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Author Topic: [PRE-SALE][ICO] Petro $PTR - Oil backed crypto currency launched by Venezuela  (Read 26354 times)
happyminer1
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March 08, 2018, 05:23:56 PM
Merited by asdlolciterquit (1)
 #201

As long it is good cause to support people responsible for extra-judicial killings.

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights is a single Jordanian prince (yes prince!) who has attacked Venezuela with totally unsubstantiated claims in various occasions. Wonder why attacking Venezuela makes you a great career...

There are no such thing as "extra-judicial killings" in Venezuela, it's a complete fantasy.

He was unanimously approved approved by the United Nations General Assembly and bases his statements on well documented reports by his office. He surely has better information on Venezuela than you.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2014/06/471002-general-assembly-confirms-jordans-prince-zeid-new-un-human-rights-chief
http://www.ohchr.org/_layouts/15/WopiFrame.aspx?sourcedoc=/Documents/Countries/VE/HCReportVenezuela_1April-31July2017_EN.pdf

A truth and reparation commission has been create last year and is still working on creating exact reports for ALL the victims.

Just an outlet of the government.
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March 08, 2018, 05:31:05 PM
 #202

Indeed Obama declared that. But then only ordered sanctions against a small number of persons. (Seven at first, to be precise.) Do you know the difference between an order and the reasons given for that order?

It's the exact opposite. The sanctions against Venezuelan officials are totally illegal and shameful, but have almost no impact. It's a way to smear and send a political message to all the allies, like in the mafia. The formal declaration of an inexistent "threat" is the way Washington allowed the escalation, from the administration and government, and therefore more sanctions and attacks. All this of course, along with all the other ongoing criminal operations: media blockade, financial crime, violence, coup plots etc.

Enough, you repeated the same question 3 times. Good luck.

And you are avoiding to answer it. Simple fact and reason: Contrary to your false claims, before August 2017 there were only sanctions against a small number of Venezuelan officials.
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March 08, 2018, 05:34:42 PM
 #203

He was unanimously approved approved by the United Nations General Assembly and bases his statements on well documented reports by his office. He surely has better information on Venezuela than you.

He is a politician who has no interest in actually analysing the reality of Venezuela and only follows political needs. Venezuela has an economic crisis. "Human rights" are a political tool defined arbitrarily when needed to justify intromission in the political process.
In Colombia there have been more than 30 political assassination only in 2018. You haven't heard from Washington and the Prince much. Obviously: Colombia is a US militarily occupied country.

You seem desperately confused and desperately copy pasting stuff to justify your hatred.
Venezuela is defending from an aggression, also using the Petro.
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March 08, 2018, 05:36:50 PM
 #204

And you are avoiding to answer it. Simple fact and reason: Contrary to your false claims, before August 2017 there were only sanctions against a small number of Venezuelan officials.

Exactly, before 2017 there were sanctions and those had (purposefully) a serious impact on a country that was already going though a serious crisis.
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March 08, 2018, 05:41:08 PM
 #205

A truth and reparation commission has been create last year and is still working on creating exact reports for ALL the victims.

Just an outlet of the government.

The Truth commission created by Venezuelan Constituent Assembly has produced the ONLY serious existing research at the time of writing, with ALL the victims, names, date, location and circumstances of death (with pictures, media articles and analysis). The UN HR commissioner (like HR organisations HRW or Amnesty) does not have any research even vaguely comparable. Apart from Venezuelanalysis.com that kept track of the victims, nobody else ever worked on the victims. Truth is: NOBODY cares about the victims. Certainly not the ultra-corrupted US funded Venezuelan opposition and its followers.

Obviously: if they did, they had proved that most of the victims were killed by opposition gangs.
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March 08, 2018, 05:45:49 PM
 #206

And you are avoiding to answer it. Simple fact and reason: Contrary to your false claims, before August 2017 there were only sanctions against a small number of Venezuelan officials.

False.

I repeat for the last time. The illegal US sanctions came with a formal declaration of "extraordinary threat". Also, it wasn't a small number: in 2016 and 2017 the number of official threatened by the US became large, making it even more clear to all banks and companies that they shouldn't invest and treat with Venezuela. That's the real political and economic "sanction" in 2015 and 2016. Starting from 2017, the US literally stole billions of USD and assets, property of the Venezuelan State.

All the sanctions had a large, lasting impact on the economy and therefore on the people.
happyminer1
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March 08, 2018, 05:55:00 PM
 #207

And you are avoiding to answer it. Simple fact and reason: Contrary to your false claims, before August 2017 there were only sanctions against a small number of Venezuelan officials.

Exactly, before 2017 there were sanctions and those had (purposefully) a serious impact on a country that was already going though a serious crisis.

But hey, you just said:

Quote
The sanctions against Venezuelan officials are totally illegal and shameful, but have almost no impact.
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March 08, 2018, 06:53:59 PM
 #208

And you are avoiding to answer it. Simple fact and reason: Contrary to your false claims, before August 2017 there were only sanctions against a small number of Venezuelan officials.

Exactly, before 2017 there were sanctions and those had (purposefully) a serious impact on a country that was already going though a serious crisis.

But hey, you just said:

Quote
The sanctions against Venezuelan officials are totally illegal and shameful, but have almost no impact.

You're seriously desperate, and really have time to waste.

US sanctions had a huge impact since 2015 in the financial situation of Venezuela, its diplomatic and commercial relationships. That's a fact, proved by facts and numbers.
The sanctions did not have an impact because of the sanctioned officials themselves.
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March 08, 2018, 06:56:03 PM
 #209

Its the same as the effects of foreign aid policy, that is largely a resource passed from one government onto the largest entities in a country.  The most needy can miss the aid due to logistics problems especially where society and commerce has broken down.   The sanctions wont be as much a problem for high level government officials, they have the apparatus and means to get what they need via a variety of routes.   The most effected will be the powerless who cannot even transport or trade properly, they are the most effected as end users by the sanctions.

So sure I believe both those statements could be true simultaneously.


Here is a video on a possible Swedish Krona related national crypto currency E-Crown.   Apparently almost all transactions in the country are already done in a cashless way  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE-Oe4HGxzo

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happyminer1
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March 08, 2018, 08:31:13 PM
 #210

The sanctions wont be as much a problem for high level government officials, they have the apparatus and means to get what they need via a variety of routes.   The most effected will be the powerless who cannot even transport or trade properly, they are the most effected as end users by the sanctions.

So sure I believe both those statements could be true simultaneously.

You have a good point as far as the sanctions from August 2017 against the government of Venezuela are concerned. Surely many high level government officials are not privately affected by these. (Exception are those who could profit by corruption on the basis of activities interrupted because of sanctions.) But I don't see how for instance the freezing of assets of or travel bans on people like Manuel Eduardo Pérez Urdaneta, Director of the National Police, should affect the powerless negatively or impair their ability to transport or trade.
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March 08, 2018, 08:37:18 PM
 #211

A truth and reparation commission has been create last year and is still working on creating exact reports for ALL the victims.

Just an outlet of the government.

The Truth commission created by Venezuelan Constituent Assembly has produced the ONLY serious existing research at the time of writing, with ALL the victims, names, date, location and circumstances of death[/u] (with pictures, media articles and analysis).

Is the result of this research publicly available? Could you provide a link?
taseenb
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March 08, 2018, 10:38:04 PM
 #212

Is the result of this research publicly available? Could you provide a link?

The first report was in the website of a Ministry or the main government website (it also had a downloadable PDF, very long like 300+ pages), but it's hard to find because of Google political censorship. I cannot find it now. One of the many features of US "democracy". If you are interested, you'll find it.
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March 08, 2018, 10:49:44 PM
Last edit: March 08, 2018, 11:07:05 PM by taseenb
 #213

You have a good point as far as the sanctions from August 2017 against the government of Venezuela are concerned. Surely many high level government officials are not privately affected by these. (Exception are those who could profit by corruption on the basis of activities interrupted because of sanctions.) But I don't see how for instance the freezing of assets of or travel bans on people like Manuel Eduardo Pérez Urdaneta, Director of the National Police, should affect the powerless negatively or impair their ability to transport or trade.

Last time I go back to this. This is how international relations, investments, bank services for States work in the real world: a country sanctioned by the US is an outcast, and all the enslaved US allies and companies will rush to shut their tides with a US declared enemy. If the mafia boss says you are out, you'll be alone. It's a rule. The world is not a democracy, wake up if you are Latin American, or you live in Disneyland? Venezuela today is almost totally isolated in the region, after years it had enjoyed strong support from Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, etc. They have good diplomacy experience and kept strong relations around the world though.

Venezuela is under a constant coup. It has been the case for 2 decades. YES: the sanctions in 2015, 2016 and 2017 have had a strong impact on the economy, that was already in trouble because of the oil price collapse and the global crisis. Even some leftist parties have abandoned Venezuela, mostly because of ignorance and total manipulation of the information, which is a key factor. Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru: the trade with these countries has collapsed since 2014-5, when right wing, US puppet governments started to replace progressive ones.

Now Venezuela imports flour from Russia, basic medicines from India, etc. Nobody wants to trade with V. in the region. It's a war. It's called "dirty war", an undeclared unconventional war, supported by the massive US propaganda apparatus that fabricated a character assassination (Maduro) and a humanitarian crisis (even exaggerating the crisis in the news, which is bad but not as bad as it is represented).

The Petro is a defensive tool, to avoid starvation first and likely to push recovery and development.
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March 08, 2018, 11:16:06 PM
Last edit: March 08, 2018, 11:33:08 PM by taseenb
 #214

Its the same as the effects of foreign aid policy, that is largely a resource passed from one government onto the largest entities in a country.  The most needy can miss the aid due to logistics problems especially where society and commerce has broken down.   The sanctions wont be as much a problem for high level government officials, they have the apparatus and means to get what they need via a variety of routes.   The most effected will be the powerless who cannot even transport or trade properly, they are the most effected as end users by the sanctions.

So sure I believe both those statements could be true simultaneously.


Here is a video on a possible Swedish Krona related national crypto currency E-Crown.   Apparently almost all transactions in the country are already done in a cashless way  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE-Oe4HGxzo

Venezuela has a pretty good welfare, so the sanctions have an impact on the working class but also on the whole economy (including middle-upper classes, that you can read here how hysterical they are). Trump's sanctions have frozen Venezuelan State bank accounts in the US (and also CITGO revenues, a huge Venezuelan company in the US) and they are basically blocked from doing SWIFT transactions, a system controlled by the US.

Therefore they have a hard time paying public debts deadlines and not because they don't have money. That had also a huge impact in oil production, that requires continuous cash flow and investments. They have solutions, like triangulations through various countries, but it's complicated, slow and expensive.  Crypto comes in handy = Petro.

Venezuelans are also pushing digital transactions for payments already. That's because gangs practice another criminal activity called "currency extraction", which works in association with hyper inflation: it means destroying or bringing cash outside of the border, making it very hard to get cash. So people have money in their bank accounts but cannot withdraw enough (so they become hysterical too and blame the government etc!).

In short: the government is not responsible for all the problems. Actually the government is much more responsible for making the problems less dramatic than they could be, by pushing digital payments as much as possible, keeping social investments, public healthcare, education, housing in place and working. Etc...
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March 08, 2018, 11:48:24 PM
 #215

You have a good point as far as the sanctions from August 2017 against the government of Venezuela are concerned. Surely many high level government officials are not privately affected by these. (Exception are those who could profit by corruption on the basis of activities interrupted because of sanctions.) But I don't see how for instance the freezing of assets of or travel bans on people like Manuel Eduardo Pérez Urdaneta, Director of the National Police, should affect the powerless negatively or impair their ability to transport or trade.

Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru: the trade with these countries has collapsed since 2014-5, when right wing, US puppet governments started to replace progressive ones.

Was Correa a right wing, US puppet?

Exports from Ecuador to Venezuela 2014: $234.960 millones
Exports from Ecuador to Venezula 2016: $67.935 millones

Nobody wants to trade with V. in the region.

The problem is simply that Venezuela cannot pay. No conspiracy, but bad economic policy.
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March 09, 2018, 12:15:57 AM
 #216

Is the result of this research publicly available? Could you provide a link?

The first report was in the website of a Ministry or the main government website (it also had a downloadable PDF, very long like 300+ pages), but it's hard to find because of Google political censorship. I cannot find it now. One of the many features of US "democracy". If you are interested, you'll find it.

Obviously the report never was made public.
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March 09, 2018, 12:47:35 AM
 #217

Too stupid it's beyond imagination.
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March 09, 2018, 01:40:34 AM
Last edit: March 09, 2018, 02:05:23 AM by taseenb
 #218

Sadly, most of the Venezuelan middle class is a poor man's surrogate of the average American. This is typical for a Latin American oil rich country that has been de-facto colonised by the US since the beginning of 1900: Venezuelan elites are the oligarchy that has served the US for many decades. They've controlled the governments and all institutions until 1998. Mostly white, some heirs of the Spanish colonialists, used to be in position of privilege compared to the vast majority of the population, ignorant, lazy, racist, violent, anti-socialist fanatics, dreaming a world of white people spending their lives in shopping centres and consuming like Americans and Europeans, without caring about the social and cultural context they live in. The US funded opposition represents these categories, their privilege, and is mostly led (not surprisingly) by billionaires. Some of these leaders control large portions of the private industry and media (mostly TVs and newspapers), some are criminals who have dealt with arms traffic, coup plots, terrorism, violent gangs, corruption etc. They have always been the local representatives of the US interests in Venezuela.

In this thread we can see a good example of that culture: they speak English, some live abroad, and hate the chavistas more than anything else. They are the result of 20 years of frustration and hate, lost elections, failed coups, failed sabotages of any kind etc. For some, this anti-chavista hate is what their families have taught them since they were born. Everything that comes from chavistas is bad because they are not only socialists and often poor workers, they are also guilty of not being enslaved, like them, and guilty of being smart and part of democratic communities, unlike them.

The difference between a chavista demonstration and an opposition demonstration is the happiness and the music: chavistas dance, sing, laugh (CNN won't show you that) while the others are hysterical, insult, sometimes violent (what you see on CNN).

This is part of the report collecting information on the victims of US funded opposition gangs violence in 2017 (do you remember the images of people throwing molotovs to the police?): it happened between April and August, with lower intensity until September. In this period 172 people were killed, most of them by opposition gangs, also with horrendous methods like lynching and burning people alive.

This report is part of the work of a commission created by the Constituent Assembly in August 2017: the Truth Commission, an investigative body that is collecting information from ALL the relatives of the victims and witnesses, to establish reparation programs and the truth. It was published by the Ministry of Communication in this form, a few months ago. Obviously, international media have totally ignored it.

FATAL VICTIMS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE
172 people killed between APRIL – SEPTEMBER 2017

REPORT (PDF, 595 pages): http://minci.gob.ve/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Investigaci%C3%B3n-Period%C3%ADstica-V%C3%ADctimas-Fatales-de-la-Violencia-Pol%C3%ADtica-ABRIL-SEPTIEMBRE-2017-Actualizado-15-09-17-CORREGIDO.pdf

Article (Spanish): http://minci.gob.ve/2018/01/ministerios-entregaron-informe-danos-guarimbas-comision-la-verdad/

This is the national context of social conflict the Petro was born: this and two decades of propaganda explain the hate against the Petro we read here.
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March 09, 2018, 11:25:20 AM
 #219

186.306 of what? petro? if i remenber well 1 petro is 19$, so more that 3.5 million dollars has been raised!

No, 186.306 are just offers you can make on the Petro pre-sale page, without paying (you cannot buy Petros yet, need to wait at least until 20th March, beginning of public ICO). So it's likely that real payments will be lower.
The price of 1 Petro is about $60 USD (Venezuelan oil barrel price - the official price is in the Ministry of Petroleum web page). But there are discounts during the pre-sale and ICO. The total value of the offers is still unknown, but last government statements say it's around 3-4 Billion USD (again, this comes from offers, not real payments). In any case the ICO will be open until all coins (82.000.000) are sold.

Why the pre-sale offers? Because if you make an early offer you can get big discounts, up to 30% on the oil barrel price (only a small part though, see white paper).

Maduro statement on Petro offers (SPANISH): https://www.americaeconomia.com/economia-mercados/finanzas/criptomoneda-venezolana-petro-suma-mas-de-186000-ofertas-de-compras

Official Venezuelan oil barrel price (in YUAN, see bottom of the table for conversion rates): http://www.mpetromin.gob.ve/portalmenpet/secciones.php?option=view&idS=45

thank you for your answer. I give you 1 merit!
So, more or less, they want to "sell" 82 millions barrel of oil!

I don't know how many barrels they have in their underground, but i suppose 50-80 billions, so 82 millions is not so much.

Maduro can't be trusted, but what happening can have a large impact in the crypto world
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March 09, 2018, 02:14:13 PM
 #220

Efficient extraction, production, refinement and transportation are the difficult parts to the sale process.   Venezuela has many reserves but I'm not so sure of the magnitude to economically viable reserves and what percentage to the big potential they have.
This viability varies on the global oil price itself so its hard to say and then it also relys on efficient movement and the quality of the oil that can be extracted as well.  Some oil is favoured over other types, some must have sulphur removed from it.  I believe heavy oil is less in demand then light sweet oil and so on.  The industry knows these details matters, the sanctions also play a part is discouraging and reducing demand and so the effective price Venezuela can get in trade.

Ideally anyone who wants to trade Petro would also have an idea of the oil situation and potential demand for this specific type of oil and where its placed in the world as I guess that'd weigh in on the crypto currency if they do really have a relationship in the market

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