Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action

[the_remote]

It applies to all businesses. Just because a business is bitcoin related does not put it above the law.
Not sure you actually read his post, or understand anything that is not insults.

Yes precisely.  BFL is selling hardware, not bitcoins.  Bitcoins are a grey area still, but selling actual physical products is not a grey area at all.  There is basic contract law governing sales in the United States.  You do not need a "paper" contract to be entitled to these protections.

When you walk into a store and buy something you don't need both parties to sign a paper contract to be protected under consumer protection laws.  They are automatic when a sale is made and BFL is violating many of these laws by not delivering products on time and refusing refunds when they do so.

[1714876361]

1714876361

[mruiter]

Hey Josh,

Any comment on the 250 usd you are still holding and are not willing to pay back.
BFL is not even answering mails any more.

Stealing and not contacting a customer is Against The Law.

This alone make BFL a criminal organisation.

Look it op in you're system and try to make up an excuses for that !
my nickname should pop it up if you have any real administration sysytem

[the_remote]

I have posted a topic on how to file a FTC complaint against BFL on their illegal behavior regarding late shipments and refusing refunds.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319522.msg3419162#msg3419162

This takes less than 10 minutes and I encourage EVERYONE who has had problems with BFL to fill it out.  The more complaints filed the faster they will investigate them and put a stop to this nonsense.  If my above posts did not show that this is illegal behavior by BFL then follow my guide on the FTC web site and you will see that it indeed is a federal trade violation and they can get in massive trouble for this.  It's illegal and that's why you don't see other businesses behaving this way.

[Bicknellski]

I wish those wronged by BFL would simply work collectively as much as possible and put BFL's toes to the fire for what many customers have stated on this very forum as unethical business practices. If it takes 10 minutes... it is a worthwhile 10 minutes if someone finally ends this fiasco. Too many have been wronged for this to continue unnoticed by the FTC and the AG of KS.

[fractal02]

I wish those wronged by BFL would simply work collectively as much as possible and put BFL's toes to the fire for what many customers have stated on this very forum as unethical business practices. If it takes 10 minutes... it is a worthwhile 10 minutes if someone finally ends this fiasco. Too many have been wronged for this to continue unnoticed by the FTC and the AG of KS.

You remind me a little bit this one ==>




Try, fail, try, fail, try, fail....every day...every post....sad 

We all know that between you and Josh it became a little personal.

Move on, make us some good DIY project, don't waste time with anger.
It's toxic.

[Bicknellski]

I wish those wronged by BFL would simply work collectively as much as possible and put BFL's toes to the fire for what many customers have stated on this very forum as unethical business practices. If it takes 10 minutes... it is a worthwhile 10 minutes if someone finally ends this fiasco. Too many have been wronged for this to continue unnoticed by the FTC and the AG of KS.

You remind me a little bit this one ==>




Try, fail, try, fail, try, fail....every day...every post....sad  

We all know that between you and Josh it became a little personal.

Move on, make us some good DIY project, don't waste time with anger.
It's toxic.

Ignored.

For every one person that 'supports' BFL in it's disinformation campaign a 100 new people are driven to action by BFL's abject failure to deliver products. 6 MONTHS BEHIND STILL?

Time to focus people. Don't let the BFL trolls sidetrack you report them to the AG and the FTC. There will be a critical mass and BFL will go down.

[fractal02]

Ignored.

[chsados]

I have posted a topic on how to file a FTC complaint against BFL on their illegal behavior regarding late shipments and refusing refunds.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319522.msg3419162#msg3419162

This takes less than 10 minutes and I encourage EVERYONE who has had problems with BFL to fill it out.  The more complaints filed the faster they will investigate them and put a stop to this nonsense.  If my above posts did not show that this is illegal behavior by BFL then follow my guide on the FTC web site and you will see that it indeed is a federal trade violation and they can get in massive trouble for this.  It's illegal and that's why you don't see other businesses behaving this way.

Should you still file if you payed in bitcoins?  How does this process work - how can you prove a bitcoin payment?  Show the blockchain transaction?

[darkmule]

Should you still file if you payed in bitcoins?  How does this process work - how can you prove a bitcoin payment?  Show the blockchain transaction?

I wouldn't bother getting into any lengthy explanations that will just make someone's eyes glaze over.  Just include any kind of dated order confirmation you got indicating (preferably) that they accepted whatever you paid for its current dollar value.

I'd only get into explanations of BTC if the agency actually asks for it or starts an investigation.  Otherwise you're just giving them one more reason to round-file your report.

[southerngentuk]

I have posted a topic on how to file a FTC complaint against BFL on their illegal behavior regarding late shipments and refusing refunds.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319522.msg3419162#msg3419162

This takes less than 10 minutes and I encourage EVERYONE who has had problems with BFL to fill it out.  The more complaints filed the faster they will investigate them and put a stop to this nonsense.  If my above posts did not show that this is illegal behavior by BFL then follow my guide on the FTC web site and you will see that it indeed is a federal trade violation and they can get in massive trouble for this.  It's illegal and that's why you don't see other businesses behaving this way.

Should you still file if you payed in bitcoins?  How does this process work - how can you prove a bitcoin payment?  Show the blockchain transaction?

I payed my upgrade in BTC. It still shows it as USD on my Invoice and account page.  It IS a USD transaction.

[the_remote]

I would definitely file it as a USD transaction.

I also posted this thread on Reddit and it also took off.  There have been at least dozens (or more) of confirmed trade violation complaints filed against BFL this weekend.

I imagine Josh will be getting a call from the FTC this week and I think he knows it.  He's gone completely silent in this thread and I imagine he's going to be in a lot of trouble.

If I were him I would move my operation out of the US to somewhere that doesn't have consumer protection laws against his widescale illegal activity regarding sales transactions and refunds.  As someone pointed out he may have to find somewhere like Somalia to operate like this without men in black showing up at his doorstep because you can't do business like this in virtually any western country.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1pat5e/how_to_file_a_ftc_complaint_against_bfls_illegal/

[mruiter]

I would definitely file it as a USD transaction.

I also posted this thread on Reddit and it also took off.  There have been at least dozens (or more) of confirmed trade violation complaints filed against BFL this weekend.

I imagine Josh will be getting a call from the FTC this week and I think he knows it.  He's gone completely silent in this thread and I imagine he's going to be in a lot of trouble.

If I were him I would move my operation out of the US to somewhere that doesn't have consumer protection laws against his widescale illegal activity regarding sales transactions and refunds.  As someone pointed out he may have to find somewhere like Somalia to operate like this without men in black showing up at his doorstep because you can't do business like this in virtually any western country.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1pat5e/how_to_file_a_ftc_complaint_against_bfls_illegal/

I Think Joshy is still looking up the 250usd Butterfly labs STOLE !!! from me!!

[Beans]

I'm surprised nobody has actually done this yet.  They sold a bunch of those minirigs for $20k+ and nobody can afford a lawyer to sue these guys?

That would require having something to actually sue for.  Piss poor internet lawyers aside, a real lawyer would tell you that you have no case.

Josh, stop being such a tool. There are plenty of legitimate claims to be made against Butterfly. Starting with refusing to refund or delivery products. Sometime in the future is not a acceptable delivery date.

[southerngentuk]

Josh, stop being such a tool. There are plenty of legitimate claims to be made against Butterfly. Starting with refusing to refund or delivery products. Sometime in the future is not a acceptable delivery date.

Ship Dates

    By law, a merchant should ship your order within the time stated in its ads or over the phone. If the merchant doesn't promise a time, you can expect it to ship your order within 30 days.
    The shipment "clock" begins when the merchant receives a "properly completed order." That includes your name, address and payment (check, money order or authorization to charge an existing credit account - whether the account is debited at that time or not).
    If the merchant doesn't promise a shipping time and you are applying for credit to pay for your purchase, the merchant has an additional 20 days (50 days total) to establish the account and ship the merchandise.
Delays

If the merchant is unable to ship within the promised time, it must notify you by mail, telephone, or email, give a revised shipping date and give you the chance to cancel for a full refund or accept the new shipping date. The merchant also must give you some way to exercise the cancellation option for free, for example, by supplying a prepaid reply card or staffing a toll-free telephone number.

    If you ignore the option notice, and the delay is 30 days or less, it's assumed that you accept the delay and are willing to wait for the merchandise.
    If you do not respond - and the delay is more than 30 days - the order must be canceled by the 30th day of the delay period and a full refund issued promptly.

If the merchant can't meet the revised shipping date, it must notify you again by mail, email or telephone and give you a new shipping date or cancel your order and give you a refund.

    The order will be canceled and a refund issued promptly unless you indicate by the revised shipping date that you are willing to wait.
    If you do not respond at all to the second notice, it's assumed that you are not willing to wait, and a full refund must be issued promptly.

Refunds

If you authorized a charge to your credit card account, the merchant must credit the account within one billing cycle - not give credit toward another purchase. If you pay by cash, check or money order, the merchant must mail you a refund within seven working days.

Come on Joshie, I want my refund. 

[Bicknellski]

I'm surprised nobody has actually done this yet.  They sold a bunch of those minirigs for $20k+ and nobody can afford a lawyer to sue these guys?

That would require having something to actually sue for.  Piss poor internet lawyers aside, a real lawyer would tell you that you have no case.

Josh, stop being such a tool. There are plenty of legitimate claims to be made against Butterfly. Starting with refusing to refund or delivery products. Sometime in the future is not a acceptable delivery date.

+1 Guy has lost the plot and spreading disinformation in an attempt to mitigate people making claims. People need to keep pressing BFL for refunds and reporting these issues to the FTC and the AG of KS.

[m3sSh3aD]

Squash that cockroach!

[klondike_bar]

Ignored.

ahahahahahahahah responding to an ignored post? You get the gold trollie award for that one

BFL deserves to be sued or have action brought against them by the FTC. The delays are unnacceptable and Inaba/Josh is the most abrasive personality on the forums, constantly mis-informing and insulting.

Im lucky paypal was able to refund me after 45 days (closer to 80 days) when i realised that the device i ordered in early june with a mid-september estimated delivery was actually coming no sooner then late october. (Now late-november seems to be the situation).

Id love to know how KNC shipped hundreds of units out in a few days (each one containing several of what is similar to the BFL board+heatsink assembly) and BFL seems incapable of averaging moe than a few dozen units a day.

If BFL had proper forum presence (ie: kicked inaba to the curb and put someone more positive in) I might have not demanded my refund, and been able to accept delays. but to have inaba call people idiots and ban CUSTOMERS from the BFL forums is insane.

[rnaodm]

I don't know if this has been done yet but I sent KCTV5 an email regarding BFL and their antics.

Butterfly Labs, A company in Overland Park Has been taking money for ASIC Bitcoin Miners and not shipping most of them.

They have preorders from almost a year ago, paid in full, that have had refunds requested and ignored.

They are still promising a two month ship date on some of their products which is a blatant lie and violates FTC regulations.

Many of the people BFL has lied to/scammed is preparing to go forward with legal actions and It would be amazing if KCTV could start an investigation on BFL

Bitcoin is always in the media, but no one seems to be talking about the company blatantly breaking the law "selling" bitcoin mining hardware.

Thank you

[joeventura]

I don't know if this has been done yet but I sent KCTV5 an email regarding BFL and their antics.

Butterfly Labs, A company in Overland Park Has been taking money for ASIC Bitcoin Miners and not shipping most of them.

They have preorders from almost a year ago, paid in full, that have had refunds requested and ignored.

They are still promising a two month ship date on some of their products which is a blatant lie and violates FTC regulations.

Many of the people BFL has lied to/scammed is preparing to go forward with legal actions and It would be amazing if KCTV could start an investigation on BFL

Bitcoin is always in the media, but no one seems to be talking about the company blatantly breaking the law "selling" bitcoin mining hardware.

Thank you

Response from KCTV5:

What the hell is a ASIC Bitcoin Miner??

Try explaining it like you would to your mother.

[rnaodm]

Response from KCTV5:

What the hell is a ASIC Bitcoin Miner??

Try explaining it like you would to your mother.

Eh im sure they have interns who research technical aspects they might not understand.