tool for politicians.
They use it in order to cover their own bad political decisions and manipulate the crowd's opinion. They don't care about the cases that they create with regulations and other decisions that affect the society.

This is the reason why fiat is a scam and why this bubble is going to blow in the next years with a more disastrous crisis than the latest one.

Money has always been and always will be connected with politics. As well as banks are always connected with governments. But maybe the worst thing is that everyone seams to get used to that. Crisis appear in regular cycles, obviously they can't be avoided anymore and the only question is how heavy they will strike. That is why cryptocurrencies need to offer some kind of alternative and solution.

I agree with you, indeed everything is connected to each other. for example, the rise and fall of money prices is also certain because politics and banks have a definite problem directly with the government. I really expect cryptocurrency to make it not impact each other and those who have virtual money make it easier to use it.

[BobK71]

It really is this simple: put a $100 bill on the table, and leave it for 100 years.  How much purchasing power is left?  And compare that to gold or Bitcoin.  This is the store of value of a money, period

You won't live for 100 years, end of story. Well, in fact you may, but then in the end of this timeframe, the purchasing power of the 100 dollar bill will be your least concern as I come to think. And technically, you would be proved wrong if you were to actually put that bill on the table 100 years ago as it would acquire quite a lot of numismatic value by now, so in the end, your purchasing power would have actually increased multifold (provided you would still care, of course)

And it is not given that Bitcoin will still be around in just 10 years from now on

The bottom line is, fiat money is a terrible store of value over the long term.  End of story (as you say.)

When you have to claim store-of-value by using numismatics, it's time to say the system is broke.

Fiat money is not a long-term store of value. If it were, it would not be good as a currency. In this manner, your whole point becomes kinda truism (read, you should spend it, not save)

This entire argument assumes that the powers who run the system have our best interest at heart and have been correct to force people to spend or take risks with their savings.  This is the true face of central planning.  The final results of central planning are theft, deception, and murder.

Money, and fiat money in particular, is a tool and how it is used and to what end depends on who is using it and what their goals are. In other words, don't shoot the messenger

'Fiat' money, by definition, is controlled by the political and financial elites (issued 'by fiat.')  As soon as that power is concentrated, the incentives for the elites make sure that theft, deception and murder will happen.

The fruits of this unnatural growth is time poverty leading to all kinds of unhappiness, addiction and mental illness. And this is among the lucky.  The unluckiest of the world get their family members and homes blown up by bombs because the system incentivizes the elites of the dominant imperial countries to use wars and 'regime change' to force other countries to support the system, directly or indirectly

Well, you can't actually expect people to be any different. As they say, charity begins at home (just in case, Bitcoin is no exception to this rule of thumb)

True, the only way for real change to happen is that we realize 'you can't expect people to be any different,' and take the power of money away from the elites.  (What role Bitcoin plays in this is actually not very important.)

[Artemis3]

The point of Bitcoin is that is taken away from the hands of politicians and financial institutions so they can't destroy it anymore when they see fit, as it has always been done to the fiat.

Separating money from state, would be an apt description. Precisely because its political, we came with this technical solution, already knowing that it would be under attack by politicians who get in panic of a money they can no longer be "controlled". That is until the newer generations more open to crypto end replacing the old.

[deisik]

The fruits of this unnatural growth is time poverty leading to all kinds of unhappiness, addiction and mental illness. And this is among the lucky.  The unluckiest of the world get their family members and homes blown up by bombs because the system incentivizes the elites of the dominant imperial countries to use wars and 'regime change' to force other countries to support the system, directly or indirectly

Well, you can't actually expect people to be any different. As they say, charity begins at home (just in case, Bitcoin is no exception to this rule of thumb)

True, the only way for real change to happen is that we realize 'you can't expect people to be any different,' and take the power of money away from the elites.  (What role Bitcoin plays in this is actually not very important.)

That's likely the only point that I agree with

However, that is not my point at all. If we take the power of (creating) money away from the elites, we should offer something else instead, right? And that's the crux of the matter (and point of discord). While credit money (I'm specifically using this term to avoid using fiat as in your eyes it is synonymous with centralization) is made bad by the powers that be ("the elites") by debasing it via excessive money printing (like QE's), Bitcoin is simply not suitable for the purpose credit money plays in the economy. I mean money as a currency, not as a store of value

[Spaffin]

From the very beginning and until today, money has been and will be a political tool. The release of money has always been the privileges of the state, the ruling elite. Therefore, fake money has always been considered one of the most serious crimes and often punished with the death penalty. The release of other, private money in the state was prohibited. That is why states are set to the emergence of cryptocurrency, if not with hostility, then with suspicion. Therefore, the cryptocurrency is very slowly legalized by the states.

[Flyingduck2K]

would be interesting to see data-correlations with politics/bitcoin price

[Yakamoto]

The fruits of this unnatural growth is time poverty leading to all kinds of unhappiness, addiction and mental illness. And this is among the lucky.  The unluckiest of the world get their family members and homes blown up by bombs because the system incentivizes the elites of the dominant imperial countries to use wars and 'regime change' to force other countries to support the system, directly or indirectly

Well, you can't actually expect people to be any different. As they say, charity begins at home (just in case, Bitcoin is no exception to this rule of thumb)

True, the only way for real change to happen is that we realize 'you can't expect people to be any different,' and take the power of money away from the elites.  (What role Bitcoin plays in this is actually not very important.)

That's likely the only point that I agree with

However, that is not my point at all. If we take the power of (creating) money away from the elites, we should offer something else instead, right? And that's the crux of the matter (and point of discord). While credit money (I'm specifically using this term to avoid using fiat as in your eyes it is synonymous with centralization) is made bad by the powers that be ("the elites") by debasing it via excessive money printing (like QE's), Bitcoin is simply not suitable for the purpose credit money plays in the economy. I mean money as a currency, not as a store of value

What would you even be able to give bankers back in exchange for "reclaiming" the monetary supply? Controlling the money of a nation is one of the primary means of controlling the entirety of the nation, and it might as well be the biggest and most-entrenched out of the other methods. There's nothing that can be offered in exchange aside from what would amount to literally giving them the country and then some.

Bitcoin is a great store of wealth and an excellent means of taking your money out of the economy as a whole, which in and of itself can be very important, but you're right when you say that Bitcoin can't fulfill the same purposes fiat does. You just have to find a way to play the game without relying on fiat and "beat the system", I guess.