Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Your attorney would certainly ask you those questions by way of gathering background and knowing what issues to steer away from. And their defense would certainly raise those points.

For damaged, people would be claiming their list funds as damages. So that's easy to solve prior to appearing in court, but after the plaintiffs attorney had already collected some fees. Or people could take the more aggressive route and try to claim their perceived "lost" coins as damages, at which point there would be argument after argument as to what the state of bitcoin prices might have been had they shipped their units sooner. Which ultimately would only go to lining the lawyers pockets.

But yes, ultimately I'd be shocked if anyone from this thread actually filed a suit. It's still been an amusing read, though...

I've found dozens of lawyers and law firms in Kansas City alone. Fellow users on this forum has already PM'd me with contacts for their lawyers with proven track record. Currently I'm formulating the initial query to selected few of them. I want to keep my case simple and straightforward, so I will sue only for the refund and for the costs of my legal defense. No lost mining revenue questionable stuff. Stick to the facts:

1. your honor, here is an pre-order (insert date and proof here)
2. here is a payment (insert date and proof here)
3. months passed by, there is no shipment
4. here is a refund request (insert date and proof here)
5. here is a reply denying the refund request (insert date and proof here)
6. here is this law, that requires seller to issue a refund on request (insert the reference here)
7. here is the costs of legal defense (final amount will be provided after the trial has ended)
8. GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK BFL
9. here is the Power of Attorney from this Trupik gentleman from Europe (insert document here)

GAME ON!

[fractal02]

Your attorney would certainly ask you those questions by way of gathering background and knowing what issues to steer away from. And their defense would certainly raise those points.

For damaged, people would be claiming their list funds as damages. So that's easy to solve prior to appearing in court, but after the plaintiffs attorney had already collected some fees. Or people could take the more aggressive route and try to claim their perceived "lost" coins as damages, at which point there would be argument after argument as to what the state of bitcoin prices might have been had they shipped their units sooner. Which ultimately would only go to lining the lawyers pockets.

But yes, ultimately I'd be shocked if anyone from this thread actually filed a suit. It's still been an amusing read, though...

I've found dozens of lawyers and law firms in Kansas City alone. Fellow users on this forum has already PM'd me with contacts for their lawyers with proven track record. Currently I'm formulating the initial query to selected few of them. I want to keep my case simple and straightforward, so I will sue only for the refund and for the costs of my legal defense. No lost mining revenue questionable stuff. Stick to the facts:

1. your honor, here is an pre-order (insert date and proof here)
2. here is a payment (insert date and proof here)
3. months passed by, there is no shipment
4. here is a refund request (insert date and proof here)
5. here is a reply denying the refund request (insert date and proof here)
6. here is this law, that requires seller to issue a refund on request (insert the reference here)
7. here is the costs of legal defense (final amount will be provided after the trial has ended)
8. GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK BFL
9. here is the Power of Attorney from this Trupik gentleman from Europe (insert document here)

DREAM ON !

[Trupik]

fractal02: You are obviously with BFL puppets and/or trolls here, trying to spread uncertainty and despair among the victims of this infamous company and derailing this thread into idiocy. As such, I'm hitting ignore on you as well. Bye.

[Trupik]

The important thing to repeat, because it got spammed away by trolls:

Re: Don't buy anything from BUTTERFLY LABS ===> Big SCAMMERS EVER!
Today at 19:54:32
Quote from: CrashX on August 22, 2013, 17:38:38

For those living in the States,

If you have purchase a product from BFL and you haven't received it. And you waited at least 2 to 3 months and have requested a refund and you haven't received one.

You could sue for not issuing  refund, there is two type of lawsuits, for small claims I wrote in details the process below.


    File a Small Claim in your county/city court.  Each county has its a limit on how much you could sue a person or company for. Here is Tucson, AZ were I'm from its $2,500 max.

    You don't need an Attorney,

    Just fill the form, [Write in details your claim] you will have to pay a small fee, Here Tucson, AZ is 25.00,
                                   ^^Type out in a computer and just submitted with your claim^^

    Then you need to send them CERTIFIED LETTER with a copy of the lawsuit and copy of your invoice and your full details.
                                               ^^with signature required and returned proof, this will cost you $5 at the USPS

    They will have 3 options
         1. they settle the claim stating that they have issue you a refund and for you to drop the lawsuit and agree to it
         2. Challenge your claim and op to go court...They will respond to court in which they need to send you a copy of there response.
           I. If they want to challenge you, that means they need to travel all the way to your court.
           II. with there response you will know what they are planning.
         3. They don't response, then you go to court by your self and Win the case, because the defendant didn't show up.
           I. If you win by default the Judge will issue you a judgment, in which you could use to make them pay or have the company locked down with everything inside, if they refuse to pay.

Small Claims are pretty easy to do, just make sure do everything required.

I'm pretty good at it will help you out with paper work

[k9quaint]

To which the attorney might ask "so, when did you order? October? And they were offering refunds no questions asked up until May or June? And despite all their missed targets, you never once requested a refund during the first 8 months that your order was outstanding? Only started demanding one after they had given notice that they wouldn't be providing refunds any longer?

None of that is relevant and no competent attorney would even allow that line of questioning to happen.  No sale has occurred because BFL has not delivered.  By the UCC they have no legal standing to refuse a refund on a contract they have failed to fulfill.   All "sales are final" is certainly legal but it requires a sale.

A "sale" consists in the passing of title from the seller to the buyer for a price (Section 2-401).

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-106

For all orders which haven't shipped not sale has occurred.  It doesn't even really matter if BFL is in breach although their numerous false statements would make it likely the court would find them so.  It doesn't matter if BFL made those statements in good faith.  One can act in good faith and still be in breech of a contract.  Still the entire issue of a breach is moot as it relates to a refund as there is no "sale" only a "sale contract" and a sale contract can be ended by either party by termination even in the absence of a breech.  

BFL has had to retreat from their "all sales are final" several times already (for the reasons you mention here), yet they still tell their customers they can't have refunds.

[btcdrak]

Count me in.

If you havent done so, please file a complaint with the FTC also, takes 5 minutes online. There is no a case open with the DA of Kansas http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/1l5oz5/kansas_ag_replied_to_my_consumer_protection/
You should probably also file a case with the DA.

[bcp19]

Watch out, you really can have an ISP pull the plug on your account.

Having consulted a lawyer, I truly hope he goes that route.  I already have a countersuit ready for his threat, and if he gets my internet access taken down then I have a suit ready for either him or my ISP.  My ISP if they are too dumb and act on information from a random stranger without getting his personel information, and against him if he does provide that information.  Unlike his spurius libel claim, I *will* have a monetary impact if he gets my internet turned off.  Up until he presents his case in a court of law and gets a favorable ruling, any action by hm against me is actionable.  

[PuertoLibre]

Watch out, you really can have an ISP pull the plug on your account.

Having consulted a lawyer, I truly hope he goes that route.  I already have a countersuit ready for his threat, and if he gets my internet access taken down then I have a suit ready for either him or my ISP.  My ISP if they are too dumb and act on information from a random stranger without getting his personel information, and against him if he does provide that information.  Unlike his spurius libel claim, I *will* have a monetary impact if he gets my internet turned off.  Up until he presents his case in a court of law and gets a favorable ruling, any action by hm against me is actionable.  

I understand your sentiments. But shutting down a persons account is very easy...dangerously so...and legally.

There are so many spurious terms of agreement that you two have with your ISP, that if he proves you were at a certain location and posted a certain thing, that may or may not be enough to get your account terminated at the ISP.

I know this because I have seen grown babies (manchilds) do this to one another when they get a little too stupid for words. Then they turn to the FBI to have each other investigated like idiots.

You'd probably think that people in high authority in the US government and the Armed Forces are different than you average folk. Lets just say, the only difference is their ability to use English properly. Some of the nasty ones even turned to department heads at AFOSI and DIA (and/or the FBI) to have them frivolously investigated.

--------------------

Point being, watch out. (to both of you)

[solareclipse64236]

I'm interested in joining up for a class action lawsuit for the following:

1. misleading advertisements
2. taking pre-orders too early and shipping too late
3. starting taking in pre-orders around summer of 2012 and shipped summer of 2013, more than 12 months
4. was banned from the bfl forums for 'racism and muck-raking'
5. I was shipped a 30 gigahash machine that looks like a 60 gigahash machine. 30 gh is small and 60 gh is suppose to be a log.
6. product was shipped august 9 and it took until august 19 for me to pick it up because someone smeared petroleum jelly mixed with lighter fluid/kerosene on top of my box
7. bad customer service, they keep insisting that i shouldn't keep messaging them, or typing in caps lock(using the phone works, the guy who picks up is the bomb dude, his name is Paul)
8. no software was included
9. no instructions was included
10. started advertising for supercomputer bitforce january 2012
11. BFL_JODY claims that I have not paid for an upgrade to 60 gigahash, even though I have a screenshot of invoice 5856b as 'fully paid'
12. In "my account", my upgrade to 60 gigahash is set to 'pending' and i have instruction to pay by wire transfer, when I HAVE ALREADY PAID IN FULL on April 2013

[plasticuser]

I have filed against BFL in their county's small claims court. I'm just waiting for an acknowledgement and notice of service.

This will afford me some discovery.

Alas, if BFL sends me a miner before the court date, there's little I can do as they'll have a perfect defense, but that's pretty much the only defense they have at their disposal.

[dogjunior]

BFL is playing the same game auto maker do.

If there is a defect in a car that will kill a person. They calculate how many people will die and the money they will have to payout/fight in court versus a recall. If
it is cheaper to payout/fight in court then that's what they will do.  

Same with BFL.

They have money put aside for lawyers and lawsuits. Easier for them to fight people then to give refunds.  Some may get a lawsuit going. Most people will wait for their orders to
come in and don't care about ROI. This is a hobby or a novelty for them. Only a small percentage will get a lawsuit going because this would require a lot of money and BFL has it.

In the end BFL is one step ahead of all those thinking about taking them to court.  

[PuertoLibre]

How much did the process cost so far? (30$?)

How involved was the paper filing process? (or did you do it online?)

[bcp19]

Watch out, you really can have an ISP pull the plug on your account.

Having consulted a lawyer, I truly hope he goes that route.  I already have a countersuit ready for his threat, and if he gets my internet access taken down then I have a suit ready for either him or my ISP.  My ISP if they are too dumb and act on information from a random stranger without getting his personel information, and against him if he does provide that information.  Unlike his spurius libel claim, I *will* have a monetary impact if he gets my internet turned off.  Up until he presents his case in a court of law and gets a favorable ruling, any action by hm against me is actionable.  

I understand your sentiments. But shutting down a persons account is very easy...dangerously so...and legally.

There are so many spurious terms of agreement that you two have with your ISP, that if he proves you were at a certain location and posted a certain thing, that may or may not be enough to get your account terminated at the ISP.

I know this because I have seen grown babies (manchilds) do this to one another when they get a little too stupid for words. Then they turn to the FBI to have each other investigated like idiots.

You'd probably think that people in high authority in the US government and the Armed Forces are different than you average folk. Lets just say, the only difference is their ability to use English properly. Some of the nasty ones even turned to department heads at AFOSI and DIA (and/or the FBI) to have them frivolously investigated.

--------------------

Point being, watch out. (to both of you)

You are quite correct.  That word may be one of the watchwords for the NSA and their electronic surveillance.  Maybe they have already sent both mine and his information to the FBI for further investigation.  I personally welcome it, I have nothing to hide.

[lucasjkr]

I'm interested in joining up for a class action lawsuit for the following:

1. misleading advertisements
What was misleading about them aside from the expectation of when they would ship? Yes, the form factor changed and power consumption increased over initial expectations, but they notified all the pre-orders and made them opt in to remaining in the order queue. Ie, if you didn't explicitly agree, you'd be removed from the queue and your

2. taking pre-orders too early and shipping too late
Given the expense to develop a chip, and not knowing what the demand would be, they needed to take pre-orders to insure that there would be enough orders to cover the costs. Production, yes, took longer than expected, but just looking at the semiconductor industry, there are plenty of examples of not hitting deadlines.

3. starting taking in pre-orders around summer of 2012 and shipped summer of 2013, more than 12 months
Same as two.

4. was banned from the bfl forums for 'racism and muck-raking'
I wouldn't think that anyone has an implicit right to use any forum. Racism, for instance, they could have every right not to tolerate. And "muck raking", who knows what that means, but using their forum to attempt to drive away their customers, for example, isn't something they would have to tolerate.

5. I was shipped a 30 gigahash machine that looks like a 60 gigahash machine. 30 gh is small and 60 gh is suppose to be a log.
They sent notice about the change of size/power consumptions just prior to commencing shipping. We all agreed to the change, or we would have been refunded.

6. product was shipped august 9 and it took until august 19 for me to pick it up because someone smeared petroleum jelly mixed with lighter fluid/kerosene on top of my box
No way to determine where the vaseline and lighter fluid came from. Personally, i doubt it was because of their handling.

7. bad customer service, they keep insisting that i shouldn't keep messaging them, or typing in caps lock(using the phone works, the guy who picks up is the bomb dude, his name is Paul)
So asking people to call rather than email is class action worthy? As is asking people to use the shift key on occassion?

8. no software was included
No ASIC's include software, to my knowledge. They don't know if you're using mac, windows, linux (and then, ubuntu, fedora, centos, x86 or ARM), cgminer, bitminter, or another program or platform.

9. no instructions was included
speaking for myself, there was a slip included in the box providing a web address to visit for instructions.

10. started advertising for supercomputer bitforce january 2012
That's back to points 1, 2 and 3. But advertising a product early isn't a crime.

11. BFL_JODY claims that I have not paid for an upgrade to 60 gigahash, even though I have a screenshot of invoice 5856b as 'fully paid'
I would suggest trying to call customer service rather than have account specific issues dealt with on their blog.

12. In "my account", my upgrade to 60 gigahash is set to 'pending' and i have instruction to pay by wire transfer, when I HAVE ALREADY PAID IN FULL on April 2013
Call your nice customer service man named "Paul" and have him clear this up for you. Wire transfers are traceable, there shouldn't be any problem having your payment properly credited to your account.


Those are my suggestions. Do with them as you will. They're hardly grounds for joining a class action... but that's just my opinion.

[PuertoLibre]

Watch out, you really can have an ISP pull the plug on your account.

Having consulted a lawyer, I truly hope he goes that route.  I already have a countersuit ready for his threat, and if he gets my internet access taken down then I have a suit ready for either him or my ISP.  My ISP if they are too dumb and act on information from a random stranger without getting his personel information, and against him if he does provide that information.  Unlike his spurius libel claim, I *will* have a monetary impact if he gets my internet turned off.  Up until he presents his case in a court of law and gets a favorable ruling, any action by hm against me is actionable.  

I understand your sentiments. But shutting down a persons account is very easy...dangerously so...and legally.

There are so many spurious terms of agreement that you two have with your ISP, that if he proves you were at a certain location and posted a certain thing, that may or may not be enough to get your account terminated at the ISP.

I know this because I have seen grown babies (manchilds) do this to one another when they get a little too stupid for words. Then they turn to the FBI to have each other investigated like idiots.

You'd probably think that people in high authority in the US government and the Armed Forces are different than you average folk. Lets just say, the only difference is their ability to use English properly. Some of the nasty ones even turned to department heads at AFOSI and DIA (and/or the FBI) to have them frivolously investigated.

--------------------

Point being, watch out. (to both of you)

You are quite correct.  That word may be one of the watchwords for the NSA and their electronic surveillance.  Maybe they have already sent both mine and his information to the FBI for further investigation.  I personally welcome it, I have nothing to hide.

It doesn't work that way. Unless you use a ton of keywords like Al Queda, Obama, etc.

You are probably thinking of context sensitive crawlers and flagging. In which case you'd probably have to write it out in a different language if you want to draw any attention.

If you threaten to blow up the white house (or harm the president), the FBI is obligated to investigate such occurrences. (Yes, they actually send someone...well if you report it at least.)

=========================

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Thats just one tool that is recently become public. The tool allows someone to type in a web address such as: www.butterflylabs.com and it will give an analyst access to the IP's that have visited that site.

Or you could type in your IP and a few keywords and bring up your online browsing history.

Google History: https://accounts.google.com/Login?service=hist

You can wipe your history off the public servers but retention means it is available for a long, long time.

[mah87]

I'm interested in joining up for a class action lawsuit for the following:

1. misleading advertisements
What was misleading about them aside from the expectation of when they would ship? Yes, the form factor changed and power consumption increased over initial expectations, but they notified all the pre-orders and made them opt in to remaining in the order queue. Ie, if you didn't explicitly agree, you'd be removed from the queue and your

2. taking pre-orders too early and shipping too late
Given the expense to develop a chip, and not knowing what the demand would be, they needed to take pre-orders to insure that there would be enough orders to cover the costs. Production, yes, took longer than expected, but just looking at the semiconductor industry, there are plenty of examples of not hitting deadlines.

3. starting taking in pre-orders around summer of 2012 and shipped summer of 2013, more than 12 months
Same as two.

4. was banned from the bfl forums for 'racism and muck-raking'
I wouldn't think that anyone has an implicit right to use any forum. Racism, for instance, they could have every right not to tolerate. And "muck raking", who knows what that means, but using their forum to attempt to drive away their customers, for example, isn't something they would have to tolerate.

5. I was shipped a 30 gigahash machine that looks like a 60 gigahash machine. 30 gh is small and 60 gh is suppose to be a log.
They sent notice about the change of size/power consumptions just prior to commencing shipping. We all agreed to the change, or we would have been refunded.

6. product was shipped august 9 and it took until august 19 for me to pick it up because someone smeared petroleum jelly mixed with lighter fluid/kerosene on top of my box
No way to determine where the vaseline and lighter fluid came from. Personally, i doubt it was because of their handling.

7. bad customer service, they keep insisting that i shouldn't keep messaging them, or typing in caps lock(using the phone works, the guy who picks up is the bomb dude, his name is Paul)
So asking people to call rather than email is class action worthy? As is asking people to use the shift key on occassion?

8. no software was included
No ASIC's include software, to my knowledge. They don't know if you're using mac, windows, linux (and then, ubuntu, fedora, centos, x86 or ARM), cgminer, bitminter, or another program or platform.

9. no instructions was included
speaking for myself, there was a slip included in the box providing a web address to visit for instructions.

10. started advertising for supercomputer bitforce january 2012
That's back to points 1, 2 and 3. But advertising a product early isn't a crime.

11. BFL_JODY claims that I have not paid for an upgrade to 60 gigahash, even though I have a screenshot of invoice 5856b as 'fully paid'
I would suggest trying to call customer service rather than have account specific issues dealt with on their blog.

12. In "my account", my upgrade to 60 gigahash is set to 'pending' and i have instruction to pay by wire transfer, when I HAVE ALREADY PAID IN FULL on April 2013
Call your nice customer service man named "Paul" and have him clear this up for you. Wire transfers are traceable, there shouldn't be any problem having your payment properly credited to your account.


Those are my suggestions. Do with them as you will. They're hardly grounds for joining a class action... but that's just my opinion.

Joining this forum in may 2013 you just don't know what you are talking about.

[lucasjkr]

Because i'd never heard of bitcoin until then?

Because Reddit didn't exist back then?

And my friends and I didn't mine with GPU's, because I hadn't joined this forum?

I mean, I've already received my August 2012 order from BFL (since re-sold), but how could that have happened? Apparently it would be impossible for someone to have been interested in bitcoin and participating in the economy at any point prior to joining this one website... Silly me!

I'm sorry, I trully didn't realize that that this site was the be-all end-all gauge of how long someone has known about Bitcoin and the related companies. Had I known that, I surely would have rushed to join it a long time earlier!

 

[bcp19]

You are quite correct.  That word may be one of the watchwords for the NSA and their electronic surveillance.  Maybe they have already sent both mine and his information to the FBI for further investigation.  I personally welcome it, I have nothing to hide.

It doesn't work that way. Unless you use a ton of keywords like Al Queda, Obama, etc.

You are probably thinking of context sensitive crawlers and flagging. In which case you'd probably have to write it out in a different language if you want to draw any attention.

If you threaten to blow up the white house (or harm the president), the FBI is obligated to investigate such occurrences. (Yes, they actually send someone...well if you report it at least.)

=========================

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Thats just one tool that is recently become public. The tool allows someone to type in a web address such as: www.butterflylabs.com and it will give an analyst access to the IP's that have visited that site.

Or you could type in your IP and a few keywords and bring up your online browsing history.

Google History: https://accounts.google.com/Login?service=hist

You can wipe your history off the public servers but retention means it is available for a long, long time.

OMG! Now you've done it!!! <AUUUUGGGGGHHHHH>

[plasticuser]

How much did the process cost so far? (30$?)

How involved was the paper filing process? (or did you do it online?)

The cost so far has been $55. $50 is the filing fee, and $5 is the separate service fee, which is sent to the sheriff's dept.

The process was just two simple forms.

[YipYip]

Watch out, you really can have an ISP pull the plug on your account.

Having consulted a lawyer, I truly hope he goes that route.  I already have a countersuit ready for his threat, and if he gets my internet access taken down then I have a suit ready for either him or my ISP.  My ISP if they are too dumb and act on information from a random stranger without getting his personel information, and against him if he does provide that information.  Unlike his spurius libel claim, I *will* have a monetary impact if he gets my internet turned off.  Up until he presents his case in a court of law and gets a favorable ruling, any action by hm against me is actionable.  

I understand your sentiments. But shutting down a persons account is very easy...dangerously so...and legally.

There are so many spurious terms of agreement that you two have with your ISP, that if he proves you were at a certain location and posted a certain thing, that may or may not be enough to get your account terminated at the ISP.

I know this because I have seen grown babies (manchilds) do this to one another when they get a little too stupid for words. Then they turn to the FBI to have each other investigated like idiots.

You'd probably think that people in high authority in the US government and the Armed Forces are different than you average folk. Lets just say, the only difference is their ability to use English properly. Some of the nasty ones even turned to department heads at AFOSI and DIA (and/or the FBI) to have them frivolously investigated.

--------------------

Point being, watch out. (to both of you)

You are quite correct.  That word may be one of the watchwords for the NSA and their electronic surveillance.  Maybe they have already sent both mine and his information to the FBI for further investigation.  I personally welcome it, I have nothing to hide.

It doesn't work that way. Unless you use a ton of keywords like Al Queda, Obama, etc.

You are probably thinking of context sensitive crawlers and flagging. In which case you'd probably have to write it out in a different language if you want to draw any attention.

If you threaten to blow up the white house (or harm the president), the FBI is obligated to investigate such occurrences. (Yes, they actually send someone...well if you report it at least.)

=========================

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Thats just one tool that is recently become public. The tool allows someone to type in a web address such as: www.butterflylabs.com and it will give an analyst access to the IP's that have visited that site.

Or you could type in your IP and a few keywords and bring up your online browsing history.

Google History: https://accounts.google.com/Login?service=hist

You can wipe your history off the public servers but retention means it is available for a long, long time.

Dont bother with that guy as he is broken......