SilkRoad domain Seized?

[CoinHoarder]

From what I've read on bitcointalk.org there are sites that are comparative to SR on the deep net, yes?

There are many other hidden services that sell drugs. The hidden wiki has a list of most of them.

[justusranvier]

So if I say DPR was an anarcho capitalist and also not a nice guy (two things that are very likely to be true), that's an insult, but calling me an authoritarian is not an insult? I think that's rather hypocritical.

Now I'll add on "disingenuous" to "authoritarian". Instead of owning up to what you said, you're now trying to obscure the issue by subtly rewriting history to change your quote into something other than what it was.

You didn't say "DPR was A and B", you said "Because DPR was A and B, we shouldn't be surprised of C".

Let's replace B with a different adjective, just to make the bigotry blindingly obvious for all the spectators:

"By the way - I'm amazed at how many people are surprised that a drug dealer with extreme black tendencies turned out to be not a swell guy! Imagine that!"

You'd never dare say something like that in public, because that group isn't an socially acceptable target for bigotry any more, but you're more than willing to smear anarcho-capitalists the same way because you think no one will call you out on it.

[Severian]

Despite no one here having any way of verifying the truth or falsehood of the allegations, some people are more than happy to to use it to advance their own unrelated agenda. For those people, I doubt the truth actually matters.

Well said and thanks for saying it.

[acoindr]

Guys don't believe the assassination story so quickly. According to the official documents nobody seems to have actually been killed or even exist by the alleged names recovered from Silk Road servers, which have been in FBI custody...

That kind of personality seems totally out of character for DPR. I don't know him but his postings show clear thoughtfulness, like his response to the closing of Atlantis, or his posted rules for SR instead of letting it be an "I don't care what you do, just pay me bitcoins" environment. Hardly seems the type to be ruthless about murder. On the other hand the Feds would look good framed that way, like the heroes who shut down this site with illegal (according to US law) drugs from this clearly evil person.

Before you convict DPR keep in mind the assassination target seems not to exist.

If you read we all agree on the fact DPR was scammed, it's pretty much clear on the affidavit. The thing is that it looks like he was willing to commit that murder.

That's what I'm saying people should not be so quick to believe.

Think of it this way. SR had posted rules for behavior. It wasn't an anything goes Wild West environment. That doesn't sound like the kind of site an immoral ruthless, technically skilled by the way, person would set things up. If SR operated exclusively in Amsterdam, for example, where many drugs are legal then it would be hard to say DPR should have been charged with anything other than operating a professional business. It's only the fact that the site clearly challenges the way things are done in the US that is the problem. Isn't it convenient we now find out DPR was such an immoral a-hole? Good thing the feds found his servers before more people got "hit".

I'm saying we only have one side of the story here, that of the feds.

EDIT: that should say some drugs are "tolerated", but not legal in Amsterdam.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

Heh. So if I say DPR was an anarcho capitalist and also not a nice guy (two things that are very likely to be true), that's an insult, but calling me an authoritarian is not an insult?

Of course it's an insult. I actually said "authoritarian asshole" IIRC. So, yeah, I wanted to insult you, after you broadly compared ancaps like me with potential murderers. I believed I've manage to control my temper better than you did, though.

EDIT: Once more justusrainver put it better than me, so I'll just quote him:

Now I'll add on "disingenuous" to "authoritarian". Instead of owning up to what you said, you're now trying to obscure the issue by subtly rewriting history to change your quote into something other than what it was.

You didn't say "DPR was A and B", you said "Because DPR was A and B, we shouldn't be surprised of C".

Let's replace B with a different adjective, just to make the bigotry blindingly obvious for all the spectators:

"By the way - I'm amazed at how many people are surprised that a drug dealer with extreme black tendencies turned out to be not a swell guy! Imagine that!"

You'd never dare say something like that in public, because that group isn't an socially acceptable target for bigotry any more, but you're more than willing to smear anarcho-capitalists the same way because you think no one will call you out on it.

Briefly: Ulbricht subscribed to a philosophy that boiled down to "the state is inherently bad and must be overthrown". He explicitly said that was his belief several times in public. Why do you think people tolerate or support the state, as a political institution? It's because we know what the world looks like when the state becomes weak or disappears. It looks like Mexico or Somalia. Not some peaceful, non-violent utopia but a place dominated by men like Ulbricht - people who are quite willing to assassinate anyone who gets in the way of their business empire.

Sigh... I won't derail this rapidly growing topic. But you're just ignorant and should read a bit more on ethics and economics.

[Mike Hearn]

That's a terrible analogy. Political views are something you deliberately choose and which influence your actions. Race isn't.

I didn't say "he was an anarcho capitalist thus he was obviously a murder". The and a drug dealer part is pretty damn important!

[Alonzo Ewing]

Briefly: Ulbricht subscribed to a philosophy that boiled down to "the state is inherently bad and must be overthrown". He explicitly said that was his belief several times in public. Why do you think people tolerate or support the state, as a political institution? It's because we know what the world looks like when the state becomes weak or disappears. It looks like Mexico or Somalia. Not some peaceful, non-violent utopia but a place dominated by men like Ulbricht - people who are quite willing to assassinate anyone who gets in the way of their business empire.

Ah, now we're getting down to business!  You interpret no state as "Somalia".  Well no wonder you don't like ancaps.  

But I ask you, if a lack of a state results in gangs perpetually at war with each other, doesn't that imply a need for a world govt?  After all, without a world govt, the national govts would be at perpetual war with each other.  Now granted, nations do war quite frequently, but what explains the relative peace between first world nations?  There's no supra-national govt to keep the peace, so why isn't there perpetual war?

Look, I know from watching your talks that you're a sharp guy.  But it's apparent that if your argument against anarcho-capitalism is that it by default boils down to gangs at war and Somalia, then you don't know the rich history of scholarship around the topic, and you've not taken the time to ruminate on it.  I hope you do.  

[klee]

I guess I will miss my Ritalin 

[gmaxwell]

Page 10 of the complaint claims the site had a section listing hitmen. Is this true??  I thought the site refused to list guns and such... just consensual transactions. Whats the scoop?

[Rampion]

Page 10 of the complaint claims the site had a section listing hitmen. Is this true??  I thought the site refused to list guns and such... just consensual transactions. Whats the scoop?

Yes, the site officially refused that AFAIK. Just note that guns were not listed on SR because DPR said the volumes did not justify operating "The Armory" (as the guns section of SR was named), not because of some sort of ethic or moral choice - but anyhow "The Armory" existed on SR for a while, but it seems it was just unprofitable for DPR.

What I understand from the affidavit is that inside the "services" category there was *one* item on sale which was a "HUGE black market contact list", and that list included hitmen contacts among many other things.

[Jenger]

Page 10 of the complaint claims the site had a section listing hitmen. Is this true??  I thought the site refused to list guns and such... just consensual transactions. Whats the scoop?

That was for a listing of various links in the darknet where you can buy hits.

[Mike Hearn]

Ah, now we're getting down to business!  You interpret no state as "Somalia".  Well no wonder you don't like ancaps.  

I would like to see examples of countries (areas?) which had no formal government and which hosted a sophisticated, peaceful civilisation for some length of time. I think I've read quite a lot of history and I'm struggling to recall any such place.

But I ask you, if a lack of a state results in gangs perpetually at war with each other, doesn't that imply a need for a world govt?

No, it doesn't. The opposite of no government is "some government", not "single world government".

I'm all for limited, local government. That's why the idea I'm authoritarian is so amusing. Go read some of my political posts here or elsewhere. I frequently rail against the USA's attempt to impose its law internationally. Jurisdictional competition is important and useful.

 Now granted, nations do war quite frequently, but what explains the relative peace between first world nations?

It's not just between first world nations. We live in a time of unprecedented peace. Relative to past history there are hardly any wars going on right now.

The reason is: more democracies and better economics. Modern countries are deeply integrated due to lots and lots of trade. Most people don't vote for wars that will immediately make them dramatically poorer.

Look, I know from watching your talks that you're a sharp guy.  But it's apparent that if your argument against anarcho-capitalism is that it by default boils down to gangs at war and Somalia, then you don't know the rich history of scholarship around the topic, and you've not taken the time to ruminate on it.  I hope you do.  

I've actually read some Rothbard. I found his prose to be deeply unconvincing. I respect economists who develop theories and then test them against real world data. Theories that exist in the world of abstract philosophy is how you end up with the deflationary spiral idea - stuff that simply doesn't match observed reality.

Rothbard had a lot of very strange ideas about the nature of cartels and monopolies. DPR was fond of citing him as some kind of authority. But when you read his writings, where are the examples, where are the studies that show his theory matches observed reality better than other theories do? He didn't bother. He asserted some ideas as facts and then engaged in ever more tenuous logical extrapolations. My mind was open and what I found simply didn't win me over.

[murraypaul]

The fact that some idiot thinks I'm "authoritarian" for merely being unsurprised at Ulbricht's true nature just shows how deluded some people really were. You didn't have to be a genius to see that he might be dangerous.

You're an "authoritarian asshole" because you turned an unproven allegation into an indiscriminate political smear against an entire philosophical discipline, including some of the top thinkers in the world today and some of the highest profile and staunchest Bitcoin supporters.

You didn't condemn contracted murder, you used contracted murder as an excuse to condemned people who disagree with you politically.

By the way - I'm amazed at how many people are surprised that a drug dealer with extreme anarcho-capitalist tendencies turned out to be not a swell guy! Imagine that!

Some of the top thinkers in the world today are drug dealers?
I'm sure you've got a cite for that 

[tmbp]

The original Walter White just got caught you guys

[favdesu]

maybe some people change their behavior and move to http://www.i2p2.de/

[klee]

maybe some people change their behavior and move to http://www.i2p2.de/

I am sure sooner or later they can compromise it like tor...or not?

[Gui_0]

I might come under fire here - and I realize at this point in time we have no way of determining if the murder request was real or forged by authorities - but, assuming it is indeed real, I understand what DPR did and why he did it.

I share the opinion that the government has no right to prohibit consenting adults from engaging in a peaceful transaction - the drug trades that SR enabled. It is undeniably true that, should a buyer or seller be caught by Law Enforcement (LE), they would be subject to strict punishment - locked up in a cage, often in extremely unsafe prisons, have their life ruined, and in some jurisdictions even be subject to murder capital punishment.

DPR knew this, and the blackmailer knew this. The blackmailer knew that, if he followed through, he would be subjecting thousands of peaceful individuals who did nothing wrong to prosecution and persecution by LE. The blackmailer knew very well that thousands of peaceful members of SR would be locked up and have their lives ruined.

Consider an analogy: if someone went up to Oskar Schindler and said "I know you are helping Jews escape; if you don't pay me $150k I will tell the Nazis about it", don't you think Schindler had the right to prevent that person from making that known - even if the only way to do so was murder?

[Gui_0]

The fact that some idiot thinks I'm "authoritarian" for merely being unsurprised at Ulbricht's true nature just shows how deluded some people really were. You didn't have to be a genius to see that he might be dangerous.

You're an "authoritarian asshole" because you turned an unproven allegation into an indiscriminate political smear against an entire philosophical discipline, including some of the top thinkers in the world today and some of the highest profile and staunchest Bitcoin supporters.

You didn't condemn contracted murder, you used contracted murder as an excuse to condemned people who disagree with you politically.

By the way - I'm amazed at how many people are surprised that a drug dealer with extreme anarcho-capitalist tendencies turned out to be not a swell guy! Imagine that!

Some of the top thinkers in the world today are drug dealers?
I'm sure you've got a cite for that  

He never said that. He said some of the top thinkers are part of the philosophical discipline (ancapism/libertarianism). Stop twisting words.

[kibblesnbits]

The original Walter White just got caught you guys

And they both had 80 million $ at some point...

[AC130AS]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7833482496/hA9DF1C7D/

The original Walter White just got caught you guys

And they both had 80 million $ at some point...

 lets hope the moderaters dont delete this, lol, good ending though, guy kissed an imaginary box while making meth lol.