Cryptocurrencies - neither money or assets but worthless alphanumeric characters

[fxsurfer]

Your logic is like saying that because Döttling Narcissus is the most expensive and the most secure safe in the world, a grain of sand that is put in it is worth $7,000. Why would you want to secure a grain of sand? It is worthless. Or, more importantly why would you want to pay $7,000 for it? Does a grain of sand have value because people desire access to Döttling Narcissus? Your rhetorical attempts give value to a worthless bunch of characters it is really fascinating.

You appear to be incapable of reading comprehension.

The grain of sand does not give one access to the safe.

Well, the fact is that characters in the form of bitcoin (1,25 BTC for e.g.), also does not give one access to the virtual wallet.  In both cases you need "secret numbers". So, I will ask again: does a grain of sand have value because people desire access to Döttling Narcissus?

[DannyHamilton]

Well, the fact is that characters in the form of bitcoin (1,25 BTC for e.g.), also does not give one access to the virtual wallet.  In both cases you need "secret numbers".

So, it is clear now that you neither have an understanding of how bitcoin actually works NOR are you capable of reading comprehension.

I suggest you go get educated, then come back when you actually have any idea what you are talking about.

[fxsurfer]

Well, the fact is that characters in the form of bitcoin (1,25 BTC for e.g.), also does not give one access to the virtual wallet.  In both cases you need "secret numbers".

So, it is clear now that you neither have an understanding of how bitcoin actually works NOR are you capable of reading comprehension.

I suggest you go get educated, then come back when you actually have any idea what you are talking about.

This is a typical response for someone who has no argument. There is nothing complicated about bitcoin, blockchain or bitcoin market. You have worthless digital bits stored on network of computers and people who throw away their valuable property or assets in exchange for these bits. And all that because people are uneducated about the fact that digital bits are just symbols used to represent and quantify actual property or assets, but are not property or assets themselves.

[Austin Alexis]

Money is nothing more than a transfer of wealth. With the advent of fiat this wealth was now held up on trust. Trust that a third party will pay the debt when requested. Bitcoin specifically is the first case of digital, unhackable scarcity so why is it so hard to believe it has a value if others are placing value on it>

[DooMAD]

Your logic is like saying that because Döttling Narcissus is the most expensive and the most secure safe in the world, a grain of sand that is put in it is worth $7,000. Why would you want to secure a grain of sand? It is worthless. Or, more importantly why would you want to pay $7,000 for it? Does a grain of sand have value because people desire access to Döttling Narcissus? Your rhetorical attempts give value to a worthless bunch of characters it is really fascinating.

You appear to be incapable of reading comprehension.

The grain of sand does not give one access to the safe.

Well, the fact is that characters in the form of bitcoin (1,25 BTC for e.g.), also does not give one access to the virtual wallet.  In both cases you need "secret numbers". So, I will ask again: does a grain of sand have value because people desire access to Döttling Narcissus?

You're completely missing the point.  Not only are we not merely talking about an ordinary safe, we're talking about safes that can teleport their contents to any other safe anywhere on the planet without anyone being able to stop it.  If the Döttling Narcissus could do that, you bet your ass people would pay good money for one.  

But the overall point is, it's not the contents contained in the safe that give the safe its value.

[cryptohunter]

Well, the fact is that characters in the form of bitcoin (1,25 BTC for e.g.), also does not give one access to the virtual wallet.  In both cases you need "secret numbers".

So, it is clear now that you neither have an understanding of how bitcoin actually works NOR are you capable of reading comprehension.

I suggest you go get educated, then come back when you actually have any idea what you are talking about.

This is a typical response for someone who has no argument. There is nothing complicated about bitcoin, blockchain or bitcoin market. You have worthless digital bits stored on network of computers and people who throw away their valuable property or assets in exchange for these bits. And all that because people are uneducated about the fact that digital bits are just symbols used to represent and quantify actual property or assets, but are not property or assets themselves.

Stop replying to this fxsurfer troll fool

he started this thread about the same shit and got owned because his argument is bogus

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3166072.0



He does not have the mind to comprehend that value is not obtained in 1 jump instantly from something else. It is a lot more complex than that.

He seems to think anything that is not tangible can not store value.

Of course that is foolish.

[DannyHamilton]

You have worthless digital bits stored on network of computers and people who throw away their valuable property or assets in exchange for these bits. And all that because people are uneducated about the fact that digital bits are just symbols used to represent and quantify actual property or assets, but are not property or assets themselves.

I give up.  If you can't read, then you can't be helped by anything typed on this forum.

There are two possibilities here...

1. You are lacking basic reading comprehension skills, and are incapable of logical thought.

2.  You are simply a troll that will refuse to take notice of any information that contradicts the narrative you are trying to create.

In either case, the best response is to stop replying to your posts with anything other than:

Please Don't Feed The Trolls.

[fxsurfer]

You have worthless digital bits stored on network of computers and people who throw away their valuable property or assets in exchange for these bits. And all that because people are uneducated about the fact that digital bits are just symbols used to represent and quantify actual property or assets, but are not property or assets themselves.

I give up.  If you can't read, then you can't be helped by anything typed on this forum.

There are two possibilities here...

1. You are lacking basic reading comprehension skills, and are incapable of logical thought.

2.  You are simply a troll that will refuse to take notice of any information that contradicts the narrative you are trying to create.

In either case, the best response is to stop replying to your posts with anything other than:

Please Don't Feed The Trolls.

The only troll here is you with your religious language. First you define blockchain as a highly secure, global, permissionless, immutable, redundant data storage. So, you have a bunch of anonymous computers that store numbers(bitcoins) and addresses. Than you conclude that this is an intrinsically valuable thing. Ok, computers are intrinsically valuable. But then your religious language kicks in: "Bitcoins are a measurement of one's ability to access that storage system." So, numbers stored by computers measure the ability to access computers." This is like saying: "things stored in the safe measure the ability to access the safe". IOWs, things inside the safe are valuable because we can access the safe. So the logic of your post boils down to this: if dirt is put into the safe, dirt becomes valuable because we can access the safe. If this is not trolling, then what is trolling?

[Dapper]

Are they still worthless when you exchange them into fiat, plane tickets, or ski passes?    I think not.   Fine powder today in St. Moritz.

[kraterion]

It is a nice and practical article. But before discovering anything, it is important to have faith on it. Though cryptos are fully virtual and intangible, it might take time to be trusted. But I hope one day it will be accepted by mass people.

Why would people trust in alphanumeric characters? We trust people, not things. Things are valuated, not trusted. They are valued by their ability to provide benefit for the owner. How can you benefit from the alphanumeric characters like 0.0001 BTC or 1.5 LTC? They are neither passwords nor some secret code or text. They are not representative of legal claims like fiat currencies. They are not tangible. So how can you benefit from such items?

Fiat currencies are just numbers too, they have value because we give value to them, that's it. If tomorrow La Garde wake up and say "Ok people from now we buy/sell services/things with bananas", you will see that fiat currencies will become just worthless numbers and bananas will have value. It's just a stupid example to say, our crypto have value because there are people out there accepting them as a payment method.
I find crypto way more valuable then fiat because, 1)we own them (we have to trust banks with fiat, we don't really own that) 2)we know every supplies, every transactions (good luck with that with fiat).
It's just the next big leap for humanity but unfortunally most people just see the speculative aspect of it.

[warrior333]

Numbers are also a coordinate system. Why cryptocurrencies can't be part of a coordinate system. We make up the rules ourselves and then follow them. Do you really think dollars are worth more than the paper they're printed on? I am sure that bitcoin has more prospects than the dollar.

[Umkar]

I think that you are wrong. We first buy some of these, as you put it, alphanumeric characters and with their help we can translate our invested money into these alphanumeric characters, anywhere in the world without intermediaries, at any time of the day, in any place convenient for us and very quickly. Also, we can pay for any goods or services for the amount invested by us, while bearing the cost of implementing such transactions in the amount of commission expenses. That is, the crypto currency, that is, a set of alphanumeric characters only serves as a specific shell for performing various financial transactions in the amount invested in this shell of our real money. However, the size of our invested funds, as long as we have not spent them, can increase or decrease depending on the ratio of demand and the price of this alphanumeric shell and this is already an unshakable law of the market.
The same is given to us and banknotes, but they provide us with much less comfort and convenience. Banknotes, that is colorfully painted from fakes paper shell, we need to be attributed to someone to exchange it for some kind of goods or services. Non-cash money is closer to the level of convenience to the crypto currency, but it can not be compared with the crypto currency.

[FrueGreads]

Did you read the article?

Yes I've read it, and I already know that argument but I still don't believe in it. Also, don't forget that money is an abstraction as well, and now it's not backed up by anything, except by banks and governments word. At least bitcoin is backed by math, and that's the reason why I think it has more value than fiat. Also, I say it one more time, people decide what has value and what it does not.

Even gold, that you can say it has value because it's used for many things. But if you think about it, only a very small % of gold is actually used in industry, so gold is not valuable for it's applications. It's because people give it value based on their perception. I know bitcoin is knew, and maybe that's why people get a hard time understand why it's becoming so valuable, but once people understand that it's applications, there will no doubts on how valuable bitcoin is.

Finally, what you are saying has no sense if you think about software. Once it's compiled it's nothing more than "language understood by machines". They have value because of the utility they provide. That will be the same with bitcoin...

[fxsurfer]

Did you read the article?

Yes I've read it, and I already know that argument but I still don't believe in it. Also, don't forget that money is an abstraction as well, and now it's not backed up by anything, except by banks and governments word. At least bitcoin is backed by math, and that's the reason why I think it has more value than fiat. Also, I say it one more time, people decide what has value and what it does not.

Even gold, that you can say it has value because it's used for many things. But if you think about it, only a very small % of gold is actually used in industry, so gold is not valuable for it's applications. It's because people give it value based on their perception. I know bitcoin is knew, and maybe that's why people get a hard time understand why it's becoming so valuable, but once people understand that it's applications, there will no doubts on how valuable bitcoin is.

Finally, what you are saying has no sense if you think about software. Once it's compiled it's nothing more than "language understood by machines". They have value because of the utility they provide. That will be the same with bitcoin...

The whole article talks about the distinction between "alphanumerical characters" (abstractions) and things(stock, bonds, gold certificates, fiat money, patents) that are represented and quantified with this abstractions. The article also explains how fiat money is backed by banks’ assets and by land, cars, homes and other property of borrowers. All you did in your post was show a complete ignorance of the arguments the article is making and just repeated flawed phrases "fiat money is an abstraction" and "it's not backed up by anything", which are phrases repeated like a mantra in crypto community. So, in your post there is nothing of substance worth rebutting.

[FrueGreads]

The whole article talks about the distinction between "alphanumerical characters" (abstractions) and things(stock, bonds, gold certificates, fiat money, patents) that are represented and quantified with this abstractions. The article also explains how fiat money is backed by banks’ assets and by land, cars, homes and other property of borrowers. All you did in your post was show a complete ignorance of the arguments the article is making and just repeated flawed phrases "fiat money is an abstraction" and "it's not backed up by anything", which are phrases repeated like a mantra in crypto community. So, in your post there is nothing of substance worth rebutting.

Look you seem to just blindly accept what is written on that article, but I will try again.

As we can see, when dollars for e.g., are put into circulation, those that didn’t own tangible and intangible things (borrowers) became their owners, while those who did own them abandoned their ownership rights of these things and became the owners of alphanumeric characters that are written on a piece of paper or memory in a bank’s computer, or in short – they became the owners of dollars

borrowers have two options: either they will sell their valuable things to dollars owners directly on the marketplace to get dollars for their loan payments, or the banks will take possession of their land, cars, homes and will sell borrower’s valuable things to dollar owners indirectly.

So, contrary to what many people believe, fiat money is not just a piece of paper or memory in a bank’s computer with some alphanumeric characters. Instead, it is an actual legal claim, backed by bank’s assets and borrower’s property.

First, debt doesn't always work that well, and that's why we keep having market crashes, like the one we had in 2008. Banks sell debt, people end up not being able to pay their debt, banks get their houses, but then the house is not worth that much apparently, and suddenly the "perfect scheme" illustrated in that article doesn't work anymore. Banks have houses that are worthless, we end up having a lot of dollars in circulation, inflation kicks in, and now everyone is poor because their precious dollars aren't worth that much anymore.

Developed countries end up recovering from those mistakes that lead to crashes, but look at Zimbabwe, where their currency was so wrongly printed that their entire fiat system crashed beyond recovery. If things were so perfectly balanced, and fiat was backing land and properties, etc, please do explain what happened there...

Things are not always perfect and there is room for the hole system to crash, as history has proven us many times, and it will continue doing so. This happens because the system doesn't follow simple math rules. If it doesn't follow simple math rules, and it can fail, then it's based on faith.

If I buy a rare baseball card, or any collectible item, what am I buying? It's not the card itself, it's just a piece of plastic that is not made by very special materials. It has symbolic value for fans, etc. That's what I'm buying when I pay for a collectible item. This has nothing to do with bitcoin, what I'm trying to describe here, is that we are the ones to perceive and give value to things. That can happen to anything, including cryptocurrencies.

When people buy bitcoin, they are buying the security and convenience that it's network provides to carry out transactions in a decentralized way. People see value in gold because it is scarce. It's not because of it's industry utility. Just a very small portion of gold is used in industry, because there are simply better and cheaper materials available out there. So again, gold has the value because we agree it has value.

We usually value scarcity, we value security, we value convenience, and Bitcoin has all those things.

If I gave you 1 BTC, you could:
- give it away to someone else;
- simply forget about it because you don't believe in it, and it would be same as stepping on a rock, so you would simply leave it behind;
- sell it to someone else at the current price;

In all those scenarios you would probably be losing, simply because you don't understand the value of a Bitcoin.

[semobo]

Whatever it maybe but it has a value right,once you will understand the technology behind the cryotocurrency then you may know why it got popular,it is almost safe form of currency in the transaction.And then do you think why money has a value it was just a piece of paper with some colours poured on it,think about it.

[Warren Buffert]

It is a nice and practical article. But before discovering anything, it is important to have faith on it. Though cryptos are fully virtual and intangible, it might take time to be trusted. But I hope one day it will be accepted by mass people.

Why would people trust in alphanumeric characters? We trust people, not things. Things are valuated, not trusted. They are valued by their ability to provide benefit for the owner. How can you benefit from the alphanumeric characters like 0.0001 BTC or 1.5 LTC? They are neither passwords nor some secret code or text. They are not representative of legal claims like fiat currencies. They are not tangible. So how can you benefit from such items?

You can't grasp how to benefit from digital numbers, but you can cope with benefitting from a piece of paper with numbers and a logo of a dead guy printed on?

[Kprawn]

An intangible asset is an asset that is not physical in nature. Corporate intellectual property, including items such as

patents, trademarks, copyrights and business methodologies, are intangible assets, as are goodwill and brand recognition.

Looking at the above definition it would be clear to everyone that a asset do not have to be physical and numerical value

can by definition be valuable. The problem is, some users with a agenda, will refuse to see that and no amount of debate will

change that. They are here for one reason and that is to destroy Bitcoin... no debate will change the agenda. 

[franky1]

]This is a typical response for someone who has no argument. There is nothing complicated about bitcoin, blockchain or bitcoin market. You have worthless digital bits stored on network of computers and people who throw away their valuable property or assets in exchange for these bits. And all that because people are uneducated about the fact that digital bits are just symbols used to represent and quantify actual property or assets, but are not property or assets themselves.

what i think your trying to say is that a property deed is just words on paper. and that you will never own your house because one day i can enter your house and it automatically makes it mine just by standing inside it/with it. because paper is just symbols

or will you rebutt by saying that no one can take ownership of your property that easily, because i do not have access to your house keys and you do have proof of ownership that only you can claim because the proof is registered and notorised which can only change ownership with your authorisation

[Vatimins]

Galileo Galilei once said, “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.” Discovering truth about cryptocurrencies (let’s just call them cryptos) and showing that they are neither money nor assets, is the goal of this article. The first step toward achieving this goal is to explain how tangible or intangible things are represented and quantified with a combination of alphanumeric characters on a paper or digital medium. After that, we will know that money or assets are entities separated from characters that represent and quantify them. Given this knowledge it will become clear why cryptos never were, nor ever will be money or assets, but worthless alphanumeric characters whose digital manifestation serves only to trick the public into the illusion that they represent and quantify some actual things. ....The rest you can read here:  https://cryptofraud.wordpress.com/

     Pretty interesting thought you have on that article there pal, and does makes sense. But the thing is, crypto currencies as what they are "a combination of alphanumeric numbers" is the best thing about them. I mean, if you think about it, the crypto currencies you see are basically nothing right? Now, cryptos having nothing that is on that nothing is empty and without a purpose. Which makes it a good thing to turn into something that we want. That is what makes it beautiful. These alphanumeric characters can become both assets and and money altogether making our lives easier when the issues get fixed(which is bound to happen in the future) and used right. It may have a lot of cons but it also has pros like any other assets out there or fiat. You are seeing this quality of cryptos on the wrong side my friend try to look far beyond what you see so you can understand the beauty of this innovation. Good day pal.