[LEAKED] Private Bitcoin Foundation Discussions On Blacklisting, more (ZIP dump)

[DPoS]

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his Bitcoin address. It contains 10,000 Bitcoins and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

Keep your fairytails to yourself... the CIA works with the Saudis to run all those merc groups in the middle east.  Wake up.  Not to mention Mossad

[bluemeanie1]

There is alternatives.

http://www.assets-otc.com/gocoin/

He's code looks sane, as go code usually does.

have you actually tried this?

apparently a web link is some sort of new form of argument proof in our modern times.

argumentum ad hrefium?

[ffssixtynine]

@ffssixtynine

I see you like government involvement, or at the very least - you think that there's no use in resisting it. With your little crafted example of Bin retard, for instance. Fear as a tactic? Its working for the DHS rather well, isn't it? So naturally you adopt this stance and say "Well, look - we can catch bad people if we do X, Y and Z" without stopping for one second and looking at the principles being violated.

Personal freedom and financial freedom are worthwhile, no matter how many horrible counter-examples you can give. For every system there are positives and negatives, and I'm not going to give up this fight just because someone is scared the "bad guys" will abuse it.

As for the "Bitcoin Foundation", all they've done is raise Bitcoin's visibility towards the very forces that can cause us harm (Depending on where you live, I guess.). Thanks a load, guys, you're really pals. Entertaining or "just discussing" these issues with government aren't helping anyone, at all.

All they'll end up achieving is crippling U.S. involvement with Bitcoin, and then other countries will take the torch and leave them in the dust.

This is simply idiocy.

Can I just clarify that no no no I'm not in favour of any of it. I have said that several times

However, some form of regulation is going to happen. It doesn't matter what you say, what I say, what the foundation say, it is going to happen. Just like with KYC with exchanges. Refusing to discuss it internally, let alone externally, is folly in the extreme. You'll then have people like yifu having the regulator's ear instead. That would be an utter nightmare - there would be no balance.

They haven't raised Bitcoin's visibility in this respect - this is being discussing heavily at regulators world wide and multiple companies are working on how they can make money by getting in bed with the gov at our expense (some may even believe it's the right thing to do). I've known this was under discussion in the UK and US since July. It only takes a few contacts to know what's going on, plus enough has been said in public, and many other people here know this too. The only people with their knickers in a twist over a simple discussion are people here.

Let me make clear the difference between something being discussed to as to know how to deal with questioning, which is absolutely essential, and coming out and saying at we should do x.  It's important to recognise the difference. In order to counter arguments for black green grey etc listing, you need to have discussed it, including technical approaches. Not doing so means being caught with your pants down.

Regulators are not necessarily your enemy, but governments and law enforcement certainly can be. Regulators are the guys in the middle. It's all rather more complex than you seem to realise.

Btw This issue goes way beyond the US.

[bluemeanie1]

The only people with their knickers in a twist over a simple discussion are people here.

Why does it seem we have so many British on this side of the discussion lately?  Also the IBM rep who was poking around was also London based.

I think maybe theyre concerned this might happen again:  http://www.no-debts.com/anti-federalist/files/ownmoney.txt

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

watching

does anyone think it's a coincidence that we have a huge run up in BTC price EXACTLY at the time this stuff is going on behind closed doors?

certainly suggests and implicates various parties in some dastardly doings.

Obviously.

Some "groups" have concluded that Bitcoin will go mainstream and it has to be controlled before it can harm their business and powers.

[ffssixtynine]

None of what you said has anything to do with what I said. Talk about someone not reading...

I'm just saying I came here looking for a solution for this CoinValidation business. I got none. And not only that, but the foundation is actually talking about its merits.

Regulators, debates, meeting the government... cool story bro. But it's off topic. I'm just talking about how I'm not seeing any solutions to the CoinValidation issue coming from the Foundation.

CoinValidation was literally only just announced and is not even what's under discussion! You're conflating issues.

The foundation themselves are nothing to do with it. I hope I'm not being out of turn but I contacted Mike Hearn and he said he doesn't know about their plans. They need to be looked at and an approach formulated because you can bet govs will love CoinValidation - it could give them more than they ever dreamed. Imagine the US or your knowing every single thing you spend, when, maybe even where. It turns bitcoin into our worst nightmare.

However, if the bitcoin crowd refuse to budge, we'll see a gov supported crypto or a layer on top of bitcoin and it'll all get unnecessarily messy and no one will win. Man in the street doesn't know or care about is, and they don't trust bitcoin anyway. Don't trust govs or banks much either but money wise I guarantee they will trust the dollar or a Visa card many times more than this currency that looks like a ponzi to them and is used by criminals apparently (just putting across a common pov).

So you may not want anyone speaking to regulators or the gov, but you're not thinking it through and whether you agree or not, it isn't on to start making personal attacks and throwing around inaccurate information as we've seen (I'm not saying you are yourself!).

[bluemeanie1]

watching

does anyone think it's a coincidence that we have a huge run up in BTC price EXACTLY at the time this stuff is going on behind closed doors?

certainly suggests and implicates various parties in some dastardly doings.

Obviously.

Some "groups" have concluded that Bitcoin will go mainstream and it has to be controlled before it can harm their business and powers.

well if the insiders(who are supposed to be representing the community) covertly agree to work in controls that are beneficial for capital interests, then they know its safe to start buying BTC, and they know this before the general public does and can profit from it.

[ffssixtynine]

It looks like the foundation is attracting a lot of wanna-be central bankers

How many times - read read read. Stop just reading a headline and throwing out a random statement based on fiction. No wonder Fox News has such a huge effect - people don't want to think for themselves, they just want to be outraged.

Virtually no one wants tainting. Based on the forum posts the op put up, the foundation members don't either.

[bluemeanie1]

It looks like the foundation is attracting a lot of wanna-be central bankers

How many times - read read read. Stop just reading a headline and throwing out a random statement based on fiction. No wonder Fox News has such a huge effect - people don't want to think for themselves, they just want to be outraged.

Virtually no one wants tainting. Based on the forum posts the op put up, the foundation members don't either.

did you read this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/libor-scandal/10394831/City-workers-face-investigation-over-Libor-fixing.html

who do you think is culpable?

[ffssixtynine]

Stuff about the us gov actions...

You've misunderstood my point. I was showing how the media and the gov and the public will react.

How the gov actually behave themselves has nothing to do with it. All the media, but perhaps the US particular, have to take a lot of the blame for not raising merry hell about what's gone on. However, it's nothing to do with my point and I don't trust any gov to anything related to blacklisting. It'd be a disaster of epic proportions and cannot be allowed.

However... That does not mean something can be done to prevent the gov doing a major hatchet job such as a third party verification service mandated for all crypto currencies. I don't want anything done but that's wishful thinking. Too much is at stake.

[ffssixtynine]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/libor-scandal/10394831/City-workers-face-investigation-over-Libor-fixing.html

who do you think is culpable?

I don't understand that this has to do with anything?

[tinus42]

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Or an alternative, true, foundation?

No, no centralization please. Existing members of the BF should consider withdrawing their membership.

[Boussac]

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his Bitcoin address. It contains 10,000 Bitcoins and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

What do you think is going to happen? Media outrage and congressional outrage. "We must ban this worldwide!". It's exactly what will happen. Bitcoin being so public is a double-edged sword.

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his bank account. It contains 5 MUSD and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

What do you think is going to happen? Media outrage and congressional outrage. "We must ban this worldwide!". It's exactly what will happen. The US Dollar being so public is a double-edged sword.

[bluemeanie1]

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Or an alternative, true, foundation?

No, no centralization please. Existing members of the BF should consider withdrawing their membership.

BF + ECB/FR = BFF

[bluemeanie1]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/libor-scandal/10394831/City-workers-face-investigation-over-Libor-fixing.html

who do you think is culpable?

I don't understand that this has to do with anything?

don't want to answer my question huh?

[ffssixtynine]

Bitcoin is not supposed to be a tool that replaces the incompetence of law enforcement.

We need an altcoin that improves the weaknesses bitcoin has, hence allows people to be free once again, and not treated as potential Bin Ladens.

You know this

Yes, where have I said any different? My point wasn't that it's wrong about bin laden's account in my example, my point was about how it would play out. I thought that was obvious but sorry if it wasn't.

If you read the foundation threads, someone made exactly the same point as your first line. Banks have had all this too - they don't want all this KYC but they were forced to give in. Hopefully bitcoin won't.

[ffssixtynine]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/libor-scandal/10394831/City-workers-face-investigation-over-Libor-fixing.html

who do you think is culpable?

I don't understand that this has to do with anything?

don't want to answer my question huh?

I just don't understand what on earth it has to do with anything? Corrupt bankers? Inept regulators? Gov letting this go on under their noses?

What does that have to do with anything we're talking about? Seriously, I don't understand your point.

[leopard2]

Bitcoin is like cash, and who would use a dollar bill that could be remotely seized or invalidated by someone? just because bin laden is using dollar bills?

In contrast to paper bills, btc can be converted to any altcoin at exchanges anywhere on the planet, so how could a tainted version of btc survive? Fiat exchange can be regulated because there are bank accounts involved but btc-altcoin conversion are nearly impossible to regulate.

Each of the various altcoins could replace btc instantly, only problem being that many BTC owners would lose money. Maybe it is time to get a bunch of the most common altcoins just in case?  

[corebob]

Bitcoin is not supposed to be a tool that replaces the incompetence of law enforcement.

We need an altcoin that improves the weaknesses bitcoin has, hence allows people to be free once again, and not treated as potential Bin Ladens.

You know this

Yes, where have I said any different? My point wasn't that it's wrong about bin laden's account in my example, my point was about how it would play out. I thought that was obvious but sorry if it wasn't.

If you read the foundation threads, someone made exactly the same point as your first line. Banks have had all this too - they don't want all this KYC but they were forced to give in. Hopefully bitcoin won't.

I guess you didn't, I just needed an entry point 

[btcdrak]

In my head, I picture people sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALAL DON'T TALK ABOUT COINTAINT LALALALAL"

Or maybe somebody in a funny hat pointing their finger at Mike and shouting "BLASPHEMY!"

It is fine if y'all want to pretend that coin-tracking won't happen if the Foundation ignores it, and maybe it is such a hot-button issue that the Foundation should ignore it right now.

But it will happen anyway, because the technology to make it happen is pretty straightforward, and any victim of CryptoLocker will be VERY sympathetic to law enforcement tracking "dirty" coins. More than sympathetic, I think we should expect a lot of pressure on law enforcement to DO SOMETHING.

The above was posted by Gavin.

I have emphasised the point I was also making. This doesn't mean do something, it means absolute and complete preparation for how to deal with it. In order to do that, you have to be able to discuss it without being burned at the stake. That's just to shoot oneself in the head.

Isn't the obvious response to the bolded portion, especially from the foundation and core devs, to implement technical solutions that make harder/impossible to redlist/blacklist/whitelist?

That is exactly what the core devs are looking at already. CoinJoin, BIP32 and Luke-Jr's test to incentivize unique address use (which comes for free with BIP32 - just need to get more wallets to implement it!!).