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Author Topic: [ANN] Ravencoin [RVN] PoW GPU Mining | Asset Transfer Blockchain (Updated ANN)  (Read 1163550 times)
Subsonic
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December 12, 2018, 05:06:57 AM
 #3681

  Grin ,..hehe,.. Lambooo where i s that guy with Lambooo..and the high BTC during Christmass... beeen ASIC proof coins doesen't idiot proof.. So the end point of kwakers that believe in bright future is ..constantly saying in XXX coin we trust, mighty coin mooning, ua ua..even the coin digs in mud.  Grin If some coin is affected of one or five writings here in forums..what a fu@#$ing coin is that.

diffic stays high even  with 14 k machines.. they came from space ? or from China  Huh Grin Cheesy

RVN now is not GPU friendly anymore , so which are others.. same sh%&t situation like ZEC and XMR , pump high then ASICers came and thats the end of life of the coin. Nothing new. Future is stupid trading with small margins ,just for sport.Not for mining.

Dear DEVs  FORK or Die!
 Cheesy
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Yani @ BitBill wallet
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December 12, 2018, 09:52:45 AM
 #3682

BitBill 3.3 iOS released, RVN supported.
BitBill is a great wallet with a focus on asset security. It supports lots of coins and MultiSig. Have a try and hope you like it.
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December 12, 2018, 10:11:38 AM
 #3683

Is it possible that all these rumors are simply about a possible x16r algorithm for FPGAs?
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December 12, 2018, 11:17:49 AM
 #3684

So i don't get one thing. We're talking about crypto-mining, mining that can be done on GPUs or CPUs (mostly on GPUs).

Currently we're at 4TH and max was about 6TH. A 1080ti kicks out let's say 25MH/s. So that means we have had a maximum of 6.000.000 MH on RVN. Now divide that by 25 and you get 160.000 1080ti's for this coin. Of course not everyone will have only 1080ti's. 1060s cap out at 10MH, 1070s maybe at 14 and so on.

Still back to the 160K 1080ti's (aproximate theoretical calculation), you get let's say 20K miner with 8 1080ti's per miner.

All these number are getting ever lower and closer to what could actually be in the world. I don't think many people are mining on their own GPU or SLI GPUs and even is they are, these numbers i've pushed now are not indicative of ASICs. Don't know about FPGA but 12.000 of those would be enough to fill the network at 6TH.

Now comes the part of total hashpower spread. According to https://ravencoin.network/stats, there is an unknown pool (don't know how this works with the unknown pools) that has 20% oh total hashpower (0.8 TH at the time of writing this, 1.2 at maximim 1,2 TH/s), Suprnova and another pool have 13% each, Beepool has another 9% and so on.

Now going back to splitting the total hashpower, Suprnova has ar this moment a reported hashrate of 2.8 TH spread to almost 15K workers. That is 186MH per worker. Taking into account my own rig and all these numbers, i'm pretty sure that ASICs don't run on this network and honestly i don't really think FPGAs exist also.

I know people will start trying to write-off these calculations. These are estimates, and as long as we don't have a clearer view and clear proof of them existing, i stand by my opinion that these doesn't exist.

P.S.: how much would an ASIC kick out by your own opinions? 1-2-3 GHs? do the math Smiley
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December 12, 2018, 12:18:46 PM
 #3685

Do you have factual information or are you just guesstimating.


This is a pretty ironic statement from you considering this discussion involves a claim by you for which you have provided no factual information.
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December 12, 2018, 02:00:56 PM
 #3686

when 10c?
 Tongue Cheesy

$ADK ~ watch & learn...
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December 12, 2018, 03:44:19 PM
 #3687

 Grin
when 10c?
 Tongue Cheesy


...Once upon a time.. in near Galaxy..humans on Earth mine RVN ..was 2018 dec. .... now 2450 year ..RVN coin up to 0.20 cents..  Grin Grin
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December 12, 2018, 05:39:55 PM
 #3688

Version 2.2.0 of the Ravencoin QT wallet is now available for download at:

https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin/releases

This update gives the QT wallet a facelift (including a great looking dark mode) as well as a few minor bug fixes.
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December 12, 2018, 06:43:31 PM
 #3689

Do you have factual information or are you just guesstimating.


This is a pretty ironic statement from you considering this discussion involves a claim by you for which you have provided no factual information.

Provides no factual information? Primary sources are actually listed as factual information. If someone was at the beach and said it, that makes them a source, not a picture of it. Those are all Primary sources, but maybe you missed that in elementary school. Ironic how 5th grade education can destroy your post.

It has been stated in multiple chinese chats so that would be primary and secondary sources, and GPUHoarder knows about X16R ASICs is a primary person source.

The company that has them or people using them will not state information about them as Tron has stated he will take ASICs offline.

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December 12, 2018, 06:48:03 PM
 #3690

So i don't get one thing. We're talking about crypto-mining, mining that can be done on GPUs or CPUs (mostly on GPUs).

Currently we're at 4TH and max was about 6TH. A 1080ti kicks out let's say 25MH/s. So that means we have had a maximum of 6.000.000 MH on RVN. Now divide that by 25 and you get 160.000 1080ti's for this coin. Of course not everyone will have only 1080ti's. 1060s cap out at 10MH, 1070s maybe at 14 and so on.

Still back to the 160K 1080ti's (aproximate theoretical calculation), you get let's say 20K miner with 8 1080ti's per miner.

All these number are getting ever lower and closer to what could actually be in the world. I don't think many people are mining on their own GPU or SLI GPUs and even is they are, these numbers i've pushed now are not indicative of ASICs. Don't know about FPGA but 12.000 of those would be enough to fill the network at 6TH.

Now comes the part of total hashpower spread. According to https://ravencoin.network/stats, there is an unknown pool (don't know how this works with the unknown pools) that has 20% oh total hashpower (0.8 TH at the time of writing this, 1.2 at maximim 1,2 TH/s), Suprnova and another pool have 13% each, Beepool has another 9% and so on.

Now going back to splitting the total hashpower, Suprnova has ar this moment a reported hashrate of 2.8 TH spread to almost 15K workers. That is 186MH per worker. Taking into account my own rig and all these numbers, i'm pretty sure that ASICs don't run on this network and honestly i don't really think FPGAs exist also.

I know people will start trying to write-off these calculations. These are estimates, and as long as we don't have a clearer view and clear proof of them existing, i stand by my opinion that these doesn't exist.

P.S.: how much would an ASIC kick out by your own opinions? 1-2-3 GHs? do the math Smiley

I couldnt state how much ASICs are pushing out as it depends on efficiency and size. Also you dont believe FPGAs exist on the network when numbers have already been stated? Maybe i need a tinfoil hat on to continue this argument. Your trying to guess that there is only GPUs on the network without any actual information to your statement except a worker count on Suprnova which averages 7-8 1080tis per worker.
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December 12, 2018, 06:58:02 PM
 #3691


I couldnt state how much ASICs are pushing out as it depends on efficiency and size. Also you dont believe FPGAs exist on the network when numbers have already been stated?
I don't know about ASICs , but FPGA exist. I thought that's widely known.

I have no affiliate link, no bounty, no signature campaign... Only Proof Of Work!
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December 12, 2018, 07:58:24 PM
 #3692

Do you have factual information or are you just guesstimating.


This is a pretty ironic statement from you considering this discussion involves a claim by you for which you have provided no factual information.

Provides no factual information? Primary sources are actually listed as factual information. If someone was at the beach and said it, that makes them a source, not a picture of it. Those are all Primary sources, but maybe you missed that in elementary school. Ironic how 5th grade education can destroy your post.

It has been stated in multiple chinese chats so that would be primary and secondary sources, and GPUHoarder knows about X16R ASICs is a primary person source.

The company that has them or people using them will not state information about them as Tron has stated he will take ASICs offline.




The difference is in the level of proof that different folks in the community require to reach the level of concern (apologies if that's not the right word) you seem to be at. It appears that "Chinese chats" and a post about hashrates for bitstreams that are not available to be downloaded are enough for you to be concerned ..... for others it is not.

Not sure why you felt the need to descend into personal attacks, but that does seem to be your discussion method with people who do not agree with you from what I've seen on here and discord. So be it.
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December 12, 2018, 08:32:48 PM
 #3693

Maybe i need a tinfoil hat on to continue this argument.

You don't have to argue at all, on here or discord.

Just write the code that changes RVN to counter whatever you think the threat is, and submit it as a pull request.
You can even put comments in the code explaining your position.

Then the community will agree with you by running your code .... or not.

The method you are currently using - repeatedly referring to discussions in Chinese chat rooms and web posts with FPGA hashrates - and then replying to folks who don't share your level of concern with "LOLs" and astonishment that they can't see what you clearly see, doesn't seem to be working for you, so you might want to give the suggestion above a try. Or alternatively, sell your RVN and move on to another coin and community.
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December 12, 2018, 08:45:55 PM
 #3694

So i don't get one thing. We're talking about crypto-mining, mining that can be done on GPUs or CPUs (mostly on GPUs).

Currently we're at 4TH and max was about 6TH. A 1080ti kicks out let's say 25MH/s. So that means we have had a maximum of 6.000.000 MH on RVN. Now divide that by 25 and you get 160.000 1080ti's for this coin. Of course not everyone will have only 1080ti's. 1060s cap out at 10MH, 1070s maybe at 14 and so on.

Still back to the 160K 1080ti's (aproximate theoretical calculation), you get let's say 20K miner with 8 1080ti's per miner.

All these number are getting ever lower and closer to what could actually be in the world. I don't think many people are mining on their own GPU or SLI GPUs and even is they are, these numbers i've pushed now are not indicative of ASICs. Don't know about FPGA but 12.000 of those would be enough to fill the network at 6TH.

Now comes the part of total hashpower spread. According to https://ravencoin.network/stats, there is an unknown pool (don't know how this works with the unknown pools) that has 20% oh total hashpower (0.8 TH at the time of writing this, 1.2 at maximim 1,2 TH/s), Suprnova and another pool have 13% each, Beepool has another 9% and so on.

Now going back to splitting the total hashpower, Suprnova has ar this moment a reported hashrate of 2.8 TH spread to almost 15K workers. That is 186MH per worker. Taking into account my own rig and all these numbers, i'm pretty sure that ASICs don't run on this network and honestly i don't really think FPGAs exist also.

I know people will start trying to write-off these calculations. These are estimates, and as long as we don't have a clearer view and clear proof of them existing, i stand by my opinion that these doesn't exist.

P.S.: how much would an ASIC kick out by your own opinions? 1-2-3 GHs? do the math Smiley

I couldnt state how much ASICs are pushing out as it depends on efficiency and size. Also you dont believe FPGAs exist on the network when numbers have already been stated? Maybe i need a tinfoil hat on to continue this argument. Your trying to guess that there is only GPUs on the network without any actual information to your statement except a worker count on Suprnova which averages 7-8 1080tis per worker.

Of course i'm gonna base some math on clear data that i can find. Again all those numbers i talked about are just guesses. As far as I am concerned, everything you said is just in the realm of gossip. Your "primary sources" on which you are so sure are just other people, like you, talking in chats. That is just talk and Gossip. By the same means i can start talking in different circles about some awesome mining equipment for BTC/ETH or who knows what else and if i have enough aliases and enough chats in which i talk about them there is surely gonna be some dude like you starting to believe. It's necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't mean it's true.

Maybe i was unclear however in how i mentioned this but i'm not 100% convinced that there are no ASICs or FPGA. I just used info that you provided, and info that is available. Everybody talks about FPGAs at 500MH/s, that's 12 USD per card per day. 360 per month. FPGAs usually are better that GPUs and ASICs are much better than FPGAs. You could say easily 2-3 GH/s. When you take these numbers and put them in a real equation (which i sincerely advise you to do) you'll see that either it doesn't add up or they're just not that many of them. (it would be bad if they exist and it's just .... 10 of them cause that would mean that there are gonna be more soon).

Bottom line, let's not be all that paranoid and see where it goes. Maybe you're gonna be proven right or maybe not. Maybe RVN will "moon" as so many here dream, or maybe it will die, as Subsonic keeps saying endlessly (and quite boring by now).

P.S.: Subsonic, what is your interest in convincing everyone RVN is gonna fail. You think it will, so stay away from it, save your money if that helps and that is all. What do you gain my trying to convine people of your ideeas?
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December 12, 2018, 08:59:35 PM
 #3695

Do you have factual information or are you just guesstimating.


This is a pretty ironic statement from you considering this discussion involves a claim by you for which you have provided no factual information.

Provides no factual information? Primary sources are actually listed as factual information. If someone was at the beach and said it, that makes them a source, not a picture of it. Those are all Primary sources, but maybe you missed that in elementary school. Ironic how 5th grade education can destroy your post.

It has been stated in multiple chinese chats so that would be primary and secondary sources, and GPUHoarder knows about X16R ASICs is a primary person source.

The company that has them or people using them will not state information about them as Tron has stated he will take ASICs offline.




The difference is in the level of proof that different folks in the community require to reach the level of concern (apologies if that's not the right word) you seem to be at. It appears that "Chinese chats" and a post about hashrates for bitstreams that are not available to be downloaded are enough for you to be concerned ..... for others it is not.

Not sure why you felt the need to descend into personal attacks, but that does seem to be your discussion method with people who do not agree with you from what I've seen on here and discord. So be it.

Lets see. FPGAs are publicly available, but you believe there are no x16r bitstreams. Okay then. As you cannot counter again, because you believe sources of people that have seen and heard of the unit are not sources or proof. Also no the chinese chat groups are not on about FPGA Bitstreams, they talk about a lot of things. Lyra ASICs were talked about them in advance, and many other ASICs in advance and less than 3 months later public posts come out about these ASICs. I remember people saying Lyra wont have ASICs, and so on, when i stated they were already talking about running them in the groups.

For others its not? Inside of the RVN Whitepaper it specifically stated ASIC resistance, and Tron specifically stated they will fork away ASICs. Monero had similar things, and then later found that there were plenty of ASIC farms when the Monero team was denying ASICs. I guess everyone is fine with Zooko moments where they claim ASIC resistance then accept it. X16R is not a hard algo to make an ASIC for, it was just the question of whether its worth it or not. Literally when X16R came out there was already discussions about how easy an ASIC would be done if someone had the funding.

"Discussion method with people who do not agree"? Are you asking about the person who didnt believe there were even FPGA bitstreams, or are you talking about your lack of 5th grade education and understanding of sources that you attempted to attack me with? Where you tried to act like a smart ass, but didnt have the simplest understanding of what you were even talking about.

Maybe i need a tinfoil hat on to continue this argument.

You don't have to argue at all, on here or discord.

Just write the code that changes RVN to counter whatever you think the threat is, and submit it as a pull request.
You can even put comments in the code explaining your position.

Then the community will agree with you by running your code .... or not.

The method you are currently using - repeatedly referring to discussions in Chinese chat rooms and web posts with FPGA hashrates - and then replying to folks who don't share your level of concern with "LOLs" and astonishment that they can't see what you clearly see, doesn't seem to be working for you, so you might want to give the suggestion above a try. Or alternatively, sell your RVN and move on to another coin and community.

Yes i am going to go ahead and spend time to update RVN with no reward. Where the Developers of this coin are being paid by Medici to develop it and follow their supposed "Whitepaper". Then hope for 80% hashrate to approve the code when they had a hard time getting the Asset Layer approved. Yeah someone is just going to randomly do the work that the devs get paid to do.

Maybe english is not your first language so you have a hard time understanding? Do not worry, i offloaded all of my RVN at 900-950 Sats. I am not going to sit here and hold RVN when its known it will go down.

Its funny how you say you have seen me in the Discord, then are judgemental about my actions in discord? Hmm, thats funny as i have been in the Discord since March and have helped many people with mining and other various things too. But lets hide behind your random username on Bitcointalk to try and talk bad even though you lack a 5th grade understanding on basic things.

Its funny because you know prevention is better than stopping it after it occurs. If there are credible sources like GPUHoarder, OGAC, and others along with chats about the ASICs in private mining groups, then you can pretty much confirm that X16R has an ASIC. Its not a complex thing to create mulitple ASIC chips and run a sequencer, etc. There is no ASIC resistance if you believe the Algo is the resistance just because it is random and has multiple algos. Thats like saying 100 dollars is change resistant because you have so many different coin and bill combinations that have to come together to break it. ASIC resistance does not come from randomizing algos it comes from a belief that you will remove ASICs when they are created or believed to be created. Or perform something like Monero after nearly the same thing that is occurring with RVN and perform planned forks to prevent or detour ASIC creation.
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December 12, 2018, 09:20:19 PM
 #3696

So i don't get one thing. We're talking about crypto-mining, mining that can be done on GPUs or CPUs (mostly on GPUs).

Currently we're at 4TH and max was about 6TH. A 1080ti kicks out let's say 25MH/s. So that means we have had a maximum of 6.000.000 MH on RVN. Now divide that by 25 and you get 160.000 1080ti's for this coin. Of course not everyone will have only 1080ti's. 1060s cap out at 10MH, 1070s maybe at 14 and so on.

Still back to the 160K 1080ti's (aproximate theoretical calculation), you get let's say 20K miner with 8 1080ti's per miner.

All these number are getting ever lower and closer to what could actually be in the world. I don't think many people are mining on their own GPU or SLI GPUs and even is they are, these numbers i've pushed now are not indicative of ASICs. Don't know about FPGA but 12.000 of those would be enough to fill the network at 6TH.

Now comes the part of total hashpower spread. According to https://ravencoin.network/stats, there is an unknown pool (don't know how this works with the unknown pools) that has 20% oh total hashpower (0.8 TH at the time of writing this, 1.2 at maximim 1,2 TH/s), Suprnova and another pool have 13% each, Beepool has another 9% and so on.

Now going back to splitting the total hashpower, Suprnova has ar this moment a reported hashrate of 2.8 TH spread to almost 15K workers. That is 186MH per worker. Taking into account my own rig and all these numbers, i'm pretty sure that ASICs don't run on this network and honestly i don't really think FPGAs exist also.

I know people will start trying to write-off these calculations. These are estimates, and as long as we don't have a clearer view and clear proof of them existing, i stand by my opinion that these doesn't exist.

P.S.: how much would an ASIC kick out by your own opinions? 1-2-3 GHs? do the math Smiley

I couldnt state how much ASICs are pushing out as it depends on efficiency and size. Also you dont believe FPGAs exist on the network when numbers have already been stated? Maybe i need a tinfoil hat on to continue this argument. Your trying to guess that there is only GPUs on the network without any actual information to your statement except a worker count on Suprnova which averages 7-8 1080tis per worker.

Of course i'm gonna base some math on clear data that i can find. Again all those numbers i talked about are just guesses. As far as I am concerned, everything you said is just in the realm of gossip. Your "primary sources" on which you are so sure are just other people, like you, talking in chats. That is just talk and Gossip. By the same means i can start talking in different circles about some awesome mining equipment for BTC/ETH or who knows what else and if i have enough aliases and enough chats in which i talk about them there is surely gonna be some dude like you starting to believe. It's necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't mean it's true.

Maybe i was unclear however in how i mentioned this but i'm not 100% convinced that there are no ASICs or FPGA. I just used info that you provided, and info that is available. Everybody talks about FPGAs at 500MH/s, that's 12 USD per card per day. 360 per month. FPGAs usually are better that GPUs and ASICs are much better than FPGAs. You could say easily 2-3 GH/s. When you take these numbers and put them in a real equation (which i sincerely advise you to do) you'll see that either it doesn't add up or they're just not that many of them. (it would be bad if they exist and it's just .... 10 of them cause that would mean that there are gonna be more soon).

Bottom line, let's not be all that paranoid and see where it goes. Maybe you're gonna be proven right or maybe not. Maybe RVN will "moon" as so many here dream, or maybe it will die, as Subsonic keeps saying endlessly (and quite boring by now).

P.S.: Subsonic, what is your interest in convincing everyone RVN is gonna fail. You think it will, so stay away from it, save your money if that helps and that is all. What do you gain my trying to convine people of your ideeas?

Its funny how you try and say "some dude like you" trying to act like im lower than you when you believe FPGAs have no development or active bitstreams for X16R. I bet you fell for the whole Acorn miner too, and are sad with your units that cant even accelerate your GPUs. Unlike you, i will run data and calculations to understand new products, etc. Run in the Discord and you could see for yourself, when i stated FPGAs will be delayed, Acorns were not worth it, etc. So you could try and speculate your statements, but you are wrong. Also the groups im talking about are not just anyone can join and start spewing shit, but thats probably what you believe everything is? I heard about X16R ASICs in the chat before large sources started saying they have seen them and could confirm them. Just like Lyra ASICs that people didnt believe was true months before public information. Your little Telegrams, Discords, and reddit are not the same as every other chat group online. But i mean you believe everyone on Suprnova is running 7-8 1080tis equivalent or that FPGAs are some unicorn equipment that cannot be developed to mine on.

Well your mathmatics on "clear data" are no way even usable. You are taking Suprnova and trying to base your data off their worker count and hashrate which they do not require a new worker for every mining computer. Someone can take a computer and run 1 miner name per GPU, or 1 miner name for 100 GPUs. To say that the average hashrate per worker is equivalent to 7-8 1080TIs is pretty insane to believe that that could be a usable number. Many people are mining on there with 1 gpu, then you have users with multiple rigs to the same worker name, etc.

BCU1525 at 325mh yes would be low profit, but when you dont have many algos that can withstand large number of FPGAs without drastically damaging profits that is a good number. CVP at 500mh is low but when you need a lot on a single algo to make money its not bad. Public FPGA bitstreams are near worthless compared to X16R, but the thing is all the good Bitstreams will most likely end up being Private. I am not stating whether X16R is heavily used by FPGAs, as 1000 BCU1525 would only perform 300gh at an initial cost of 3million+. ASIC development isnt much more than that cost for a large sized process. Ofcourse there will be FPGAs on the network though through private bitstreams. In January 2019 - March 2019 FPGA running count will greatly increase as a lot of private orders were placed in q3-q4 from private companies. Will these all go on RVN, NO, but a good amount will go on RVN from Private mines due to RVNs ability to withhold a large amount of FPGAs without greatly damaging profits.

Ofcourse with ASIC release they will not put a large amount of ASICs on the network at once. They do not want to be caught. Start up x amount during these slow times, then during pumps like the one in October you can run more. You play the game to not get caught when a lead dev stated they would take down ASICs when it was found to be online. The pump in October was substantial enough that they could have made back majority of their costs for development if it was running since September as some high crypto members have stated.

ASICs will run privately until it is not worth using them anymore, as Tron stated he would take down ASICs. If it is a big manufacturer then they would sell the ASICs when they are not worth mining with anymore on people hoping to run for quick profits like Bitmain tactics have been in the past (not saying its bitmain).
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December 12, 2018, 09:36:09 PM
Last edit: December 12, 2018, 09:46:26 PM by fkjnfndjn
 #3697

Regulater,

I appreciate your passion for this topic, but you might consider working on your anger management.

Sounds like you've taken appropriate personal action to avoid the effects of the RVN community not heeding your warnings, so I'm not sure why a guy who is as smart as you seem to think you are is wasting so much time trying to convince the ignorant through verbose ranting responses, but I'll assume you just enjoy it as sport.

Good luck to you.
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December 12, 2018, 09:45:29 PM
 #3698

I admit ravencoin did have a very broad community, even I think some of them are very fanatic, we just have to discuss in the forum do not use anger or whatever it was, the community help one another should be.

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December 13, 2018, 01:45:51 AM
 #3699

I think this guy need a big cup of RavenCoin.

On another note: I really like the new wallet.
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December 13, 2018, 05:20:19 AM
 #3700

Aismen :

 "Bottom line, let's not be all that paranoid and see where it goes. Maybe you're gonna be proven right or maybe not. Maybe RVN will "moon" as so many here dream, or maybe it will die, as Subsonic keeps saying endlessly (and quite boring by now).

P.S.: Subsonic, what is your interest in convincing everyone RVN is gonna fail. You think it will, so stay away from it, save your money if that helps and that is all. What do you gain my trying to convine people of your ideeas? "


Dear Aismen, one thing is boring here, and it is constantly repeating ,in that case RVN how great,how future is, how people supporting that..etc..this is close to insane.If you make a vote section..where people to vote what think about coins the only result will be MONEY.
I'm angry because I put a lot of money in my machines, and nothing is going right-pump dump bla, future...at the end of the year...red flag. Another thing is that all is misinformation  nothing is clear .Nobody explains nothing.DEVs get rich ,miners..who care miners? When DEVs stop care about who makes them rich..that coin is dead.
You are not the person  who will say where to stay! ..only because i say opposite on most of the kwakers in case ,like you. Reality is today !If you mine on minus ok, that's ok.I don't want to mine on minus ,am I bad guy?

My writing is to wake up blind people to get the reality.Reality is today. Today BTC and RVN which is related to BTC is bad. We loose money,that's fact. May be you gain money on minus, don't know.
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