Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action

[k9quaint]

Hey bcp, that's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that a US company, paid in US dollars, has no legal right to deny a refund before a delivery has taken place. If you ask for your money back, you're supposed to get it. They don't give it to you, you can sue them. How hard is this to understand?

If one was ordering goods from a shack somewhere in a shady part of Asia and paid in BTC I'd agree with the notion "win some, lose some" but the whole point of ordering from a US company and their huge price premium over other companies is some peace of mind that, if necessary, they can be held to account.

I've already been down this road and none of you like the answers I give you.  There was a chance at getting a refund back in May 2013, ...
<nonsense redacted>

BFL cannot ever deny a refund for product that has not shipped. However, BFL has systematically denied refunds (even during the time frame mentioned).  Most people who got refunds did so by badgering Paypal or their credit card companies.

BCP19 has too much ego to admit that he has been white knighting a company who ripped him off (along with several hundred other consumers).

All the plaintiff need do is demonstrate how much BTC a device in the first batch of Avalon mined to demonstrate potential earnings lost. BFL was to deliver in 3 batches, the first batch would have mined a mint had it been delivered on time (or anywhere near it).

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[Unacceptable]

Hey bcp, that's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that a US company, paid in US dollars, has no legal right to deny a refund before a delivery has taken place. If you ask for your money back, you're supposed to get it. They don't give it to you, you can sue them. How hard is this to understand?

If one was ordering goods from a shack somewhere in a shady part of Asia and paid in BTC I'd agree with the notion "win some, lose some" but the whole point of ordering from a US company and their huge price premium over other companies is some peace of mind that, if necessary, they can be held to account.

I've already been down this road and none of you like the answers I give you.  There was a chance at getting a refund back in May 2013, ...
<nonsense redacted>

BFL cannot ever deny a refund for product that has not shipped. However, BFL has systematically denied refunds (even during the time frame mentioned).  Most people who got refunds did so by badgering Paypal or their credit card companies.

BCP19 has too much ego to admit that he has been white knighting a company who ripped him off (along with several hundred other consumers).

All the plaintiff need do is demonstrate how much BTC a device in the first batch of Avalon mined to demonstrate potential earnings lost. BFL was to deliver in 3 batches, the first batch would have mined a mint had it been delivered on time (or anywhere near it).

Thank you,bcp19 WILL say otherwise.....he's got Josh's hand up his ass though 

[Fiyasko]

Any update on how this is going?

[Evan]

If you are doing this please let me know I have some additional issues that might include constitute US Postal Mail fraud on behalf of BF Labs.

[Bicknellski]

Mail fraud... tsk tsk BFL.

[Fiyasko]

Mail fraud... tsk tsk BFL.

Yup, That's their favorite, and yet nobody has stopped them yet? Could someone elaborate on why BFL is getting away with all of their horrible business practice's and cons?
"SHIPPING NEXT MONTH, PRE-ORDER NOW!, PRODUCTS ARE IN FINAL STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT!" x7
When did that "final stage" product get shipped? Uhh Never, They never managed to create what they said they would
When did The final stage product get shipped to an average customer? About nine months.
BFL Conned people into being investors with no return, those "pre-orders" for nearly finished devices were sold under false advertising
Nothing was in a final stage of development, they didn't even have proof of a profuct untill four months from first advertisements
The product they finally shipped missed all specifications by almost 300%, Including SIZE and heat generated, power usage, etc

THEY HAD NOTHING WHEN PEOPLE PAID FOR A PRE-ORDER of a "final development stage" bitcoin ASIC device

[darkmule]

Yup, That's their favorite, and yet nobody has stopped them yet? Could someone elaborate on why BFL is getting away with all of their horrible business practice's and cons?

Because they're kind of lurking in an ambiguous area where their failure to deliver can be seen as just a breach of contract rather than fraud, so the criminal authorities aren't doing anything about it.  Also, as a breach of contract, you aren't likely to get attorney fees, so no lawyers are really swarming to get involved.  And the legal fees for pursuing it are (except for a few of the bigger fish) not likely worth what is usually going to be a small claim.

There's the class action issue, too, but it's tough to argue everyone subjected to BFL's delays has been harmed in the same way.

So this is the kind of questionable operation someone might commit who was inclined toward dishonesty but doesn't want to go back to prison.

[emsjvh]

did anyone in this thread actually attempt to sue or just wrote angry responses/emails?
lol

[Bicknellski]

did anyone in this thread actually attempt to sue or just wrote angry responses/emails?
lol

http://www.woodlaw.com/cases/butterfly-labs-and-bf-labs-inc-bitcoin-miners

Ya some people did. Join them.

[joeventura]

did anyone in this thread actually attempt to sue or just wrote angry responses/emails?
lol

http://www.woodlaw.com/cases/butterfly-labs-and-bf-labs-inc-bitcoin-miners

Ya some people did. Join them.

I have applied to be part of the class action.

[emsjvh]

I'm thinking about joining however I'm not sure I can be of help since my order was a pre-order.

[Bicknellski]

I'm thinking about joining however I'm not sure I can be of help since my order was a pre-order.

They are gathering info right now on that aspect. Check out the link and get in contact with them.

We are investigating the marketing and advertising practices of the company BF Labs, Inc., which does business under the name "Butterfly Labs". We have received reports that Butterfly Labs, based in Leawood, Kansas, has accepted orders and full pre-payments from consumers for Bitcoin mining hardware, yet failed to deliver the specialized equipment as promised.

[xingqiaoyin]

Anyone care to elaborate on the impact of class-action VS regular lawsuit ?
Usually i heard of class-action against big corporations.
What is this going to achieve ? What's the target ?

[Bicknellski]

Anyone care to elaborate on the impact of class-action VS regular lawsuit ?
Usually i heard of class-action against big corporations.
What is this going to achieve ? What's the target ?

http://www.woodlaw.com/sites/default/files/casedocs/2014-04-04%20Complaint.pdf <-- read this cover to cover and in particular from point 54 onwards.

Class Action Allegations

54. Plaintiffs bring this action on their own behalf and on behalf of a class of
all persons similarly situated, pursuant to Rule 23(a) and Rule 23(b)(3). The Plaintiff
Class consists of all persons who pre-paid Defendant for Bitcoin mining equipment.

55. The Plaintiff Class satisfies all of the prerequisites stated in Rule 23(a):
(a) The class is so numerous that joinder of all members would be
impractical. Upon information and belief, members of the class
number in the thousands. The number of class members can be
identified from Defendant’s records.

56. Further, the prosecution of separate actions by individual members of the
class would create a risk of inconsistent or varying adjudications with respect to
individual members of the class, which would establish incompatible standards of
conduct for the party opposing the class.

Then I suggest asking those questions in legal https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=74.0 where you might get a much better answer than you could here.

[joeventura]

I'm thinking about joining however I'm not sure I can be of help since my order was a pre-order.

I joined because I requested a refund and was formally denied.

I'm getting paid.