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monsters4r
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September 27, 2013, 01:21:05 PM |
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P.S. Josh hates it if you use this picture as a profile image. I know this for a fact. It's copyrighted.  Really ?  |
--- APOM - Anti Pre-Order Movement ---
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silicont
Member
 Offline
Activity: 87
Merit: 10
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September 27, 2013, 02:50:29 PM |
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Magic bullet emails have done nothing for me, yet. Sent five days ago.
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dragonkid
Member
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Activity: 84
Merit: 10
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September 27, 2013, 03:42:21 PM |
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Have you not received what you have paid for from Butterfly Labs? As you've probably seen in the thread most, if not all requests are being rejected at this point but feel free to give it a shot. The two email addresses below are for a paypal exec and exec escalation team that you can reach out to that has resulted in getting quite a few of us refunds. Email: david.marcus@paypal.com AND executiveoffice@paypal.comMake sure you explain the situation with BFL talking about their missed ship dates, still cannot provide ship dates and will not provide a refund although they have not shipped the product, etc. Also include the information about your PayPal transaction and a phone number you can be reached at. Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions. PLEASE shoot me a PM or post in this thread if you have received a refund so we can keep track!# Bitcointalk Users Who Have Received Refunds: 97 (that I am aware of) If you have obtained a refund with this information and wish to tip it is appreciated (but of course not required) and I thank you in advance. Addresses can be found in my signature or you can shoot me a PM. Please Note: This is a self-moderated thread. I will remove any posts I feel are off topic or uncalled for as requested by the mod. Thank you I got my refund.  |
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Keyser Soze
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September 27, 2013, 04:13:31 PM |
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The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange.
Not really, if you ordered in early June and got refunded around July 6th in BTC and then re-ordered a week or so later, you'd still have an order and a fair amount of BTC. Isn't that what I said though? By placing an order you are locking in a specific price for your coins (selling them) and when you request a refund you are getting the coins back at the current market rate (buying them). Your example just added a step of placing another order. You could have the exact same effect by trading your coins on an exchange. |
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k9quaint
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
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September 27, 2013, 04:21:29 PM |
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So annoyed by Josh's bullshit. He doesn't even know what a hedge is. You invest in something and you reduce the risk of that investment by betting that the value might go down by purchasing another financial instrument. ie. you buy two things. Typically you'd invest in an equity and then put a short option on the same equity, so that you minimise your losses either way.
If I was hedging on the bitcoin price I'd buy Bitcoins and also buy an option on the price going down. In what way is putting my money into BFL's bank account for a year reducing my risk on the movement of the price of bitcoin? If I get a refund I still haven't made any money on Bitcoin because I didn't have any Bitcoin because BFL had my money!!!
Josh is a stupid asshole who thinks he's cleverer than he is. It's annoying me that he is annoying me :-)
The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange. Not really, if you ordered in early June and got refunded around July 6th in BTC and then re-ordered a week or so later, you'd still have an order and a fair amount of BTC. If BFL is holding the BTC as a deposit until they deliver it is no skin off BFL's nose if a customer asks for a refund. They shouldn't cash in the BTC until they deliver the goods. The issue arises not from people wishing to hedge their BTC (if wouldn't be a hedge if BFL refunded them in BTC), but from BFL holding 100% deposits (or investments depending on how BFL spent the money) for a year. That creates a currency risk, which of course BFL tried to foist onto their customers. At some point, we shall see what the AG of Kansas thinks of this sort of behavior |
Bitcoin is backed by the full faith and credit of YouTube comments.
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Phinnaeus Gage
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
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September 27, 2013, 04:40:39 PM |
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The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange.
Not really, if you ordered in early June and got refunded around July 6th in BTC and then re-ordered a week or so later, you'd still have an order and a fair amount of BTC. Isn't that what I said though? By placing an order you are locking in a specific price for your coins (selling them) and when you request a refund you are getting the coins back at the current market rate (buying them). Your example just added a step of placing another order. You could have the exact same effect by trading your coins on an exchange. This doesn't make sense. No matter when you ordered or with what currency, you're getting back the exact same dollar amount regardless of the exchange rate for bitcoins is or was. |
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OleOle
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September 27, 2013, 04:43:47 PM |
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Some advice required please. I placed an order with BFL in late August 2013 as a result of their promise that they would be up to date and have all orders shipped out by "the end of September". Well, it's now almost the end of September and I've just checked my BFL account and it lists no change in my "processing order" status. I then also checked Jody's shipping blog of 27th September and the upgraded Jalapeno units I ordered are still back-logged to 28th February. That makes them a full seven months behind their 'promise' to deliver by the end of this month. I was happy to take them on their word that they'd drafted in extra staff and resources and that they'd be able to meet their end of September deadline, however, this has now been shown to be completely unrealistic and yet another attempt to deceive customers and take advantage of their money and goodwill. I used Paypal and I'll still be within 45 days for both the 5 GH/s unit cost and the additional 2 GH/s upgrade cost, what's the best way in your experience that I go about getting a Paypal refund please? Should I email david.marcus@paypal.com and executiveoffice@paypal.com immediately or should I be doing something else as I'm within the 45 days? Thanks for any information that you can provide and kudos for helping the community like this, I have to say I was pleased and relieved to see your thread.  |
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lajz99 (OP)
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September 27, 2013, 04:45:34 PM |
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Some advice required please. I placed an order with BFL in late August 2013 as a result of their promise that they would be up to date and have all orders shipped out by "the end of September". Well, it's now almost the end of September and I've just checked my BFL account and it lists no change in my "processing order" status. I then also checked Jody's shipping blog of 27th September and the upgraded Jalapeno units I ordered are still back-logged to 28th February. That makes them a full seven months behind their 'promise' to deliver by the end of this month. I was happy to take them on their word that they'd drafted in extra staff and resources and that they'd be able to meet their end of September deadline, however, this has now been shown to be completely unrealistic and yet another attempt to deceive customers and take advantage of their money and goodwill. I used Paypal and I'll still be within 45 days for both the 5 GH/s unit cost and the additional 2 GH/s upgrade cost, what's the best way in your experience that I go about getting a Paypal refund please? Should I email david.marcus@paypal.com and executiveoffice@paypal.com immediately or should I be doing something else as I'm within the 45 days? Thanks for any information that you can provide and kudos for helping the community like this, I have to say I was pleased and relieved to see your thread. Since you're within the 45 days you should still be able to file a standard claim via the website to get your $ back. |
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OleOle
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September 27, 2013, 04:48:48 PM |
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Ok, great. Thanks very much indeed. I really appreciate all your help and will let you know if/when I get the refund. Keep up the good work! Thanks again |
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Keyser Soze
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September 27, 2013, 04:53:10 PM |
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The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange.
Not really, if you ordered in early June and got refunded around July 6th in BTC and then re-ordered a week or so later, you'd still have an order and a fair amount of BTC. Isn't that what I said though? By placing an order you are locking in a specific price for your coins (selling them) and when you request a refund you are getting the coins back at the current market rate (buying them). Your example just added a step of placing another order. You could have the exact same effect by trading your coins on an exchange. This doesn't make sense. No matter when you ordered or with what currency, you're getting back the exact same dollar amount regardless of the exchange rate for bitcoins is or was. My original point was that you cannot hedge the price of bitcoins by placing and canceling orders. If you place an order and pay with bitcoins and then request a refund 10 days later, it would be the same as selling coins and buying them back. |
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bcp19
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September 27, 2013, 05:24:12 PM |
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I can't believe the way you try to find ways of defending logic like this. It's hard to know for certain the time period for when most BFL orders were placed but I'm betting the bulk of them took place in 2012, given the time it has taken to ship the orders for that period. The logic that people paid fiat or BTC in 2012 to "hedge" against the price of Bitcoin between then and September 2013 is ludicrous. Another point is that you would only "hedge" if you had certainty of the delivery date, which is completely not the case with BFL. All future and option contracts have expiry/maturity dates, as anyone who knows anything about financial markets would know.
The real story is that BFL knew how much hash rate they had sold at any point. At a point in time during their preorder period they must have known that their order book would make subsequent orders not a worthwhile investment. Obviously this depends on the exchange rate which peaked in April, which would have altered the calculation, but even then, as we are seeing now, this threshold was greatly surpassed.
BFL were greedy, oversold what they could produce, sold goods they knew would not be useful to their customers and because of their delays, reduced potential and future returns due to the emergence of competitors who could deliver before them. They deliberately withheld their order book and chose to lock customers in on May 1st knowing this dissatisfaction would occur.
BCP19, you are a cheerleader for BFL. Can I ask why?
You must have some weird definition of cheerleader. Personally, I fail to see why you think BFL or any other mining equipment manufacturuing company should care less if their customers can make RoI or not. They are in the business of selling an item. If the public is so greedy to buy that item that they ruin the RoI on it, I fail to see WHY the company should be the moral compass for the public. Look at McDonalds. They must know that people who regularly eat at their restaurants are at an increased risk for obesity and heart disease, but do they care? They' are only interested in the bottom line, the almighty $$$$$. I also wouldn't call BFL greedy, as they could have jacked the prices up after seeing the demand. If you want to talk GREED, then you need to point at ASICMiner first and foremost. |
I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain! We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
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donch
Member
Offline
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
Updated ironic image.
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September 27, 2013, 05:35:31 PM |
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You must have some weird definition of cheerleader. Someone who consistently defends BFL's actions and sees no harm in what they have done? Personally, I fail to see why you think BFL or any other mining equipment manufacturuing company should care less if their customers can make RoI or not. They are in the business of selling an item. If the public is so greedy to buy that item that they ruin the RoI on it, I fail to see WHY the company should be the moral compass for the public. Look at McDonalds. They must know that people who regularly eat at their restaurants are at an increased risk for obesity and heart disease, but do they care? They' are only interested in the bottom line, the almighty $$$$$. Repeat custom. McDonalds customers go back because they can get their meal quickly and cheaply. Mining customers will go back to a manufacturer if they have been treated fairly and with respect, given accurate information and receive timely delivery. I also wouldn't call BFL greedy, as they could have jacked the prices up after seeing the demand. If you want to talk GREED, then you need to point at ASICMiner first and foremost.
They did jack up the prices (doubled them) in the first half of this year. Can't remember the exact date. |
"How are you justifying these as fair use? They are clearly and unequivocally a copyright violation."
"I really want to know how you justify that under the fair use doctrine? It does not conform to a single point of fair use."
Josh whining about people reusing his studio portrait shot on this forum. Can you copyright a copyright complaint? All Paypal refunds are final.
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PuertoLibre
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1848
Merit: 1003
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September 27, 2013, 05:40:17 PM |
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Have you not received what you have paid for from Butterfly Labs? As you've probably seen in the thread most, if not all requests are being rejected at this point but feel free to give it a shot. The two email addresses below are for a paypal exec and exec escalation team that you can reach out to that has resulted in getting quite a few of us refunds. Email: david.marcus@paypal.com AND executiveoffice@paypal.comMake sure you explain the situation with BFL talking about their missed ship dates, still cannot provide ship dates and will not provide a refund although they have not shipped the product, etc. Also include the information about your PayPal transaction and a phone number you can be reached at. Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions. PLEASE shoot me a PM or post in this thread if you have received a refund so we can keep track!# Bitcointalk Users Who Have Received Refunds: 97 (that I am aware of) If you have obtained a refund with this information and wish to tip it is appreciated (but of course not required) and I thank you in advance. Addresses can be found in my signature or you can shoot me a PM. Please Note: This is a self-moderated thread. I will remove any posts I feel are off topic or uncalled for as requested by the mod. Thank you I got my refund. What process did you use? |
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PuertoLibre
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1848
Merit: 1003
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September 27, 2013, 05:43:28 PM |
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Contact someone @ phishing@commercebank.com. Ask them about how to report (what you suspect is fraud) at commerce bank.  1) Tell them you paid for an item 1 (or more) months ago and you have not received the item you paid for. 2) Tell them you paid with a wire transfer (for those who paid with a wire transfer only) and that BFL has not sent you the miner you paid for within a [very] reasonable period of time. 3) Add notes about your transaction ID, dates, amounts sent, purpose for contacting them about your wire transfer. Let them know you have already contacted BFL and they have refused offering a refund for their poor business practice. 4) Let them know about the PayPal merchant account situation and that it was one of the Payment Processors that shut them down for ....well I don't know the official reason... 5) Let them know of the sheer number of complaints at the Kansas AG (Attorney General), the Local Police Department and District Attorney has on file. Report back and let the community know if they give you an email or phone number which is not listed. |
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PuertoLibre
Legendary
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Activity: 1848
Merit: 1003
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September 27, 2013, 05:44:03 PM |
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HellDiverUK
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September 27, 2013, 06:54:03 PM |
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I sent my e-mail on 09/19/2013 and just got the same response as below on 09/26/2013. I guess the magic e-mail addresses aren't working anymore. heh.. Chad This is me hopping on the failboat From: executiveoffice@paypal.comSubject: Your PayPal Account ? Case(s) PP-x, PP-x (x) :ppNA Dear Mr. [ x ], Thank you for reaching out to PayPal for assistance regarding your dispute with Butterfly Labs. After a thorough review of your claim, we have determined we cannot continue with this investigation because your complaint was filed 45 or more days after the original transaction date. In order to prevent a similar issue in the future, you are able to learn more about how we investigate transaction problems by clicking “Legal Agreements” at the bottom of any PayPal page, then click “PayPal User Agreement.” You can find additional information and tips about buying and selling safely on our Business Resource Center at https://www.paypal-businesscenter.com/manage-your-business. You are valued customer and we are sorry we were not able to meet your needs. Thank you for your patience and cooperation regarding this matter. Sincerely, PayPal I had initially sent them a modified version of that formletter that appears on bflrefund.me My real fuckup was probably when I waited to hear back from BFL regarding my refund request before raising it with PayPal (I didn't want to be lying when I said they denied a refund, even though I knew they would... didn't think I'd get rejected from PP though) My PayPal order was paid for with a bank transfer (ACH I'm assuming) should I get in contact with my bank? I'm thinking of contacting PP again asking why they've changed their minds today. Same here. Same BS letter. |
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Noogsy
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September 27, 2013, 08:45:04 PM |
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I sent my e-mail on 09/19/2013 and just got the same response as below on 09/26/2013. I guess the magic e-mail addresses aren't working anymore. heh.. Chad This is me hopping on the failboat From: executiveoffice@paypal.comSubject: Your PayPal Account ? Case(s) PP-x, PP-x (x) :ppNA Dear Mr. [ x ], Thank you for reaching out to PayPal for assistance regarding your dispute with Butterfly Labs. After a thorough review of your claim, we have determined we cannot continue with this investigation because your complaint was filed 45 or more days after the original transaction date. In order to prevent a similar issue in the future, you are able to learn more about how we investigate transaction problems by clicking “Legal Agreements” at the bottom of any PayPal page, then click “PayPal User Agreement.” You can find additional information and tips about buying and selling safely on our Business Resource Center at https://www.paypal-businesscenter.com/manage-your-business. You are valued customer and we are sorry we were not able to meet your needs. Thank you for your patience and cooperation regarding this matter. Sincerely, PayPal I had initially sent them a modified version of that formletter that appears on bflrefund.me My real fuckup was probably when I waited to hear back from BFL regarding my refund request before raising it with PayPal (I didn't want to be lying when I said they denied a refund, even though I knew they would... didn't think I'd get rejected from PP though) My PayPal order was paid for with a bank transfer (ACH I'm assuming) should I get in contact with my bank? I'm thinking of contacting PP again asking why they've changed their minds today. Same here. Same BS letter. +1 (same "letter") |
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Cheers
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bcp19
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September 27, 2013, 10:02:15 PM |
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You must have some weird definition of cheerleader. Someone who consistently defends BFL's actions and sees no harm in what they have done? Personally, I fail to see why you think BFL or any other mining equipment manufacturuing company should care less if their customers can make RoI or not. They are in the business of selling an item. If the public is so greedy to buy that item that they ruin the RoI on it, I fail to see WHY the company should be the moral compass for the public. Look at McDonalds. They must know that people who regularly eat at their restaurants are at an increased risk for obesity and heart disease, but do they care? They' are only interested in the bottom line, the almighty $$$$$. Repeat custom. McDonalds customers go back because they can get their meal quickly and cheaply. Mining customers will go back to a manufacturer if they have been treated fairly and with respect, given accurate information and receive timely delivery. I also wouldn't call BFL greedy, as they could have jacked the prices up after seeing the demand. If you want to talk GREED, then you need to point at ASICMiner first and foremost.
They did jack up the prices (doubled them) in the first half of this year. Can't remember the exact date. If that is what you call a cheerleader, you missed there... I've never defended their every action, I merely point out the other side of the argument. In addition, I never said I see no harm. I did a workup about 2 months ago as to what would have happened in BFL had shipped on time. I used very small shipping amounts and the results were that only the first 1-3% (depending on their true customer count) would have even had a prayer of RoI. I foresaw today's difficutly back in May, I was just 3 weeks early. You can thank Yifu and BFL for causing me to miss the date. You did get that one right, they did double the prices at the point they had working chips in hand and found out they needed roughly 2x as many chips. Basically when they went from proto-type to production model. I love how you guys defend AM's practice of fleecing people "because he had product in hand". $1,000,000 for 1.333TH is what AM was charging back in May. Through BFL that would have cost about 1/20th the price(1/30 if you bought before April). On the one hand you have an in the hand now ASIC that will never earn RoI vs a pre-order that has a dern sight better chance. |
I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain! We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
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Moth436
Newbie
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Activity: 7
Merit: 0
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September 28, 2013, 06:49:15 AM |
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Same here. Same BS letter. +1 (same "letter")
Me too. Has anyone had any luck ringing the senior agents? |
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DefectiveNu
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
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September 28, 2013, 04:54:40 PM |
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So I talked to my bank (PNC) yesterday, just to get information, not to start anything yet. They said that I could initiate the process whenever ("doesn't matter how far back it was") and they would open an investigation. They basically just told me to have all the dates and exact amounts. They also warned that if I had a continuing relationship with PayPal this could be bad for that (which I figured, since they'd be doing a chargeback on paypal essentially).
I replied to the paypal "we can'd do anything for you" letter from executiveoffice, and made it include david.marcus again. I'll see if I get any response, but its already been >1 day on that and the initial reply only took an hour or so.
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