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Author Topic: bustabit – The original crash game  (Read 54448 times)
devans
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September 20, 2019, 10:42:52 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4), malevolent (3), GamblingSiteFinder (1)
 #721

How will you react to foreign governments requesting information about users accessing your website from foreign IP addresses?
Such requests would be reviewed by our lawyers who would advise us on a case-by-case basis. Like any business, bustabit is obligated to comply with lawful court orders of course.

Are you planning on using any 3rd party companies for KYCing of your users?
No, KYC checks are so rarely required that that's not worth it. bustabit's default assumption for any given user is that they are not prohibited from using bustabit. A KYC check is only necessary if I have a specific reason to believe that someone is prohibited from using bustabit, e.g. if they themselves claim they are underage in chat. It's worth noting that due to the prevalence of VPNs, accessing bustabit from an IP address in a prohibited jurisdiction is not sufficient to trigger a KYC check.

How long do you store user logs (IP addresses, user agents, deposit and withdrawal information) and private information used to confirm age/citizenship/residence? Can a user request the deletion of their data earlier?
Currently connection logs, deposit histories and withdrawal histories are stored indefinitely. Information collected to confirm the user's age, citizenship and/or residency is exclusively used for that purpose, is deleted immediately afterwards and is not passed on to any third parties.

Is it actually illegal to gamble and invest bitcoins in casino bankroll in the prohibited countries ("Aruba, Australia, Curaçao, France, Netherlands, Sint Maarten, United States of America")?
I can't speak to the legality of gambling or investing Bitcoin in any of these jurisdictions. bustabit excludes users from these jurisdictions both from playing and investing not because it's illegal there (it may or may not be) but because our gaming license requires it. Conversely, a country not being on that list doesn't mean that online gambling is legal there (again, it may or may not be). Ultimately it's up to the user to ensure that they always complies with their local laws.

What constitutes inactivity? Is logging in okay, or do wagers need to be placed?
Signing in or connecting to the site while already signed in is all that's necessary for an account to be considered active. You don't need to wager, chat or do anything else. It goes without saying that bustabit will never delete dormant accounts before making a best effort to contact the owner first.

Quote
All funds of deleted dormant accounts including their balance and any bankroll investments are forfeited by the user and assumed by the operator.

What happens with the bankroll investment in this case, is it dispersed among other bankrollers?
That's probably how I'd handle it since it seems like the simplest solution on a technical level (doesn't require any bankroll operations). However, since that's still in the distant future I can't commit to a firm answer yet. At some point in the future I would like to start recycling accounts that are clearly unused and making their user names available again, but I don't have any specific plans regarding that yet.

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bustadice – Fast-paced bustabit-like dice with no wager limit
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September 20, 2019, 11:05:08 PM
Last edit: September 20, 2019, 11:15:39 PM by malevolent
 #722

Thanks for answering.

From a privacy perspective it'd still be nice if the user could choose to delete at least some of the information stored related to their account after some amount of time has passed.

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September 20, 2019, 11:14:20 PM
 #723

There are problems however with what you pointed out regarding the possible need for KYC. I have a personal policy of never sending my ID to websites but those that do need to be very careful because nobody can say for sure what will happen to that data.

Not at all saying that Bustabit/Bustadice will do this but what happens if a user signs up and plays regularly, then after a few months wins a "big" amount but is blocked from withdrawing the funds unless KYC is sent. If it is a user with my principles that refuses to send KYC to any entity then what will happen to those funds?

We all know KYC has been used as an excuse by exchanges, gaming websites, bounty managers and more just as a ploy to either delay or refuse releasing funds. Again, not saying Bustabit/Bustadice will do it but others have done it and others are doing it.

Furthermore, with this update about terms and conditions more needs to be done such adding GDPR for European users and cookie notification.

Since when did Apis N.V. (the Government of Curacao licensed company) come in to existence? Maybe the terms and conditions were created and added after the licence was received and is a direct result of it.
KYC checks are driven solely by the legal requirements imposed on bustabit and we aren't obligated to perform a KYC check just because someone won a large amount. As I mentioned in my previous post, a KYC check is only necessary if there is a specific and plausible reason to believe that a user is prohibited from using bustabit, e.g. if they themselves claim they are underage.

If a user refuses or fails a KYC check we may restrict their account from further using the site, i.e. betting, investing and chatting, and demand that they withdraw their funds and refrain from using bustabit going forwards. Outside of extreme edge cases like being compelled to by a court order, bustabit will never prevent users from accessing their funds.

Apis N.V. was formally incorporated in January 2019. Whether and to what extent the GDPR applies to bustabit is still unclear.

bustabit – The original crash game
bustadice – Fast-paced bustabit-like dice with no wager limit
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September 20, 2019, 11:42:56 PM
 #724

There are problems however with what you pointed out regarding the possible need for KYC. I have a personal policy of never sending my ID to websites but those that do need to be very careful because nobody can say for sure what will happen to that data.

Not at all saying that Bustabit/Bustadice will do this but what happens if a user signs up and plays regularly, then after a few months wins a "big" amount but is blocked from withdrawing the funds unless KYC is sent. If it is a user with my principles that refuses to send KYC to any entity then what will happen to those funds?

We all know KYC has been used as an excuse by exchanges, gaming websites, bounty managers and more just as a ploy to either delay or refuse releasing funds. Again, not saying Bustabit/Bustadice will do it but others have done it and others are doing it.

Furthermore, with this update about terms and conditions more needs to be done such adding GDPR for European users and cookie notification.

Since when did Apis N.V. (the Government of Curacao licensed company) come in to existence? Maybe the terms and conditions were created and added after the licence was received and is a direct result of it.
KYC checks are driven solely by the legal requirements imposed on bustabit and we aren't obligated to perform a KYC check just because someone won a large amount. As I mentioned in my previous post, a KYC check is only necessary if there is a specific and plausible reason to believe that a user is prohibited from using bustabit, e.g. if they themselves claim they are underage.
I read the previous post, thank you.

Quote
If a user refuses or fails a KYC check we may restrict their account from further using the site, i.e. betting, investing and chatting, and demand that they withdraw their funds and refrain from using bustabit going forwards. Outside of extreme edge cases like being compelled to by a court order, bustabit will never prevent users from accessing their funds.
That part is great to read. Scam exchanges and scam gaming sites have used KYC as a ploy to freeze and effectively confiscate funds. Sadly selective scamming is reaching almost epidemic proportions now and shows no sign of letting up.

In the event where KYC becomes an issue and the user refuses to send it and you allow users to withdraw their before closing their account then it is an excellent way forward and only contributes further to the good standing and good reputation you have within the community.

Quote
Apis N.V. was formally incorporated in January 2019. Whether and to what extent the GDPR applies to bustabit is still unclear.
My understanding is that GDPR is compulsory on websites that serve residents of the European Union but enforcing that is another matter.

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September 20, 2019, 11:59:58 PM
Last edit: September 21, 2019, 12:11:20 AM by malevolent
 #725

Quote
Apis N.V. was formally incorporated in January 2019. Whether and to what extent the GDPR applies to bustabit is still unclear.
My understanding is that GDPR is compulsory on websites that serve residents of the European Union but enforcing that is another matter.

I think it's more complicated than that, bustabit might quailfy for an exemption/exception, they don't store much data to begin with and (I think) they aren't targeting nationals of any specific EU/EEA countries. But IANAL, maybe EU courts must make enough rulings for things to clarify.

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September 21, 2019, 01:08:10 AM
Last edit: September 21, 2019, 08:51:12 AM by JollyGood
 #726

Quote
Apis N.V. was formally incorporated in January 2019. Whether and to what extent the GDPR applies to bustabit is still unclear.
My understanding is that GDPR is compulsory on websites that serve residents of the European Union but enforcing that is another matter.

I think it's more complicated than that, bustabit might quailfy for an exemption/exception, they don't store much data to begin with and (I think) they aren't targeting nationals of any specific EU/EEA countries. But IANAL, maybe EU courts must make enough rulings for things to clarify.

Thank you for the post.

There might be a way websites serving EU citizens would not need to comply with GDPR but as of yet I have not seen cases and as you rightly pointed out it might be more complicated than the manner in which I put it. Some clarity on legality would be appreciated by users who might read this post.

From what I recall, any website that stores any information on EU citizens that reside inside the EU must comply. So for example an EU citizen holding a passport from any EU country but living outside the EU would not be covered but the hundreds of millions living within the EU member states are covered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation
https://gdpr.eu/checklist/
https://www.csoonline.com/article/3202771/general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr-requirements-deadlines-and-facts.html

And this is the golden rule so far as I could remember: "Any company that stores or processes personal information about EU citizens within EU states must comply with the GDPR, even if they do not have a business presence within the EU"

As excellent as both Bustadice and Bustabit are and as highly in regard as the community hold its owner, complying with GDPR and adding a cookie notification would only enhance credibility to those not familiar with the background of the websites. Adding those would not take anything away from the website or the user experience so maybe it is worth the OP thinking about.

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September 21, 2019, 10:51:20 AM
 #727

I have not checked the entire topic but I just saw the message that users from certain countries are prohibited to use the service.

I'm from the Netherlands so I'm not allowed to use this service. Does this also apply to investing? I have been an investor since February but never actually gambled on this site.

Does this mean I should withdraw all my funds? Is there any chance my account will be locked because I'm a Dutch resident?

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September 21, 2019, 01:35:44 PM
 #728

I'm from the Netherlands so I'm not allowed to use this service. Does this also apply to investing?
According to the new ToS, yes it does:
Quote
Continued use of the service implies consent to the new terms of service. For this purpose, remaining invested in the bankroll is considered use of the service.

Does this mean I should withdraw all my funds? Is there any chance my account will be locked because I'm a Dutch resident?
It seems to me the chance is low, at least for now, quoting devans:
Quote
KYC check is only necessary if I have a specific reason to believe that someone is prohibited from using bustabit, e.g. if they themselves claim they are underage in chat. It's worth noting that due to the prevalence of VPNs, accessing bustabit from an IP address in a prohibited jurisdiction is not sufficient to trigger a KYC check.
Quote
If a user refuses or fails a KYC check we may restrict their account from further using the site, i.e. betting, investing and chatting, and demand that they withdraw their funds and refrain from using bustabit going forwards. Outside of extreme edge cases like being compelled to by a court order, bustabit will never prevent users from accessing their funds.
And again from the ToS:
Quote
The operator not insisting on one of his rights granted by these terms of service in one or more specific instances shall not preempt the operator from making use of this right in the future

They're a legal business with a gambling license and unfortunately there are certain requirements imposed on them if they want to keep the license. I think these requirements aren't new but they might not have previously been enforced by the licensing authority.



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September 21, 2019, 01:48:50 PM
 #729

I see daily wagered dropping lately. Maybe running some kind of promotion could be worth it.
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September 21, 2019, 02:05:35 PM
 #730

There might be a way websites serving EU citizens would not need to comply with GDPR but as of yet I have not seen cases and as you rightly pointed out it might be more complicated than the manner in which I put it. Some clarity on legality would be appreciated by users who might read this post.

From what I recall, any website that stores any information on EU citizens that reside inside the EU must comply. So for example an EU citizen holding a passport from any EU country but living outside the EU would not be covered but the hundreds of millions living within the EU member states are covered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation
https://gdpr.eu/checklist/
https://www.csoonline.com/article/3202771/general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr-requirements-deadlines-and-facts.html

And this is the golden rule so far as I could remember: "Any company that stores or processes personal information about EU citizens within EU states must comply with the GDPR, even if they do not have a business presence within the EU"

As excellent as both Bustadice and Bustabit are and as highly in regard as the community hold its owner, complying with GDPR and adding a cookie notification would only enhance credibility to those not familiar with the background of the websites. Adding those would not take anything away from the website or the user experience so maybe it is worth the OP thinking about.
The real trick is, what is the "personal information" is regarding? For example, is storing the emails and passwords attached to a username considered a personal information? Does it have to be KYC? If not then does bustabit requires KYC by the law so they have to ask for it, if they have to ask for it then does that mean they have to comply with GDPR?

This goes round and round between each other, I think since they are not asking for KYC as far as I know, they don't have to comply with other laws as well, as long as they are legit and not stealing money (which we all know they don't) there is no need to comply with any law regarding certain one area for now, maybe ban USA gamblers because it is illegal for them but all rest (including EU) seems fine so far.

.
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September 23, 2019, 05:19:46 PM
 #731

Hi, would like this clarified please:

I am from the USA and login from exclusively the USA. Under the new rules, can Devans state that funds under no circumstances will funds be seized/forfeited relating to being a US resident and/or logging in from the USA unless directed to by the US government?

And, assuming the above is answered favorably, will US residents always be able to access the site through US ips?
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September 23, 2019, 08:23:47 PM
 #732

While I don't like the changes, I understand that they needed to be made.  Thank you for the detailed responses @Devans and an even bigger thank you for just being upfront and honest with us.

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September 23, 2019, 09:07:17 PM
 #733

I might be wrong here (I had trouble finding the old ToS), but I'm pretty sure the only new term is actually that about accounts being recycled after 2 years of no use. I don't think BaB has ever allowed US users (and other places where online gambling is illegal) and has always dealt with it by asking them to withdraw their balance and refrain from using it in the future. I think just the new ToS makes it a bit clearer (like right at the top, instead of buried in the middle).

Check out gamblingsitefinder.com for a decent list/rankings of crypto casinos. Note: I have no affiliation or interest in it, and don't even agree with all the rankings ... but it's the only uncorrupted review site I'm aware of.
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September 23, 2019, 09:44:22 PM
 #734

I might be wrong here (I had trouble finding the old ToS), but I'm pretty sure the only new term is actually that about accounts being recycled after 2 years of no use. I don't think BaB has ever allowed US users (and other places where online gambling is illegal) and has always dealt with it by asking them to withdraw their balance and refrain from using it in the future. I think just the new ToS makes it a bit clearer (like right at the top, instead of buried in the middle).

I'd like this clarified by Devans, specifically about Bustadice.
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September 24, 2019, 05:35:34 AM
 #735

I don't remember there being any other ToS, either anywhere on the site or for new users (?), the one that popped-up on bustabit and bustadice is the first one I ever saw.

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September 24, 2019, 06:09:37 AM
 #736

I don't remember there being any other ToS, either anywhere on the site or for new users (?), the one that popped-up on bustabit and bustadice is the first one I ever saw.
 
I am pretty sure that I remember to register an account, there was something like  "I have read and agree to the <link>terms of service</link>". I think the popup we all just saw is for users who have agreed to the old ToS to let them know there's now a new one. I can't find an archive of the old ToS, but if my memory is correct the only substantial is the account recycling?

Since everyone is talking about ToS, the one thing I feel is missing is an official policy on how investors are exposed to things like mistakes/hacks. For instance, there was that bug in the API that allowed someone to find out the current-game multiplier and bustabit paid for it (150 btc?) instead of investors. Is that an official policy? Presumedly if the loss was too big, at some point bustabit couldn't/wouldn't be able to pay for it (as after all, the point of investors is to lower/eliminate risk). As an investor, it'd be nice to know if there's an official policy on handling situations like this.



Check out gamblingsitefinder.com for a decent list/rankings of crypto casinos. Note: I have no affiliation or interest in it, and don't even agree with all the rankings ... but it's the only uncorrupted review site I'm aware of.
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September 24, 2019, 06:45:54 AM
 #737

Hi, would like this clarified please:

I am from the USA and login from exclusively the USA. Under the new rules, can Devans state that funds under no circumstances will funds be seized/forfeited relating to being a US resident and/or logging in from the USA unless directed to by the US government?

And, assuming the above is answered favorably, will US residents always be able to access the site through US ips?


Correct, bustabit never has and never will seize users' funds unless it's legally compelled to by a lawful court order. The only minor correction is that bustabit complies with all lawful court orders, not just those from a user's country of residence.

That being said, since you are from a prohibited jurisdiction I'm afraid I have to ask you to withdraw your funds and stop using bustabit and bustadice.

bustabit – The original crash game
bustadice – Fast-paced bustabit-like dice with no wager limit
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September 24, 2019, 10:28:26 AM
 #738

Hi, would like this clarified please:

I am from the USA and login from exclusively the USA. Under the new rules, can Devans state that funds under no circumstances will funds be seized/forfeited relating to being a US resident and/or logging in from the USA unless directed to by the US government?

And, assuming the above is answered favorably, will US residents always be able to access the site through US ips?


Correct, bustabit never has and never will seize users' funds unless it's legally compelled to by a lawful court order. The only minor correction is that bustabit complies with all lawful court orders, not just those from a user's country of residence.

That being said, since you are from a prohibited jurisdiction I'm afraid I have to ask you to withdraw your funds and stop using bustabit and bustadice.


Thank you for the clarity.

Others have used those as excuses to selective scam users and leaving their funds in limbo but you have made it clear that is not the case with Bustabit/Bustadice.


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September 29, 2019, 05:45:28 PM
 #739

Effective immediately bustabit will charge the bankroll a 50% commission on future net profits instead of the previous 0.25% commission on all wagers. This will have the immediate effect of increasing the wager and profit limits for players while simultaneously decreasing variance for investors at the the expense of reducing their expected value.

Whenever the bankroll's profit exceeds its previous high point, bustabit will receive 50% of the profits beyond the high point. No commission is collected on profits below the high point. For example, say the bankroll's profit high point is 100 BTC, its current profit is 99 BTC and players combined lose a total of 4 BTC in a round. 3 BTC of that is net profit (exceeding the previous all-time high), so bustabit would receive 1.5 BTC and the remaining 2.5 BTC would go to the bankroll. The commission is charged in real time, so investors can continue to invest and divest whenever they like.

For players, nothing changes other than the wager and profit limits increasing by a third as mentioned above.

bustabit – The original crash game
bustadice – Fast-paced bustabit-like dice with no wager limit
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September 29, 2019, 06:08:03 PM
Last edit: October 05, 2019, 06:10:26 PM by Pali
 #740

Effective immediately bustabit will charge the bankroll a 50% commission on future net profits instead of the previous 0.25% commission on all wagers. This will have the immediate effect of increasing the wager and profit limits for players while simultaneously decreasing variance for investors at the the expense of reducing their expected value.

Whenever the bankroll's profit exceeds its previous high point, bustabit will receive 50% of the profits beyond the high point. No commission is collected on profits below the high point. For example, say the bankroll's profit high point is 100 BTC, its current profit is 99 BTC and players combined lose a total of 4 BTC in a round. 3 BTC of that is net profit (exceeding the previous all-time high), so bustabit would receive 1.5 BTC and the remaining 2.5 BTC would go to the bankroll. The commission is charged in real time, so investors can continue to invest and divest whenever they like.

For players, nothing changes other than the wager and profit limits increasing by a third as mentioned above.

Hey,

Probably something you get asked a lot today but what made you change the investment scheme to this? Like what is the reason(s)?

Regards,
Paladin.


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