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Author Topic: Begging for merit  (Read 500 times)
nullius
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February 01, 2018, 04:31:28 PM
Merited by actmyname (1)
 #21

I think begging for merit is demeaning, and not something that members should do.
I've started to ignore members who beg for merit in a post. This means that I can't see their posts now or in the future, and I will not be able to award them sMerits regardless of the quality of their posting.

Begging for merit is revolting, reprehensible.  In part, it can be addressed through the forum’s technical features as you just said, or as hilariousetc said:

Begging for merit should be treated the same as begging for bitcoin and either threads trashed or posts removed,

(Thanks; I will keep that in mind with my trigger finger on the “Report to moderator” button.)  ...or, as Lauda said:

Begging for merit should be treated as attempting to trust farm. Therefore, those begging for merit should be permanently neg. rated IMO.

However, begging for merit is a social problem; and social problems need social solutions.  Quoting part of what I myself said on the subject a few days ago:

Requests for merit must be declared extreme rudeness, a forum faux pas.  Such a thing is fit only for social opprobrium, derision, sneers, and shunning.

In most cultures, fishing for compliments is viewed as something between boorish and unthinkable.  Asking for merit is worse, because it may accrue monetary value due to signature campaigns.  It is like begging a professor for a top grade, instead of doing work worthy of earning a top grade.

By contrast, those who have something worthwhile to say will take pride in earning merit the normal way:  By making posts which others find valuable.  Whereas those who have nothing worthwhile to say, as such have nothing to add to the forum.

[...]

Make good posts, and people will notice.  Or shut up.

Thus, I find this idea meritorious (boldface added):

Begging for merit should actually just be banned outright. In fact, a name and shame thread so others can permablock them also would be something I would check on a regular basis.

If you find people begging for merit, trading merit, or farming merit, then you should name them, shame them!  Ridicule, insult, and humiliate them!  Make of them an object lesson not only to them, but also for all to see that such disgusting behaviour is NOT WELCOME HERE.

All functioning societies have both positive and negative feedback mechanisms for regulating members’ behaviour.  Here, the merit system itself is a positive feedback mechanism; and I believe it should stay that way.  (Much though I might sometimes wish to issue demerits, I also realize how such a thing would chill the expression of thoughtful but unpopular opinions.)  In the category of negative feedback mechanisms, shame and its sister shunning are the timeless classics which enforce the boundaries of social acceptability.  No community can long live without shame, just as no community can prosper without some basic notions of honour.

In a written medium, the pen is the sword.  Wield it wisely—and where needed, mercilessly.


I'm sad that I have to do this, but there seems to be a new trend developing - posters cut and paste an article, and then beg for merit for doing it.

Copypaste is already permaban actionable.  Problem solved!


I don't really like the concept of listing your posts for consideration by a merit faucet. If you are making good posts, and they aren't being noticed, then it means one or both of two things. The board or thread is clogged with rubbish, and that means we need more mods, or those who are designated merit faucets aren't reading the threads on the boards - if they stopped scavenging in the dead threads, and looked at the new ones, maybe that would help to solve this problem.

I am strictly opposed to those threads.  I urge the people making those giveaways to reconsider.  Awards of merit should and must be an organic process.

Here and elsewhere, I disagree with you about the question of awarding merit to old posts.  The archives of this forum contain a hidden library of knowledge, especially in the “Development & Technical Discussion” section.  Awarding merit to old posts helps highlight them; where the authors are still active, such belated recognition also has direct utility.  The first merit I awarded to any post older than a month or so was for the post which first brought me to fully realize the problems with DHTs, and why Bitcoin does not and will not use a DHT.  I could not exclude such classics from consideration for merit awards.

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February 01, 2018, 04:44:48 PM
 #22


Here and elsewhere, I disagree with you about the question of awarding merit to old posts.  The archives of this forum contain a hidden library of knowledge, especially in the “Development & Technical Discussion” section.  Awarding merit to old posts helps highlight them; where the authors are still active, such belated recognition also has direct utility.  The first merit I awarded to any post older than a month or so was for the post which first brought me to fully realize the problems with DHTs, and why Bitcoin does not and will not use a DHT.  I could not exclude such classics from consideration for merit awards.

As an abstract concept, I probably agree with you. However, you have to consider that merits and sMerits were created to solve a current problem, and that is the pollution and deterioration of the forum. To combat that you have to influence new posters to rebuild the forum. The past is the past, but we need to grasp the opportunities in the new future.

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February 01, 2018, 04:45:48 PM
 #23

The merit system is like an earthquake that shock everybody. Very big surprise this 2018. The result is very amazing. The emotions from everywhere arises that couldn't be stop as in the situation of shock. Begging for merit is a result in the condition as in the present. For me we couldn't blame those people who beg for merit they are just in a hurry to rank up. Probably the begging for merit will continue until everyone immune to this system.

So please give me merit.  Smiley  Cheesy  Grin

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February 01, 2018, 04:53:07 PM
 #24

Here you go then.



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February 01, 2018, 05:40:14 PM
Merited by Jet Cash (1)
 #25

The merit system is like an earthquake that shock everybody. Very big surprise this 2018. The result is very amazing. The emotions from everywhere arises that couldn't be stop as in the situation of shock. Begging for merit is a result in the condition as in the present. For me we couldn't blame those people who beg for merit they are just in a hurry to rank up. Probably the begging for merit will continue until everyone immune to this system.

So please give me merit.  Smiley  Cheesy  Grin

Anyone who gives you merit for this shit needs to be punched in the balls

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AllGoodNamesAreTaken
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February 01, 2018, 05:51:43 PM
 #26

What is merit? Huh
Am quite amazed you have a lot of activity but you dont know what merit is.Lol. I will just refer you to this original thread about the merit system to learn more about it.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.0

Cheers, did not really pay much attention to the account details.  Roll Eyes

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February 01, 2018, 05:54:48 PM
 #27

...Probably the begging for merit will continue until everyone immune to this system.

So please give me merit.  Smiley  Cheesy  Grin

Since the merit system still fresh , it require some time until all of non merit source spend all of this the rest of smerit.
From that moment, the forum will be not the old forum anymore but it has better quality that most of this people looking for


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February 01, 2018, 05:58:47 PM
 #28

Why are users begging for merit? To look on one side, it seems to look like farming. But there is an other side too. Have a look, most of the people who have high amounts of merits are the ones who are posting in meta, whilst hardly any one is giving merit to those who are posting in other discussions in other boards. Users are impatient on the fact that the merit system has just been introduced and they just want to rank up and repeat the process of signature abusal.

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February 01, 2018, 06:08:48 PM
 #29

I keep looking at the other boards, but I'm having trouble finding posts that I like. There isn't really a lot about Bitcoin that is fresh.

I'll start looking at bounties soon, and maybe there will be something there. I've got a fairly broad concept of "crypto bounty". I include the rise in the value of crypto domain names as part of crypto bounty for example.

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February 01, 2018, 06:13:15 PM
 #30

I keep looking at the other boards, but I'm having trouble finding posts that I like. There isn't really a lot about Bitcoin that is fresh.

I'll start looking at bounties soon, and maybe there will be something there. I've got a fairly broad concept of "crypto bounty". I include the rise in the value of crypto domain names as part of crypto bounty for example.
Because it's hard to find a good post in the garbage can. Start any thread, users start abusing that thread by shitposting random stuff.
To be honest Bounties aren't going to help either. They just make things from bad to worse.

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February 01, 2018, 06:17:58 PM
 #31

I think these people will soon realize that there is no benefit of such behavior. Instead of begging, they should spend that time creating quality posts or at least learning from other senior members here.
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February 01, 2018, 06:43:52 PM
 #32

I think begging for merit is demeaning, and not something that members should do. I've started to ignore members who beg for merit in a post.

Where do you draw the line on begging? Does someone have to explicitly say "give me merit!" or could they be complaining about the merit system and sharing their "woe is me" story about how they were once so close to the next rank and now have to earn 100s of merit to get there?

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2828412.msg29000145#msg29000145

Shouldn't you ignore anyone responding to those requests for merit, be it directly or through as sob story?

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February 01, 2018, 06:54:51 PM
 #33

I wasn't begging for merit in that post, I was just illustrating the fact that all ranks were affected by the change. If you look at some of my other posts, you will see that I state that there is really no significant difference between Hero and Legendary. Even in the sig programmes that I have looked at, most seem to have the same rate for both ranks. I have been awarded some merit points, and these have generated some sMerit which I try to pass on, but I seem to be spending too much time on this, so I may have to back off for a while.

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February 01, 2018, 07:00:46 PM
 #34

In some cases users might have given quality posts and being unlucky doesn't get any merit. In such cases if they quote with the particular post through the merit giveaway thread can get few merit. In this case we can't describe it to be begging, it is all about the understanding of user about merit system.

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February 01, 2018, 07:13:12 PM
 #35

Why are users begging for merit? To look on one side, it seems to look like farming. But there is an other side too. Have a look, most of the people who have high amounts of merits are the ones who are posting in meta, whilst hardly any one is giving merit to those who are posting in other discussions in other boards. Users are impatient on the fact that the merit system has just been introduced and they just want to rank up and repeat the process of signature abusal.

I have also noticed this and I think the admin needs to do something about this. There should be some limit on sending merits for posts in meta.

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February 01, 2018, 07:13:43 PM
 #36

Begging for merit should be treated the same as begging for bitcoin and either threads trashed or posts removed,

(Thanks; I will keep that in mind with my trigger finger on the “Report to moderator” button.)  ...or, as Lauda said:

Begging for merit should be treated as attempting to trust farm. Therefore, those begging for merit should be permanently neg. rated IMO.

However, begging for merit is a social problem; and social problems need social solutions.  Quoting part of what I myself said on the subject a few days ago:

Requests for merit must be declared extreme rudeness, a forum faux pas.  Such a thing is fit only for social opprobrium, derision, sneers, and shunning.

In most cultures, fishing for compliments is viewed as something between boorish and unthinkable.  Asking for merit is worse, because it may accrue monetary value due to signature campaigns.  It is like begging a professor for a top grade, instead of doing work worthy of earning a top grade.

By contrast, those who have something worthwhile to say will take pride in earning merit the normal way:  By making posts which others find valuable.  Whereas those who have nothing worthwhile to say, as such have nothing to add to the forum.

[...]

Make good posts, and people will notice.  Or shut up.
I think that the problem should be tackled from both ends: moderation and the trust system. Whenever someone begs for merit points, their post should be archived, removed and subsequently they should be tagged. The same should be applied for sales (although disallowed, it is unclear whether and what kind of ban this will result it), and a combination of both measures should be much more effective.

I keep looking at the other boards, but I'm having trouble finding posts that I like. There isn't really a lot about Bitcoin that is fresh.

I'll start looking at bounties soon, and maybe there will be something there. I've got a fairly broad concept of "crypto bounty". I include the rise in the value of crypto domain names as part of crypto bounty for example.
Most boards are mostly filled with shitposts. You are just going to waste your time looking.

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February 01, 2018, 07:31:08 PM
 #37

Begging for merit should be treated the same as begging for bitcoin and either threads trashed or posts removed, though I suppose in these circumstances the offending begging part could just be edited out by staff.
Begging for merit should be treated as attempting to trust farm. Therefore, those begging for merit should be permanently neg. rated IMO.

However, theymos might have a different perspective regarding asking/begging for merit.

Do not beg for merit excessively.

But excessive begging is another thing.

My point is, is it really justifiable to tag people asking/begging for merit when theymos allows this but to the extent of not begging just like a desperate beggar?





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nullius
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February 01, 2018, 07:41:18 PM
Merited by Foxpup (2), pugman (1), actmyname (1)
 #38

[...]  The archives of this forum contain a hidden library of knowledge, especially in the “Development & Technical Discussion” section.  Awarding merit to old posts helps highlight them; where the authors are still active, such belated recognition also has direct utility.  [...]

As an abstract concept, I probably agree with you. However, you have to consider that merits and sMerits were created to solve a current problem, and that is the pollution and deterioration of the forum. To combat that you have to influence new posters to rebuild the forum. The past is the past, but we need to grasp the opportunities in the new future.

There was recently a discussion of how even some Hero Members were newly learning Bitcoin history due to the awarding of merit to Laszlo (inactive account) for the famous pizza post.  Amidst that, and in agreement with it, I made an impassioned plea to bring all the old technical discussion gems to the surface—and “perhaps even slowly revive the forum to those glory days!”

For my part, those archival posts represent the forum I wish I could now experience.  Seizing the moment when people are fired up about the merit system itself, I thought it might be an opportunity to induce people to read those old posts—to interact with them, in a way—to be inspired by them, as I am.  Broken windows and spammy garbage posts are infectious to neighbourhoods.  I’d hoped that superlative quality would be, too.

Of course, that post of mine seems to have been mostly ignored.  You may be right.  I’ll have to think about it.

I keep looking at the other boards, but I'm having trouble finding posts that I like. There isn't really a lot about Bitcoin that is fresh.

Sure there is!  Of course, there’s much difference between Bitcoin having fresh stuff, and the Bitcoin Forum having fresh stuff.

As to the latter, I really think it depends on your interests.  I rarely go anywhere besides Development & Technical Discussion and Meta.  On the development forum, the S/N ratio is disappointing but passable; of course, the real action is on bitcoin-dev (a strictly moderated list) and Github.  I’ve been intending to explore other forums; but last I really tried, I found myself wading from one cesspool to another, and promptly gave up.  I hope the merits system will improve the situation.


So please give me merit.  Smiley  Cheesy  Grin

FOR SHAME.  I actually did once award merit to someone who begged me for it.  That person did not need it, was obviously not really seeking it, pulled it off in a genuinely ironic manner amidst witty discussion—and did it in Latin.  By contrast, you are a pathetic freak.  There’s no room for you here:  This village has enough idiots.  *plonk*

Anyone who gives you merit for this shit needs to be punched in the balls

...whilst locked in a pillory, being shamed and pelted with rotten vegetables.

As trust is transitive, so is shame.  Giving merit for utter trash is an antivoucher which should operate as the precise inverse of vouching.


Have a look, most of the people who have high amounts of merits are the ones who are posting in meta, whilst hardly any one is giving merit to those who are posting in other discussions in other boards.

I am a living counterexample to that statement.  The strict majority (78/151 = 51.7%) of the merit I have thus far received was in “Development & Technical Discussion”, plus 1/151 = 0.00662% in “Bitcoin Discussion”.  If you exclude the +50 I got from some whackjob when I insulted him in Meta (an historic forum first!), the current proportion I have received outside Meta rises to 78.2% (78/101).

Those who who complain about the merit system either aren’t smart, or aren’t working hard on their posts—or both.  Some of my best posts take hours to write, edit, proofread, gather links for, etc.  I expended the level of effort in December.  (I will let my post history speak for me as to smarts.)  You will understand if I take a very dim view of the whiners.

Users are impatient on the fact that the merit system has just been introduced and they just want to rank up and repeat the process of signature abusal.

...which is why we need the merit system:  Those who are now screaming in pain are precisely those who so should be.


Where do you draw the line on begging? Does someone have to explicitly say "give me merit!" or could they be complaining about the merit system and sharing their "woe is me" story about how they were once so close to the next rank and now have to earn 100s of merit to get there?

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2828412.msg29000145#msg29000145

Shouldn't you ignore anyone responding to those requests for merit, be it directly or through as sob story?

Touché.  (Said by me because I gave +1 to that post.)

(Aside, I think that the merit threshold for achieving Legendary status should be drastically raised—at least doubled or trebled.  Some back-of-the-envelope calculations show that reaching the current merit threshold within the time needed to accrue requisite activity is far too easy; whereas attaining the top rank of anything should be disproportionately difficult.  Nevertheless, I tend to sympathize with decent posters who were this close to the lower activity bound.)


I think that the problem should be tackled from both ends: moderation and the trust system. Whenever someone begs for merit points, their post should be archived, removed and subsequently they should be tagged. The same should be applied for sales (although disallowed, it is unclear whether and what kind of ban this will result it), and a combination of both measures should be much more effective.

I like your approach.  Consider report-and-tag to be my new policy.  I’d still suggest also public shaming—but only occasionally, where appropriate.  That generates noise, just as any other reply to spam.  I think that it’s certainly appropriate to make a public example for others, when somebody begs for merit in a thread condemning merit-begging.

Most boards are mostly filled with shitposts. You are just going to waste your time looking.

Thought I just had:  I sometimes find interesting threads by looking at the post history of someone whose posts I like.  Perhaps it would be wise to keep track of where quality posters spend their time—a sort of benign quasi-stalking.


Begging for merit should be treated as attempting to trust farm. Therefore, those begging for merit should be permanently neg. rated IMO.

However, theymos might have a different perspective regarding asking/begging for merit.

Do not beg for merit excessively.

But excessive begging is another thing.

My point is, is it really justifiable to tag people asking/begging for merit when theymos allows this but to the extent of not begging just like a desperate beggar?

Earlier on this thread, I cut this part of my self-quote for brevity:

Do not beg for merit excessively.

Code:
s/excessively/at all—ever/

I disagree with theymos here.  As I said, asking for merit is akin to a student asking a professor for an A.  Lauda is right:  Begging for merit is inchoate trust farming, by definition.  It is solicitation of corrupted approval.  It poisons the whole system.  It must be condemned unequivocally.

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February 01, 2018, 07:43:57 PM
 #39


My point is, is it really justifiable to tag people asking/begging for merit when theymos allows this but to the extent of not begging just like a desperate beggar?

I'm not tagging them, I'm just ignoring them. I'm not a mod, or an admin, or a trust arbiter, or even a merit faucet, so it will probably make little difference to their career on Bitcoin Talk. However, it does make it easier for me to scan threads. Smiley

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February 01, 2018, 08:23:49 PM
 #40

I think that the problem should be tackled from both ends: moderation and the trust system. Whenever someone begs for merit points, their post should be archived, removed and subsequently they should be tagged. The same should be applied for sales (although disallowed, it is unclear whether and what kind of ban this will result it), and a combination of both measures should be much more effective.

I like your approach.  Consider report-and-tag to be my new policy.

And... done!  From the trust page for #1443762 “lovepale”:


Also reported to moderators with the message:  “Ipso facto merit farming:  Begged for merit.  Flagrantly.  Amidst a discussion of why begging for merit is a reprehensible abuse of the system, nuke on sight.”

Let this be made an example.


I'm not tagging them, I'm just ignoring them. I'm not a mod, or an admin, or a trust arbiter, or even a merit faucet, so it will probably make little difference to their career on Bitcoin Talk. However, it does make it easier for me to scan threads. :)

I know my tagging will have little direct effect at present, other than sending a crystal-clear message.  But it’s important to establish the precedent for declaring merit-beggars untrustworthy.  That, they are!  I hope to see DT members doing same, which will really have some bite.

As for moderation, I’m not a mod, either; but hereto (not including this report), I “have reported 158 posts with 100% accuracy”.  Mods need people to help them clean up the garbage.  By making earlier methods of spamming/farming unprofitable and thus stemming the flow of garbage at its source, the merit system should ultimately result in less garbage to begin with.  The merit system must not be corrupted.

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