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Author Topic: Religion is a plague  (Read 10850 times)
JA37
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July 18, 2011, 07:28:34 PM
 #21

Christians, Muslims, Jews and other monotheists almost all believe might makes right. They worship God because they believe He is all-powerful.  I asked many Christians if they would still worship God if Satan was more powerful.  Few responded. You could see smoke coming from their ears. They tried to weasel out question. Ultimately the answer for almost all of them is "no". They would worship Satan if Satan was all-powerful. 

Might=right for these people. This is why they are Statists and why they are perfectly comfortable with a system centered around a violence monopoly. 

Sweet jesus is there no end to the hyperbole?
Atheist statist here. I'm comfortable knowing that the people with the right to use violence are trained to do so, instructed to use a minimum of force and responsible for their actions. Anything else would be madness. Just as I consider religion to be.

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July 18, 2011, 07:29:58 PM
 #22

Well, I Satan would be more powerful than God, but still being bad, then I would still believing in God. However, if Satan would be all-powerful, he would know that to be bad is not sustainable, so he would not be bad.

That's not - quite - an answer. But it's close enough.

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July 18, 2011, 07:32:42 PM
 #23

you could boil down this thread topic to 'choice is a plague'

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July 18, 2011, 07:37:41 PM
 #24

First of all there's a difference between religion and church. Most bad stuff is caused by people in control of the church manipulating others using religion.

That said I believe that religion isn't good either. It's basically just a shortcut your brain makes to give you simple explanations and make you feel nice in bad times.

Smart people don't need religion to know how to live their lives, but i'm fine with it if their beliefs make them feel better. The simple folks on the other hand get basic guidelines for their life from it. All would be good, but unfortunately most religions actively try to "teach" the "right" religion to all others, that's the worst on religion imho.

I personally don't care if god exists, and I think I will never know and I'm fine with that. Even if he did so what, he never does anything which makes him irrelevant. Religion says it's cause he gave us free will, so why are most religious people trying to take it from me?

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FredericBastiat
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July 18, 2011, 08:30:10 PM
 #25


I care and you should too. Being ignorant isn't a crime but there's more to life than justice. We shouldn't adopt a "who cares" attitude. If that's not what you meant then I don't know. Your posts usually strike me as wordy and pretentious. Your whole style does. So it's kind of difficult to know when you're being sincere.

Point taken. I'll try to be less pretentious in the future, although I'm not sure how to make it less wordy. I do care despite what I said (it was a bit flippant).

I genuinely want people to do good, for goodness sake. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's just that some people prefer it. That I can't do much about other than make suggestions in a persuasive manner.

I have good intentions, that's why I opine. Lastly, I don't want the world to go to "hell" in a handbasket.

That should about do it I think.  Smiley

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JA37
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July 18, 2011, 09:22:10 PM
 #26

I'm comfortable knowing that the people with the right to use violence are trained to do so, instructed to use a minimum of force and responsible for their actions. Anything else would be madness. Just as I consider religion to be.

Here's an excellent example of minimum use of force:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZxkAn-g4Xo

As far as responsible ? To whom ? They are the law.

No, that's not an excellent example of minimum of force. That's an example of the opposite.

They're not the law. They are the enforcers of laws. They are responsible to the law.

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July 19, 2011, 04:25:25 AM
 #27

Civilization is the triumph of persuasion over force.  As my largest objection to religion is the philosophical assumption that might is right, it would hardly be consistent of me to advocate eradication of religion through force. No such measures are necessary.


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July 19, 2011, 04:36:40 AM
 #28

I'm comfortable knowing that the people with the right to use violence are trained to do so, instructed to use a minimum of force and responsible for their actions. Anything else would be madness. Just as I consider religion to be.

Here's an excellent example of minimum use of force:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZxkAn-g4Xo

As far as responsible ? To whom ? They are the law.

No, that's not an excellent example of minimum of force. That's an example of the opposite.

They're not the law. They are the enforcers of laws. They are responsible to the law.

And this is an example of sarcasm flying right over someone's head.

Also, a disturbing amount of faith in 'the system'. Newsflash: The cop that shot the kid at the bus station: Slap on the wrist.
The cops in that video: no punishment at all.
When they're done wiping their ass with the constitution, they start in on the magna carta.

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July 19, 2011, 06:04:52 AM
 #29


Also, a disturbing amount of faith in 'the system'. Newsflash: The cop that shot the kid at the bus station: Slap on the wrist.
The cops in that video: no punishment at all.
When they're done wiping their ass with the constitution, they start in on the magna carta.

They've already started. No Habeus corpus for Gitmo detainees. No castle doctrine in cases of no-knock warrants.  Sets us back about 800 years. 

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JA37
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July 19, 2011, 06:53:53 PM
 #30

And this is an example of sarcasm flying right over someone's head.

Also, a disturbing amount of faith in 'the system'. Newsflash: The cop that shot the kid at the bus station: Slap on the wrist.
The cops in that video: no punishment at all.
When they're done wiping their ass with the constitution, they start in on the magna carta.

Fix your damn system then. Cops here are punished if they break the law. Find a politician who isn't "tough on crime" but wants to reform the criminal system from the ground up and fix the issues. And here's a broad generalization: The Americas have a culture of violence from the start.
Compare that to India, the most peaceful country I know. Sure, there are violence there too, but I've never felt like I was in danger anywhere in India, while in Latin America I rarely go out after dusk.

Have a look at a few social studies and start there, and put criminal cops in prison where they belong. Europe doesn't have the same problems, although I will admit that it's not perfect here either.

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July 19, 2011, 09:43:19 PM
 #31

And this is an example of sarcasm flying right over someone's head.

Also, a disturbing amount of faith in 'the system'. Newsflash: The cop that shot the kid at the bus station: Slap on the wrist.
The cops in that video: no punishment at all.
When they're done wiping their ass with the constitution, they start in on the magna carta.

Fix your damn system then. Cops here are punished if they break the law. Find a politician who isn't "tough on crime" but wants to reform the criminal system from the ground up and fix the issues. And here's a broad generalization: The Americas have a culture of violence from the start.
Compare that to India, the most peaceful country I know. Sure, there are violence there too, but I've never felt like I was in danger anywhere in India, while in Latin America I rarely go out after dusk.

Have a look at a few social studies and start there, and put criminal cops in prison where they belong. Europe doesn't have the same problems, although I will admit that it's not perfect here either.

Terrorist bombed Bombay less than a week ago.

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myrkul
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July 19, 2011, 09:47:57 PM
 #32

And this is an example of sarcasm flying right over someone's head.

Also, a disturbing amount of faith in 'the system'. Newsflash: The cop that shot the kid at the bus station: Slap on the wrist.
The cops in that video: no punishment at all.
When they're done wiping their ass with the constitution, they start in on the magna carta.

Fix your damn system then. Cops here are punished if they break the law. Find a politician who isn't "tough on crime" but wants to reform the criminal system from the ground up and fix the issues. And here's a broad generalization: The Americas have a culture of violence from the start.
Compare that to India, the most peaceful country I know. Sure, there are violence there too, but I've never felt like I was in danger anywhere in India, while in Latin America I rarely go out after dusk.

Have a look at a few social studies and start there, and put criminal cops in prison where they belong. Europe doesn't have the same problems, although I will admit that it's not perfect here either.

Terrorist bombed Bombay less than a week ago.

Also: Did you know that India is actually where we get the word 'thug'?
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Thugee

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JA37
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July 19, 2011, 09:54:51 PM
 #33

Terrorist bombed Bombay less than a week ago.

Point being? You're still safer there than in Rio. Or Montevideo. Or ... well you get the point.

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July 19, 2011, 10:41:45 PM
 #34

Terrorist bombed Bombay less than a week ago.

Point being? You're still safer there than in Rio. Or Montevideo. Or ... well you get the point.

The point is that the system is unfixable, no matter where it is put into practice. The government enjoys a monopoly on initiatory violence and is the interpreter as well as enforcer of the rules that limit it's power. Because of this, there are effectively no limits. To make matters worse, the State claims to be the final arbiter of all disputes, including disputes with the state itself.  The system is so twisted that it would be immediately obvious if most of us hadn't been pre-conditioned to arbitrary rule from infancy.

India may or may not be less violent than central America, but what should not be controversial is the fact that there is too much violence in both places and indeed all countries.   

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July 20, 2011, 02:19:30 AM
 #35


 Cops here are punished if they break the law.

Where is "here" ? Canada, USA, UK ? haha. Yeah, read some history mate. BIG conflict of interest, very, very, very, very rare to see them punished, i mostly see them promoted and defended.

It's an intrinsic part of a cop's job to break the law; to do what is illegal for others to do.

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July 20, 2011, 04:50:58 AM
 #36


 Cops here are punished if they break the law.

Where is "here" ? Canada, USA, UK ? haha. Yeah, read some history mate. BIG conflict of interest, very, very, very, very rare to see them punished, i mostly see them promoted and defended.

Crooked cops in Canada are always "punished" by internal reviewers which is akin to punishing a rapist by dropping him on an Amazonian island with a box of Viagra.

I do think some liberty-minded folk overstate the amount of cops who are crooked rather than simply clueless, though.
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July 20, 2011, 04:58:29 AM
 #37

I do think some liberty-minded folk overstate the amount of cops who are crooked rather than simply clueless, though.

Cock-up before conspiracy, eh?

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July 20, 2011, 05:16:19 AM
 #38

I do think some liberty-minded folk overstate the amount of cops who are crooked rather than simply clueless, though.

Cock-up before conspiracy, eh?

I have known a lot of cops in small towns. Some are genuine assholes, others are legitimately nice guys, both tend to be quite clueless in the lower tiers of authority.

If you want to stop police brutality you need to look to the root, not the low level enforcers.
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July 20, 2011, 04:15:44 PM
 #39

There is a lot to learn from some religions, though I'll agree that many parts can be dangerous and misleading.  If you don't take it them too seriously they can be great. 
If there were no religions, the people who seek to control you for their benefit  would just go somewhere else.  In other words, horrible things have been done in the name of religion, but not necessarily because of it.  More likely it was about resources than ideology.

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July 20, 2011, 07:29:25 PM
 #40

There is a lot to learn from some religions, though I'll agree that many parts can be dangerous and misleading.  If you don't take it them too seriously they can be great.

Sure.  However, the risk is that by perpetuating these wrong and dangerous beliefs and passing them off as OK, you increase the likelihood that a child or a non-initiated would come to accept these flawed beliefs as truth.  Then they live their entire life for a lie.

If there were no religions, the people who seek to control you for their benefit  would just go somewhere else.

Explain.  You mean they would submit to states and/or corporate brands?  So since people would anyway submit to something, it is OK to have them submit to religion?  Why not instead empower these helpless people to controlling their own lives instead so they can resist being controlled by the people who seek to control you?  It doesn't necessarily follow that if there were no religions, then people would still be controlled by something else.

In other words, horrible things have been done in the name of religion, but not necessarily because of it.  More likely it was about resources than ideology.

Well, the greatest problem, IMHO, is ignorance.  Ignorance is a problem even greater than just religion.  Which is why it is best to focus on dispelling ignorance whenever possible.  That is why it is important to attack religion on internet forums as we are doing here.

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