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Author Topic: How would it be know if a segwit thieft actually happened?  (Read 677 times)
Random Seller
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February 10, 2018, 07:23:01 AM
 #21

If miner B controls 51% of the network could they prevent anyone they want from making a bitcoin transaction?

If someone controls more Bitcoin hash power than the entire rest of the world combined, then yes.
Does that also mean that if miners collectively dislike policies implement by the developers they could effectively freeze their accounts as a form of boycott?
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February 10, 2018, 07:39:07 AM
 #22

Does that also mean that if miners collectively dislike policies implement by the developers they could effectively freeze their accounts as a form of boycott?

Bitcoin doesn't use accounts.

How would the miners know which bitcoins belong to the developers?
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February 10, 2018, 07:39:28 AM
 #23

If miner B controls 51% of the network could they prevent anyone they want from making a bitcoin transaction?

If someone controls more Bitcoin hash power than the entire rest of the world combined, then yes.
Does that also mean that if miners collectively dislike policies implement by the developers they could effectively freeze their accounts as a form of boycott?
Yes, in the case of addresses. It's one of the "attacks" that miners can do if they control the majority of the hashrate.

However, the main issue is with them identifying the addresses that those contributors uses. They could "freeze" the address associated with the supporters by refusing to confirm their transactions. However, I don't see that this would help them or Bitcoin. It would just bring out the fact that, if its done, censorship is possible with Bitcoin.

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February 10, 2018, 08:29:54 AM
 #24

If miner B controls 51% of the network could they prevent anyone they want from making a bitcoin transaction?

If someone controls more Bitcoin hash power than the entire rest of the world combined, then yes.
Does that also mean that if miners collectively dislike policies implement by the developers they could effectively freeze their accounts as a form of boycott?
Yes, in the case of addresses. It's one of the "attacks" that miners can do if they control the majority of the hashrate.

However, the main issue is with them identifying the addresses that those contributors uses. They could "freeze" the address associated with the supporters by refusing to confirm their transactions. However, I don't see that this would help them or Bitcoin. It would just bring out the fact that, if its done, censorship is possible with Bitcoin.
Is there some kind of solution to this problem. Ie a method to hide the addresses from the miners?
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February 10, 2018, 09:04:08 AM
 #25

Is there some kind of solution to this problem. Ie a method to hide the addresses from the miners?
Not with Bitcoin. Since every transaction is supposed to be public.

However, its possible to minimize the linkage of your addresses to your real life identity. If not, use a mixer that guarantees you the most privacy. It wouldn't really work after the miner decides to do this since you can't move your coins anymore.

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nullius
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February 10, 2018, 11:34:11 AM
 #26

Another limited reply:

I remember thinking nullc was nullius due to the similarity!! i did later see that it was Gregory Maxwell.

To be clear, I had my heart set on “nullius” as a favoured nym for a future project years before I ever heard of nullc.  My attachment to the nym is why I made the mistake of beginning to use it without checking for collisions with existing use.  (I’m not the “nullius” on Reddit, either; I’ve never had a Reddit account.)

I’ll take it as quite a compliment if you mistook Gregory Maxwell for me!

I wanted to add that this discussion also puts light to the fact that this "dishonest miner" scenario is kept in check because normal users, small merchants CAN run full nodes. That should explain why keeping block size within sustainable limits is important. A lower block size keeps the entry-barrier for running a full node as low as possible.

Good point.  Thus, is it any wonder that

Jihan and co

are leading big-blockers?  Cui bono?


[Snipped long quote from Mircea Popescu. — nullius]

Im not too familiar with this but apparently MP got a lot of bitcoins, and these guys are not trying to scam anyone with shitcoins (forks included) and as far as I understand they are trying to do what's best for bitcoin, so I value their opinion on the matter. I would like to know what you think and why there are big discrepancies with Core, because these must be real technical reasons, since again, they aren't selling their own scamtoken, as Roger and co do.

Thank you for focusing on “real technical reasons”.  In the twentieth post I made to this forum as a “Newbie”, I wrote:

So as for ulterior motives to oppose Segwit.  What overt arguments are advanced by the anti-Segwit side?

On the presumption that Segwit-haters must have at least some plausible excuse for their position, I have spent far too many hours searching the Net and reading what they say.  My objective:  Find even one good reason to oppose Segwit on technical grounds.  Yet despite my such efforts, I have never seen a valid technical argument against Segwit.

Now, let’s see what “real technical reasons” are offered by the evidently intelligent gentleman of whom you speak:

Mircea Popescu’s primary technical argument against Segwit is, “There’s a one Bitcoin reward for the death of Pieter Wuille.”  (Dr. Pieter Wuille, a/k/a sipa, is one of the principal codesigners of Segwit; he is gmaxwell’s esteemed colleague.)

Quote from: Mircea Popescu
The first party to produce a verifiable death certificate for one Pieter Wuille, aka sipa, last known to exist somewhere around KU Leuven in Belgium will receive payment of 1 (one) Bitcoin to any valid* Bitcoin address of his specification.

===

* Valid Bitcoin addresses start with a "1".

Well, there are your “real technical reasons”, cellard.  The red colour is here presented exactly as Popescu put it on his blog.  To show that this was a serious technical argument, he PGP-signed it; the following has been confirmed by me to bear a signature dated 2015-12-10T14:25:01Z from Popescu’s PGP key, fingerprint 0x6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452:

Code:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

The first party to produce a verifiable death certificate for one Pieter Wuille, aka sipa, last known to exist somewhere around KU Leuven in Belgium will receive payment of 1 (one) Bitcoin to any valid* Bitcoin address of his specification.

===

* Valid Bitcoin addresses start with a "1".
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
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=DDdo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

N.b. that unlike most of the anti-Segwit crowd, Popescu is against P2SH, too.  He really means it when he claims that the only valid Bitcoin addresses start with a “1”.

Caveat lector.  Generally, Popescu states many truths, including a few controversial ones; he liberally mixes that with half-truths, innuendo, bare assertions of questionable factuality (or worse), and occasionally, outright nonsense.  He is obviously intelligent.  He excels at showmanship.  He is probably effective at overawing and brainwashing many readers.  I have no idea what his game is, and he is not sufficiently important for me to attempt divining his motives.

The first draft of this post followed the foregoing with a long discussion of Popescu and his tirades against Segwit and otherwise, including some links to choice bits amidst his voluminous writings.  I also thought to discuss the IRC log you quoted (which, by the way, had been quoted by another poster with derision toward Popescu—did you not notice when you quoted that?).  But I must ask, is that really necessary?

My long search for a valid technical argument is at an end; for I have found the ultimate argument of Segwit-haters:  “There’s a one Bitcoin reward for the death of Pieter Wuille.”  Thank you, Mr. Popescu.



You know, this is a recurring topic.  In a thread in December titled “Segwit is a 51% attack on Bitcoin”, I myself offered some more valid technical arguments against Segwit, equal in soundness to all anti-Segwit arguments I have ever seen:

Segwit sinner, dare ye blaspheme Bitcoin Jesus?  If you squint at it hard enough, you can see a 666 in the Segwit logo.  It is hidden and double-crossed inside itself within an ancient Satanic symbol called the Iron Knot of Thermopylae:


And if you play the Segwit jingle backwards, you can hear it say, “Hail Satan!”

The number 51 is also clearly a reference to Area 51.  If Segwit is a 51% attack against Bitcoin, as OP so cogently explained, then how could the grey aliens not be involved!?  Try explaining that away, Segwit shill.

I know this is all true, because I read it on /r/btc.

But that’s not the worst.  There is a frightening secret to Segwit; but I can’t tell you about it, because theymos would ban me.

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February 13, 2018, 03:57:34 AM
 #27

So, Mircea Popescu argues against Segwit with death bounties.  This is how his followers make their case:


The post which evidently set “Last of the V8s” off his rocker was in a PGP-related thread, wherein I briefly quoted myself from this thread.  An interesting portion of Mr. V8s’ signature is here presented with my addition of red boldface:

I have (much) more to say about PGP keys.
Did you follow the phuctorings?


I do not accept segwit outputs as payment, nor send them.
~14 easy tricks to save bitcoin http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/
The auditable hardware RNG https://archive.is/CGQkR


Last I checked, the “phuctor” page had disappeared and was a redirect to the author’s homepage.  I didn’t bother digging, given that said author is one whom I’ve found to eviscerate his own credibility:

N.b. that unlike most of the anti-Segwit crowd, Popescu is against P2SH, too.  He really means it when he claims that the only valid Bitcoin addresses start with a “1”.

Caveat lector.  Generally, Popescu states many truths, including a few controversial ones; he liberally mixes that with half-truths, innuendo, bare assertions of questionable factuality (or worse), and occasionally, outright nonsense.  He is obviously intelligent.  He excels at showmanship.  He is probably effective at overawing and brainwashing many readers.  I have no idea what his game is, and he is not sufficiently important for me to attempt divining his motives.

Anyway, this is off-topic on this thread.  If you care to take it up elsewhere, feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum and PM me the link.  I’ll reply if (and only if) it’s interesting.

Any more questions about M.P., cellard?  Don’t take that the wrong way.  I’ve read Trilema; I know that its author knows how to speak very persuasively.

(Aside, MPEx (Mircea Popescu’s stock Exchange) still demands a 50 BTC registration fee despite that its homepage currently advertises a 30-day total volume of 1.19999520 BTC.  That’s for the entire exchange—while the homepage also advertises, “Providing nucleation in the superheated fluid of Bitcoin.”  Popescu’s forum spokeswoman has been silent since 18 April 2016.  Popescu is evidently not a man who can keep a big-money project going for more than a few years.  Too bad for all the people who paid 50 BTC for that.)

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February 13, 2018, 10:19:31 AM
 #28

Meh I was wrong about one thing. I should have described him as 'Passingly entertaining'. As for the rest, the evidence is ^.
Anyway, I leave you to get on with your topic.

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February 23, 2018, 06:50:48 PM
 #29

nullius is correct in his loving account of Maxwell’s humanitarian contribution to bitcoin. What I don’t understand is how someone can be that dedicated and selfless while working on a system that is purely a money creating tool of commerce. Nearly everyone else with talent in the bitcoin ecosphere that began working on bitcoin as a cool coding side project, a cryptography nerds play toy, an anarchist/libertarian fantasy decided to jump ship with dreams of massive wealth and glory. I could see someone with an altruistic love for privacy and society and a crystal clear understanding of cryptography dedicating every available extra moment to the advancement of SecureDrop but not Bitcoin. Stefan Thomas and David Schwartz (JoelKatz) went on to chase riches with Ripple. Vitalik Buterin and Mihai Alisie ran away to huff ether for fame and riches. So many have left while Maxwell just chugs along on Reddit, IRC and this upholstered brothel as he has always done. Why he doesn’t just leave all this crap to Wuille and Todd to chase fame and glory I’ll never understand.

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