How do we get the women on board?

[LH66]

Two very practical examples:

1. There is NO way I would recommend to my female relatives or friends to come here to learn more about btc. No frickin' way. It is just not a safe place for women to be.

2. I won't recommend btc to them either, not at this time. There is no easy way for them to get into the btc market, and no easy way for them to store btc safely. Crimony my client still crashes regularly and I haven't figured out why. I would be embarassed to tell my friends to download it. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for it. But I can't recommend it to my female friends at this time.

Having said these things, I believe in the idea behind btc and that is why I am still here. But I know I'm unusual.

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[mmartoccia]

This article was posted today which is very apropos to this thread.  Futurity.org – Sex appeal: Women kiss science goodbye http://bit.ly/q6hMWk  < Not terribly surprising.

[timmey]

2. I won't recommend btc to them either, not at this time. There is no easy way for them to get into the btc market, and no easy way for them to store btc safely. Crimony my client still crashes regularly and I haven't figured out why. I would be embarassed to tell my friends to download it. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for it. But I can't recommend it to my female friends at this time.

Bitcoin is still beta and isn't usable for average jane nor joe yet.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Women can't come here to be educated without being offended or verbally harassed. For example, there is somebody here who has, as his sig, a site for bitporn. Do the board mods really believe that women want to see that sort of thing?

I have porn advertisement in my signature too but I don't intend to offend anyone or harassed you. I do not use banners or oversized font size, my signature is far less annoying than Phinnaeus Gage's signature and his image spam posts in every thread to advertise his leather wallets. (Sorry Phinnaeus Gage   )
But I agree with you that this board isn't really made for women, it's a male nerd club.

(I think your apology is sincere, timmey, but allow me to address your statement below)

I'm going to nip this issue in the bud right now! Everything I do on this board is for the betterment of Bitcoin. I see no profits from the sale of these wallets. Yes, I comment on many thread and my signature is now seen. But I don't press the leather wallet issue in those threads, although I did do such for a very brief period of time, and because of a remark by another member, I ceased doing that. Now your remark will make me consider changing the font size a little. I am doing the same exact type of postings I did prior to developing the Bitcoin wallets--posting my thoughts, albeit sometimes weird.

I want to thank timmey for bringing this to my attention. I realize the mistake I made. Since I saw other advertising signatures using large fonts, I thought it was okay to do such. Although it's allowed, it may not be a good idea to follow those examples.

With that said, anybody want to buy a...

[RandyFolds]

So these forums are not safe for women, not at all. Women can't come here to be educated without being offended or verbally harassed. For example, there is somebody here who has, as his sig, a site for bitporn. Do the board mods really believe that women want to see that sort of thing? Do they think intelligent, business oriented women don't notice or care about that?

I think it boils down to personal sensitivity. Practically all my partners (and my country is more conservative than the States) had no problems with porn and would even suggest watching it together. Of course I suppose you might not consider the likes of a double-degree holding lawyer and bankers intelligent or business oriented but...

Also, is any woman here seriously being harrassed (the definition of which is debatable as well) for nothing except the fact she's a woman?

I don't think women are given too much shit on this thread, save one particularly drama-and-insult-filled thread. I find myself holding back from trolling down on the people I know are women. Men want to protect women; it's their instinct if they are decent human beings.

LH66: Do women patronize gas stations and liquor stores where pornography is sold? It seems a fair analogy to merely the word porn appearing in someone's signature. You are taking quite a moral stance here, and I am not sure the rest of the world agrees with you.

[LH66]

I don't think women are given too much shit on this thread, save one particularly drama-and-insult-filled thread. I find myself holding back from trolling down on the people I know are women. Men want to protect women; it's their instinct if they are decent human beings.

That's good to know, thank you, but that has not been  my experience here.

LH66: Do women patronize gas stations and liquor stores where pornography is sold? It seems a fair analogy to merely the word porn appearing in someone's signature. You are taking quite a moral stance here, and I am not sure the rest of the world agrees with you.

It makes me very sad to think that, as a woman, I have to keep defending my objection to porn advertisements, as if I'm some sort of anomaly. Regardless, my question remains: where are the women? Why aren't they here? MIGHT it have anything to do with the issues I mentioned?

[geek-trader]

LH66, you have made several good points.  This forum is pretty troll infested.  Why do you think bitcoin.org moved us into the ghetto?

However, I do take issue with your objection to *text* porn links in member's sigs.  Porn has ALWAYS helped new technology.  It spurred the adoption of the VHS player.  It certainly helped the internet become popular.  This article http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2002/mar/03/internetnews.observerfocus even argues it drove adoption of mobile phones.

Bitcoin is a liberating technology.  It frees us from government control.  This means a lot of things, but some of the things it means is we are free to spend it as we wish, on gambling, and donations to organizations the government would rather did not exist (wikileaks), and yes, on porn.

Also, many bitcoin supporters lean libertarian.  I am one.  A liberal-libertarian, but libertarian none the less. Libertarians HATE to be told what to do.  We especially hate it when it's the government doing the telling.  So, we love free speech.  That means that, if we want to say what we want to say, we must tolerate it when other people say things we don't want to hear.

That doesn't mean we can't argue with them.

I also would not recommend this forum to many of my friends.  There are a lot of asshats here.  But they are asshats to everyone.

Eventually, bitcoin will get a forum thats a lot less toll infested.  Some users are working on this one: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/30763/bitcoin-crypto-currency

Thanks

[RandyFolds]

I don't think women are given too much shit on this thread, save one particularly drama-and-insult-filled thread. I find myself holding back from trolling down on the people I know are women. Men want to protect women; it's their instinct if they are decent human beings.

That's good to know, thank you, but that has not been  my experience here.

LH66: Do women patronize gas stations and liquor stores where pornography is sold? It seems a fair analogy to merely the word porn appearing in someone's signature. You are taking quite a moral stance here, and I am not sure the rest of the world agrees with you.

It makes me very sad to think that, as a woman, I have to keep defending my objection to porn advertisements, as if I'm some sort of anomaly. Regardless, my question remains: where are the women? Why aren't they here? MIGHT it have anything to do with the issues I mentioned?

I hate to even get into this, but have women, historically, ever been into gaming in any form? That's what bitcoin is...a game where you kill blocks instead of orcs. I don't know many women who play Halo, but you can hardly claim that the game in and of itself is somehow driving women away.

Look around. The proof is in the pudding. I don't know why it is the way it is.

[LH66]

LH66, you have made several good points.  This forum is pretty troll infested.  Why do you think bitcoin.org moved us into the ghetto?

Thanks. I appreciate the tone and spirit of your post. I would like to address your assertion here:

However, I do take issue with your objection to *text* porn links in member's sigs.  Porn has ALWAYS helped new technology.  It spurred the adoption of the VHS player.  It certainly helped the internet become popular.  This article http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2002/mar/03/internetnews.observerfocus even argues it drove adoption of mobile phones.

First, I cannot believe that porn ALWAYS helps new technology. That is a very strong statement. I seriously doubt it influenced the light bulb or gasoline engine, just to name a couple things.

But in a spirit of honest inquiry I read the article you linked. I then located the actual source document used. It was an essay written in 1996 by a lawyer. He makes the general case you outline here. He has some books he referenced at the bottom of his article but I did not locate those. Here's the essay:

http://www.law.indiana.edu/fclj/pubs/v49/no1/johnson.html

Frankly I'm not going to believe what he's saying without more research into his sources. I also find it interesting that his paper was written in 1996 yet nobody else has come forth with similar research.

In my search I located an interesting thread on snopes.com about the vhs vs. betamax issue. Here is what snopes had to say:

"Porn was predominantly put into VHS format because customers were already favoring that format, for all the familiar reasons (longer tapes, non-proprietary players, etc.).

Realistically, if the formats had been runnning neck-and-neck, why would producers of video material (porn or otherwise) have eliminated half their potential market right off the bat by opting to make their products available in only one format?

- snopes"

Bitcoin is a liberating technology.  It frees us from government control.  This means a lot of things, but some of the things it means is we are free to spend it as we wish, on gambling, and donations to organizations the government would rather did not exist (wikileaks), and yes, on porn.

I agree.

Also, many bitcoin supporters lean libertarian.  I am one.  A liberal-libertarian, but libertarian none the less. Libertarians HATE to be told what to do.  We especially hate it when it's the government doing the telling.  So, we love free speech.  That means that, if we want to say what we want to say, we must tolerate it when other people say things we don't want to hear.

That doesn't mean we can't argue with them.

Lord knows I am all for toleration. But it has to be applied across the board and in both directions. Toleration applied in one direction only is not toleration. In other words, when somebody has a legitimate complaint, such as mine about the porm ad in relation to increasing btc adoption among women, shouldn't my view be tolerated? Shouldn't others tolerate it when I'm saying something they don't want to hear? (especially when it could have a very positive impact on that one thing we all believe in, btc?)

[TiagoTiago]

Just a note here, there are plenty respectable women out there that enjoy porn, and plenty prudish heterosexual males as well; you can't generalize all women feel the same way as you do just 'cause they got a vagina too, each individual woman is a separate person, not a carbon copy of a stereotype.

[Xephan]

Lord knows I am all for toleration. But it has to be applied across the board and in both directions. Toleration applied in one direction only is not toleration. In other words, when somebody has a legitimate complaint, such as mine about the porm ad in relation to increasing btc adoption among women, shouldn't my view be tolerated? Shouldn't others tolerate it when I'm saying something they don't want to hear? (especially when it could have a very positive impact on that one thing we all believe in, btc?)

The issue is that your complaint is only applicable to a subset. There's no data to prove that removing text porn links will lead to increased female participation in Bitcoin. If anything, early adopters regardless of gender, tend to be more adventurous and less likely to be bothered by something like a text link. Now if there was some animated porn gif which a person cannot help seeing once a page loads that you are objecting to, I would and I believe others too, would support your push to get those disallowed.

[elggawf]

First, I cannot believe that porn ALWAYS helps new technology. That is a very strong statement. I seriously doubt it influenced the light bulb or gasoline engine, just to name a couple things.

Fun fact: the porn industry backed HD-DVD standard, and it lost. Porn is not as powerful a force as one might believe.

The internet exploded with pornography because it was, for the end consumer, very very cheap. Have you guys ever actually priced paying for pornography offline? Maybe it was just the store I wandered into out of morbid curiosity, but some of that crap was $40+ per video. Compare that to internet, and it's easy to see why there was a flood of pornography, though I don't think that helped with adoption of the internet.

[Gabi]

First, I cannot believe that porn ALWAYS helps new technology. That is a very strong statement. I seriously doubt it influenced the light bulb or gasoline engine, just to name a couple things.

Fun fact: the porn industry backed HD-DVD standard, and it lost. Porn is not as powerful a force as one might believe.

The internet exploded with pornography because it was, for the end consumer, very very cheap. Have you guys ever actually priced paying for pornography offline? Maybe it was just the store I wandered into out of morbid curiosity, but some of that crap was $40+ per video. Compare that to internet, and it's easy to see why there was a flood of pornography, though I don't think that helped with adoption of the internet.

The internet is for porn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWEjvCRPrCo

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I don't think women are given too much shit on this thread, save one particularly drama-and-insult-filled thread. I find myself holding back from trolling down on the people I know are women. Men want to protect women; it's their instinct if they are decent human beings.

That's good to know, thank you, but that has not been  my experience here.

LH66: Do women patronize gas stations and liquor stores where pornography is sold? It seems a fair analogy to merely the word porn appearing in someone's signature. You are taking quite a moral stance here, and I am not sure the rest of the world agrees with you.

It makes me very sad to think that, as a woman, I have to keep defending my objection to porn advertisements, as if I'm some sort of anomaly. Regardless, my question remains: where are the women? Why aren't they here? MIGHT it have anything to do with the issues I mentioned?

I hate to even get into this, but have women, historically, ever been into gaming in any form? That's what bitcoin is...a game where you kill blocks instead of orcs. I don't know many women who play Halo, but you can hardly claim that the game in and of itself is somehow driving women away.

Look around. The proof is in the pudding. I don't know why it is the way it is.

This: http://venturebeat.com/2011/02/22/do-women-play-more-games-than-men/

[timmey]

In other words, when somebody has a legitimate complaint, such as mine about the porm ad in relation to increasing btc adoption among women, shouldn't my view be tolerated? Shouldn't others tolerate it when I'm saying something they don't want to hear?

Where has your opinion about porn ads in signatures not been tolerated? Some said they disagree with you but no one here insulted you or made fun of it.

First, I cannot believe that porn ALWAYS helps new technology. That is a very strong statement. I seriously doubt it influenced the light bulb or gasoline engine, just to name a couple things.

If you insist to weigh one's words than of course it hasn't helped every technology. How could it? I doubt that geek-trader meant that word-for-word. But the porn industry did help new video technologies a couple of times. Porn sites developed video on demand systems since the beginnings of broad-band internet technology, even before most TV stations put their content online. VHS was already mentioned.

Fun fact: the porn industry backed HD-DVD standard, and it lost.

Some studios like Wicked Pictures did choose HD-DVD but not the whole industry. Also, they switched to BluRay later.
The big porn studios and websites were one of the first adopters who shot "movies" in HD with newly developed professional equipment. Besides the format war, the industry knew that physical disc sales had gone down for years and that this wasn't gonna be the future of porn sales. That's why they focused on the internet. Producing HD discs wasn't profitable at that time, they just did it to show they can ;-) The early HD adoption also gave video streaming technology yet another huge push forward(in the technological part, specialized server design, protocol development.. etc). As before with SD streaming, HD porn streaming was way before HD TV series streaming for example. And before someone says "it wasn't porn alone", yes it wasn't porn alone but it had its part on pushing development forward. They experimented with the new technology and helped improving it where others just waited before they jumped on the HD train.

Just a note here, there are plenty respectable women out there that enjoy porn

#2

To attract average jane&joe to this forum, Bitcoin must become easier to use. The fact that there are so view woman on this board is (imho) just because Bitcoin is still too nerdy and it's not a secret that there are much more male nerds than female nerds on the internet. Removing my signature won't change this and won't bring more women on this board. I think the number of people who are afraid of getting scammed when doing a trade on this forum or the number of people who give up on bitcoin when they see what they have to do before they can even get/use a single coin securely, is much much higher than the number of people who are offended by my signature porn ad.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

In other words, when somebody has a legitimate complaint, such as mine about the porm ad in relation to increasing btc adoption among women, shouldn't my view be tolerated? Shouldn't others tolerate it when I'm saying something they don't want to hear?

Where has your opinion about porn ads in signatures not been tolerated? Some said they disagree with you but no one here insulted you or made fun of it.

First, I cannot believe that porn ALWAYS helps new technology. That is a very strong statement. I seriously doubt it influenced the light bulb or gasoline engine, just to name a couple things.

If you insist to weigh one's words than of course it hasn't helped every technology. How could it? I doubt that geek-trader meant that word-for-word. But the porn industry did help new video technologies a couple of times. Porn sites developed video on demand systems since the beginnings of broad-band internet technology, even before most TV stations put their content online. VHS was already mentioned.

Fun fact: the porn industry backed HD-DVD standard, and it lost.

Some studios like Wicked Pictures did choose HD-DVD but not the whole industry. Also, they switched to BluRay later.
The big porn studios and websites were one of the first adopters who shot "movies" in HD with newly developed professional equipment. Besides the format war, the industry knew that physical disc sales had gone down for years and that this wasn't gonna be the future of porn sales. That's why they focused on the internet. Producing HD discs wasn't profitable at that time, they just did it to show they can ;-) The early HD adoption also gave video streaming technology yet another huge push forward(in the technological part, specialized server design, protocol development.. etc). As before with SD streaming, HD porn streaming was way before HD TV series streaming for example. And before someone says "it wasn't porn alone", yes it wasn't porn alone but it had its part on pushing development forward. They experimented with the new technology and helped improving it where others just waited before they jumped on the HD train.

Just a note here, there are plenty respectable women out there that enjoy porn

#2

To attract average jane&joe to this forum, Bitcoin must become easier to use. The fact that there are so view woman on this board is (imho) just because Bitcoin is still too nerdy and it's not a secret that there are much more male nerds than female nerds on the internet. Removing my signature won't change this and won't bring more women on this board. I think the number of people who are afraid of getting scammed when doing a trade on this forum or the number of people who give up on bitcoin when they see what they have to do before they can even get/use a single coin securely, is much much higher than the number of people who are offended by my signature porn ad.

+1



Needs Repeating:

I think the number of people who are afraid of getting scammed when doing a trade on this forum or the number of people who give up on bitcoin when they see what they have to do before they can even get/use a single coin securely, is much much higher than the number of people who are offended by my signature porn ad.

[LH66]

Needs Repeating:

I think the number of people who are afraid of getting scammed when doing a trade on this forum or the number of people who give up on bitcoin when they see what they have to do before they can even get/use a single coin securely, is much much higher than the number of people who are offended by my signature porn ad.

I have said almost all I need to say in regards to getting women on board with btc, except just one more thing:

My comments regarding the pron ads are within the larger context of cleaning up the forums. I acknowledge that removing a single text ad won't change anything about women's participation here.

I do think people understand my views and are willing to acknowledge that they may have some validity. Thank you all for adding to the discussion.

[the founder]

Want to get more women here?   It's simple....  make bitcoins useful.    

There was a study a few years back that had admittedly a sexist twist.  It stated that "generally speaking"  men adopt technology because it's new and has potential to do something.  Women adopt technology if it makes their lives easier.

Applied to bitcoins it means men adopt it because it offers a potential to be disruptive in the marketplace,  women adopt it if they can buy things that they normally buy EASILY , safely and securely.

with Easily being the keyword....   it doesn't mean understanding "next block wait"  or "why do I have to use 2 companies such as dowalla to buy from mt.gox"  or "why can't I access by coins from my cell phone if they are sent to my home computer"  or "why do I have to send to huge addresses instead of just the company name"  

For us it's natural because we are watching this thing grow... for them (IE: people adopting them now)...  it's a 2000 step process to buy coins and sell them or worse spend them.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Every industry has sought ways to attract women, and will continue to so.





It can easily be stated that this is porn because of the ketchup bottle's position and shape.

[Karmicads]

How do we get on board the women you ask?

Good question. The porn vids always make their willing cooperation seem even more like a forgone conclusion, than circumcision at a bar mitzvah.  

OH! WAIT...  Sorry... My mistake. You said "...get the women on board", not "get on board the women".  

Well if we solve the one I was working on first, then we'd have five minutes of obligatory cuddling afterwards to slip the bitcoin sales pitch in. I can see it now... [he puffs on a smoke and brushes her fringe aside] "That was fantastic honey. Almost as breathtaking as the first block I solved with my first bitcoin rig. Soooo... Did the whole blockchain move for you too?" The analogy might seem contrived unless you are older and have lived through a few 'difficulty increases'. Noting also that in the early days you could get lots of it all by yourself, but after a while it became easier in groups, with others who all share what they get. Nobody minds if everybody gets a bit. So you might say to your cuddly prospect: "Oh! You never heard of bitcoin then? You should meet my buddies then we get together and do it in a pool. "

So. Have I got this right then? You want the women folk to collectively understand that this bitcoin thingie is something you can use just like money? Like... Hey look honey!! You can BUY lots of stuff with this, like new curtains and figurines, decorative soaps that nobody is allowed to use and... Hey WAIT!! Let me just go top up my holdings in Yale Locks. I can almost hear the stampede of attached (to a female partner) guys, rushing out to buy big locks for the doors to their mining rigs. OK! Of course I'm just kidding. Whatever helps bitcoin to become more popular and attractive is all good.

Somehow I suspect that the girls will all catch on soon enough. They generally do seem to love plastic cards, as convenient payment methods go hand in hand with that genders nearly universal hobby - shopping. I Hope that doesn't seem too sexist, but women are generally somewhat different creatures to us men folk. The things that make bitcoin so wonderful IMHO are the qualities that some have mentioned above re: the technical aspects and the libertarian values bitcoin entails. They may not be the most typical qualities that the feminine sector find appealing, but that's something we have to accept for now. Those who like bitcoin just for what it really is, are not required to have any particular kind of genital apparatus or gender identity, so bitcoin is already in principal gender agnostic.

Bitcoin (and probably for the better) isn't required to answer the demands of any arbitrary demographic segment. Say you do some research and find for instance, that gardeners are also a sector that are particularly poorly predisposed to perceiving value in and adopting bitcoin. If you try to please everybody, it probably wouldn't still be our beloved bitcoin. There may be ways to generate some psychological appeal to stimulate interest, but that would seem more likely to be all so much superficial window dressing. Smothering bitcoin in the trappings of superficial glam and glitz, to deploy a campaign of coercive appeal or spin-doctoring, seeped in obsequious self-conscious approval seeking, seems very prone to the proverbial 'making a rod for our own back'. If somebody needs an ulterior motive to appreciate the significance of what bitcoin is and why it matters, then they are surely encumbered with a far more significant type of inequity. They may be seen as, far more wanting for a little education, than anything bitcoin itself lacks as it stands.

The shortfall in understanding and awareness of bitcoins strengths, leads by some orders of magnitude in the importance stakes, especially as compared to any subjective appeal factor. It's also more pressing for all who are on board as we move closer to opposing political/commercial pressures, if they are to stand up and be counted for the right reasons. In a sense I don't really even see this as a gender specific issue. We might just as well be concerned if gardeners were being left behind. People who just happen to posses vagina's, are an arbitrary demographic subset and if they happen to feel disadvantaged by some unjust  barrier to adoption, they have every right to make a stand. But if they are granted the same opportunity to participate yet still decline for simple lack of interest, then it's not actually an issue at all. It's just horses for courses.

We shouldn't need to behave like insecure adolescents, trying to pluck up courage to ask girls if they will go with us to the prom.
We have to accept that the human race consists of two rather different creatures. (Actually it's three, if you count the largely androgynous pre-pubescent, larval stage they called babies.) Women typically have a far more instinctive urge, to nurture and care for those little bundles of indiscriminate poo delivering, rancorously squawking, dribbling, vomiting, sex life wrecking, sleep depriving, bundles of joy.
I truly doubt that women by comparison, would often (if ever) feel similarly compelled, when gathered for coffee and a chat, at any typical suburban mothers club, to plan and implement a way to make babies seem more appealing to us men folk. Imagine the earnest discourse: "Guys are just being left behind when it comes to clucking and swooning over strangers babies in shopping malls. How can we get them to carry 'brag books' and yearn to cuddle other parents babies?" Do you think they might be compelled by male appeal oriented modifications to babies, so they might be more appealing to guys? Are there any women out there perhaps, conspiring to develop bionic interfaces so babies can be implanted with a power down mode, or perhaps a programmable bowel evacuation EPROM. NO. I doubt it's even a blip on their radar. Needless to say, installing a stubby holder while the little squawker still has a soft spot, would be right out of the question.  

I do honestly and optimistically hope, that bitcoin does go mainstream, but before then I hope the average consumer learns more about the spiraling debt related debasement and unethical political liabilities of fiat currency. Understanding (even basically) WHY we need to adopt a better system, is something I consider to be a vital part of the transition, as there also needs to be much more consumer resistance and accountability brought to bare on the corporate sector. Bitcoin has the power to usurp the financial power bases and give bargaining power the citizenry. We need to take great care, in trying not to merely replicate the voracious unsustainable consumerism with our digital currency, while simply giving control of bitcoin back to the corporate tyrants. Perhaps the more prudent approach is to dig in for the long haul, by investing in and making sound commitments to education of the wider community. It may be too much to expect the typical female of our species to be quite as fascinated by geeky technical 'guy stuff' on average, but I really don't see the basic economic principals or libertarian values endemic to bitcoin, as particularly gender biased concepts. Women folk seem to me at least our equals and then some, when it comes to the social sciences and humanities. They also seem at least as enthusiastic and tenacious when they have actually embraced a social movement for the better. Let's have them on board for all the right reasons That's what I really hope for.

Another approach to gaining female bitcoiners, that seems promising, might be to find a good surgeon who will accept payment in bitcoin and instead of trying to turn women into geeks, sponsor a sex change program, to turn geeks into women. At least then the pale, underdeveloped, basement dwelling, male misfit, who may have all but resigned to a life of reluctant, involuntary celibacy, could look forward to possibly being a subject of genuine carnal desire. If the tide turns that way, our little bitcoin brandishing 'she geek', may even be quite brainy and sexy all at once. Even better yet, she will still be quite unable to encumber her partner, with the misfortune of some unwelcome, co-habitation imposition, with any of those larval proto-human progeny. Come to think of it, for a girl such as this, who might roll her own device drivers, compile a modified Linux kernel, laugh at my very un-PC dirty jokes, come back with her own, but yet still turn heads in a miniskirt... well... I might be tempted to donate enough for the silicon implants. SO! Who's first for the cut 'n' tuck?