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Author Topic: Need a PayPal refund for your BFL purchase?  (Read 33862 times)
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lajz99
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September 16, 2013, 06:57:18 AM
Last edit: October 28, 2013, 01:08:19 AM by lajz99
 #1

Have you not received what you have paid for from Butterfly Labs?

As you've probably seen in the thread most, if not all requests are being rejected at this point but feel free to give it a shot.  Please note, I will not be replying to PM's asking for help/additional information at this point.  All of the advice I can provide is in this post.

The two email addresses below are for a paypal exec and exec escalation team that you can reach out to that has resulted in getting quite a few of us refunds.

Email: david.marcus@paypal.com AND executiveoffice@paypal.com

Make sure you explain the situation with BFL talking about their missed ship dates, still cannot provide ship dates and will not provide a refund although they have not shipped the product, etc.  Also include the information about your PayPal transaction and a phone number you can be reached at.  

Some good advice from OleOle who recently received a refund.
A couple of remarks for those people who are still reading and still considering how to go about getting a refund. I cannot comment on what it's like to try to get a refund via Paypal after the 45 days from date of order, what I will say though is that there are plenty of examples on this and other threads where people have succeeded, so go for it, it is possible and it's your money. The dispute resolution process is basically you writing the circumstances of the transaction and non-delivery in 2000 words or less. After looking at some of the suggested templates and some of the observations on this thread, I decided that it would be far better me writing my own letter, rather than using any template. The reason for this is that by writing your own unique correspondence, it's obvious that you've taken the time to write your own portrayal of events, you're not forwarding a cut-and-paste response and you're letting Paypal know that the matter is serious and that you take the matter seriously. It's my gut feeling that many of the people being refused refunds by Paypal are those people you are just pumping off any old crappolla and not giving Paypal anything to work with. Tell the truth as you see it, be accurate with your dates, times, provide a link to Jody's shipping blog showing the delays. Be clear, articulate and tell it how it is. Remember you are in the right. Draft your response so that it's worthy of being actioned and if it doesn't get actioned the first time, be happy enough with what you've written so that you can forward it to more senior management in Paypal if necessary. Most people have been very reasonable, it's BFL that have been entirely unreasonable and broken almost every 'promised delivery timeframe' in the last year. Paypal are well aware of the situation, the refund comes from BFL, you'll get the email to prove it. Paypal will not be footing the bill, so your aim is to write clearly enough to provide enough ammunition that Paypal can insist that BFL offer you a refund. That's the task, that's what your letter to Paypal has to achieve. It's doable, so go do it, it will take less than one hour of your time. How many days, weeks, months have you waited?

If you receive the standard 45 day notice from PayPal READ THIS: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295187.msg3350757#msg3350757

File a complaint with the FTC:
To everyone who received a paypal refund with lajz99's help.

Please support the rest of the community and visit the thread below.

Just because you have a positive outcome does not mean you can not still file a complaint with the FTC.

This is your opportunity to give something back, please spare 10 minutes of your time to complete the form.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319522.0

Note : I had difficulties accessing the website from outside the US and had to use a proxy plugin with firefox. (web proxies did not work for me.)

# Bitcointalk Users Who Have Received Refunds:  98(that I am aware of)

If you have obtained a refund with this information and wish to tip it is appreciated (but of course not required) and I thank you in advance. Addresses can be found in my signature or you can shoot me a PM.

Please Note: This is a self-moderated thread.  I will remove any posts I feel are off topic or uncalled for as requested by the mod.  

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shapemaker
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September 16, 2013, 08:13:45 AM
 #2

Even though I don't have a stake in the mess that is BFL, I thank you for the service you provide. This community needs more spirit like yours.

Keep up the good work!

Shut up and give me money: 115UAYWLPTcRQ2hrT7VNo84SSFE5nT5ozo
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September 16, 2013, 08:56:58 AM
 #3

Just want to say that this method works and there is nothing suspicious about how lajz99 is vetting his instructions. It will make sense once you get the PM. I got my refund in 6 hours and was impressed by the professionalism of PayPal.

BFL are now delivering products that are too late to be anywhere as useful as they would have been if they shipped them before all the Avalon derived units and Bitfury systems, not to mention the imminent KNC onslaught. BFL have made repeated false promises/estimates/lies. Your refund is entirely justified. I recommend doing it.

"How are you justifying these as fair use?  They are clearly and unequivocally a copyright violation."
"I really want to know how you justify that under the fair use doctrine?  It does not conform to a single point of fair use."
Josh whining about people reusing his studio portrait shot on this forum. Can you copyright a copyright complaint? All Paypal refunds are final.
PuertoLibre
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September 16, 2013, 11:28:15 AM
 #4

For those who want to see the reviews of people whom Lajz99 has helped in his previous thread (before it got derailed):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291205.0

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klondike_bar
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September 16, 2013, 03:37:20 PM
 #5

i did his method late last week, and within 48hrs got an email saying my purchase/payment was cancelled and reversed, with my money back in the paypal account!


24" PCI-E cables with 16AWG wires and stripped ends - great for server PSU mods, best prices https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563461
No longer a wannabe - now an ASIC owner!
cad_cdn
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September 16, 2013, 03:38:55 PM
 #6

any help for TH paypal buyers?
lajz99
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September 16, 2013, 03:39:51 PM
 #7

any help for TH paypal buyers?

Shoot me a message and let's give it a shot!

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September 17, 2013, 12:09:54 AM
 #8

Worked for me, extremely fast too, thanks again lajz99!
lajz99
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September 17, 2013, 12:13:13 AM
 #9

Worked for me, extremely fast too, thanks again lajz99!

Glad to hear it worked out for you!

And thank you again to those who have sent tips!  I don't always know who you are, but do know that I appreciate it!

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September 17, 2013, 03:51:54 AM
 #10

Ok just wanted to say this is legit! Funny thing is I went this route last week or maybe more and nothing came of it. After shooting the PM he gave me an additional email addy at paypal that I did not have previously. this second email is golden. I just received this email from paypal...


Dear Ms. Laura ...,

Thank you for reaching out to PayPal regarding your concerns with your Butterfly Lab transactions. We take situations like this very seriously and are pleased to inform you we have been in direct communication with Butterfly Labs and your payment has been refunded.

If your original payment was funded with a credit card, the refund will be returned to your credit card. If you funded the payment via your bank account or PayPal balance, the funds will be returned to your PayPal balance.

Thank you for being a valued customer!

Sincerely,
Timothy
PayPal
lajz99
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September 17, 2013, 03:53:28 AM
 #11

NICE!  Not only is the number of refunds increasing but the $ value is AMAZING!  Glad to see people getting those large orders taken care of.

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September 17, 2013, 04:18:40 AM
 #12

+1 this guy is awesome. Managed to get a refund within less than 24 hours!

BFL Jallies are useless anyway Tongue

Thank you again!
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September 17, 2013, 04:24:34 AM
 #13

Thank you for your PM, obviously this is no help for me and others who payed by bank TX/ BTC .

What we really need here now is someone with a legal perspective on consumer rights within the US to provide advice and a way forward for those remaining.

There has to be someone in this forum with such a contact.  Even if they acted on a 10 % commission fee they could do well.  Shocked

@Josh  The game is almost up my friend  Wink RIP Butterfly Labs
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September 17, 2013, 05:10:17 AM
 #14

Another +1 refund received within hours - amazing... no questions asked just reversed immediately.
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September 17, 2013, 05:22:10 AM
 #15

+1 this guy is awesome. Managed to get a refund within less than 24 hours!

BFL Jallies are useless anyway Tongue

Thank you again!

I have free power and thus would still like my gear in a timely fashion. I have received the info via PM as to how to get the virtually instant PP refund and have notified BFL that they have until September 23rd to ship or I will initiate the refund process with PP...... what did BFL do? Abbey sent me a form email stating all sales are final etc etc.....

Let's be clear, I WANT my gear - I want it by the end of September as this is when BFL has stated numerous times that my orders would be shipped. Josh even revised the date for backlog clearance to the end of April and all my orders are prior to the end of March..... I'll still wait another week before I send the email to PP just to be sure that the dead horse is indeed beaten to the utter pulp it would appear to be from a distance...... And should the virtually inevitable outcome happen that I get my refund I will send my tip to the OP and include a note on the transaction to be stored forever in the blockchain that I refunded BFL orders #### from PP thanks to him
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September 17, 2013, 12:22:50 PM
 #16

For reference, this is the email I wrote which go a reply the same day (with refund).
Quote
Subject: Complaint about Butterfly Labs Inc. fraud

I have a complaint to file against a Paypal merchant, BF Labs Inc, (office@butterflylabs.com)

This company is now famous on the internet for defrauding customers and has defrauded me of over $4,600

I bought physical goods on a pre-order basis in March and April on the understanding they would be delivered any time between 2 weeks and up to 2 months. I was not aware Paypal strictly forbids pre-orders. They proceeded to delay the delivery of these orders citing technical difficulties. They constantly give deceptive updates which I believe were entirely designed to cause the expiry of Paypal's 45 day limit on disputes.

Unfortunately, I believed their lies and gave them the benefit of the doubt. I then came to know one of the company's founders is a convicted felon who is still on probation for running a previous "long con" operation.

I eventually decided to give up and request a refund: emailed the company several times to request a refund, but I was summarily refused, and finally repeated requests are just flat out ignored. I still to date have not received delivery of my orders.

Here are the transaction ID

[paypal transaction ID list]

Unfortunately most of these payments were made with paypal balances so I am not able to initiate any chargeback via my card company.

I filed claims in the paypal dispute center but they were automatically closed because it's outside the 45 day period.

[paypal dispute reference list]   

I came to understand that Paypal can escalate this issue to give a refund because basically Bf Labs Inc have broken the Paypal terms of service by selling products on a "pre-order basis".
My understanding is Paypal requires merchants to deliver goods within 20 days of an order being placed.

I would be very grateful if you could escalate this issue and refund my money. I have been a loyal customer for over 12 years and hope Paypal can protect us consumers from fraudsters like this.

Yours sincerely,

[name]
Paypal account: [my paypal email]
Paypal merchant ID: [my paypal merchant ID available in the profile section]

Tel [my phone numbers]

Good email but FYI for anyone else I just wrote a couple of lines short and sweet and it refunded quickly. I honestly think any mention of Bfl and they instantly refund they are that sick of them
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September 17, 2013, 12:53:34 PM
 #17


It worked for me although it took 5 days to get money back on my account which doesnt really matter
when one has been waiting for months or years.

Thank you lajz99

Code:
Small tip for your help.
From dex1 to lajz99

https://blockchain.info/tx/61c84a29b44db1c0ebe2480142d4a24fee0cfd957b0405fade00ad849adc3ba5

H8yYdCUN484Wd19WYr1Sc5r71Rk93zJxFITpcBKJAvC3jQ2YDhImTqxtiK+QPImG3u1xKD7XWmhsjy3/RQW/A2w=


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September 17, 2013, 01:06:21 PM
 #18

Thank lajz99 and your tip on way to your LTC wall.
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September 17, 2013, 03:32:39 PM
 #19

Wow, this method works incredibly well. I got a refund for my $1,333 order within 10 hours. I really appreciate your help lajz99. Thank you so much!

I sent you a little tip for your help: e9d309c578c52ff5e4b2eceeffae4aacacd07c6988d2bea6f7b4db7eaacd6e4e

Dwayne
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September 17, 2013, 03:41:57 PM
 #20

Holy hell guys...I just responded to 70+ requests for information and have at least 6 responses confirming refunds to add to the list.

I've gotta do a little work (yea, I've got a grown up job), but will respond to any more requests that come in around lunch time.  Keep em coming!!!

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