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Author Topic: ATTN: MtGox  (Read 5357 times)
GeniuSxBoY
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August 01, 2011, 05:47:18 PM
 #1

Can you please put a 100/day (or reasonable) trade limit on accounts to stop bots from doing this:

Quote
3:39:34 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:34 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:33 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:33 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:32 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:32 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:32 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:31 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:31 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:31 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:30 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:30 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:30 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:29 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:29 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:29 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:28 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:28 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:28 > Rem Bid 150 @ 13.1001
13:39:28 > Add Bid 150 @ 13.1001
13:39:27 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:27 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:27 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:27 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:26 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:26 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:25 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:25 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:25 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:24 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:24 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:24 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:23 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:23 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:23 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:22 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:22 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:21 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:21 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:21 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:20 > Add Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:20 > Rem Ask 24.3 @ 13.44911
13:39:20 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:19 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:19 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:18 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:18 > Add Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:18 > Rem Bid 1.83 @ 13.41012
13:39:17
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..

.


This has been going on for quite some time.
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August 01, 2011, 05:54:00 PM
 #2

Can you please put a 100/day (or reasonable) trade limit on accounts to stop bots from doing this:
This has been going on for quite some time.

Better yet, he should just impose a cancelation fee for any order that's been on the market for less than 10 minutes. Then the bots can go broke.

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I never hashed for this...


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August 01, 2011, 05:54:44 PM
 #3

Why not just make your own bot to enter the ring? Adding more restrictions is just another violation of the free market.
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August 01, 2011, 06:00:02 PM
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I understand your concern with a free market. The market is still free for human capabilities. Noone (except some insanely bored teenagers) is going to waste their time adding and removing orders by hand 100 times.
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August 01, 2011, 06:09:05 PM
 #5

Why not just make your own bot to enter the ring? Adding more restrictions is just another violation of the free market.

Those bots are using a service (called the API). In a free market, it is absolutely reasonable and common to charge for using services.

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GeniuSxBoY
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August 01, 2011, 06:12:44 PM
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I think the service should be kept free, because even if they paid for the service, it would not solve the problem posted in the OP
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August 01, 2011, 06:16:49 PM
 #7

Agreed with OP

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August 01, 2011, 06:19:09 PM
 #8

I think the service should be kept free, because even if they paid for the service, it would not solve the problem posted in the OP

It would, if you had to pay for API calls. Give people an API key, let them do 100 calls per day for free, additional calls prepaid at 0.1 btc / 100 calls.
It wouldn't hurt any real traders with their tools, not even "sensible" bots, but it would most likely stop script-kiddy-gone-wild-bots that usually don't trade larger volumes anyway.

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August 01, 2011, 06:26:32 PM
 #9

I think the service should be kept free, because even if they paid for the service, it would not solve the problem posted in the OP

It would, if you had to pay for API calls. Give people an API key, let them do 100 calls per day for free, additional calls prepaid at 0.1 btc / 100 calls.
It wouldn't hurt any real traders with their tools, not even "sensible" bots, but it would most likely stop script-kiddy-gone-wild-bots that usually don't trade larger volumes anyway.

These robots are probably slowing the system down a bit too.  Charging just .001 BTC per trading call would fix the problem as well and be simple.


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August 01, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
 #10

I think the service should be kept free, because even if they paid for the service, it would not solve the problem posted in the OP

It would, if you had to pay for API calls. Give people an API key, let them do 100 calls per day for free, additional calls prepaid at 0.1 btc / 100 calls.
It wouldn't hurt any real traders with their tools, not even "sensible" bots, but it would most likely stop script-kiddy-gone-wild-bots that usually don't trade larger volumes anyway.

Oh. You didn't say it would be free for the first 100 calls per day  Wink It makes a difference.


Your new way lets people keep trading in case there's an emergency. My solution doesn't.


I think I will agree that is a better solution than to jail people within 100 trades.
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August 01, 2011, 06:47:43 PM
 #11

BUMP!! KILL THE BOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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August 01, 2011, 07:03:11 PM
 #12

Since his bot places small bid above the highest bid and small ask below the smallest ask, you can break his bot by placing a mirco-order at .00001 below his ask price.




edit: he fixed to match the highest bid now Sad
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August 01, 2011, 07:09:02 PM
 #13

BUMP!! KILL THE BOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Leave Bender alone!

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August 01, 2011, 07:18:53 PM
 #14

If a cancellation fee isn't appropriate,  I would put a throttle in place.  Maybe api calls are restricted to once per 5 seconds per api key.

On my system, the fee to place orders is not refunded when you cancel the order.  It sounds like a bit of a money grab, but it will ensure that people trade sensibly and place serious orders that they actually expect to get executed.

It's been a while since I've traded on Forex markets, but as I recall, there was always some fee, spread or commission that would get you if you immediately opened then closed an order on any of the exchanges.

Because of this, scalping using bots on Forex is actually rather difficult and most algorithms fail to produce profits.  On the other hand, long term traders are also screwed because Forex also closes on the weekends and charges a fee to keep your open orders over the weekend as well.
  

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August 01, 2011, 07:20:25 PM
 #15

I am not a trading expert so could someone please outline the negative effects OP's concerns have on users of this market?

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August 01, 2011, 07:38:45 PM
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can allow for price manipulation.

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August 01, 2011, 07:55:36 PM
 #17

I am not a trading expert so could someone please outline the negative effects OP's concerns have on users of this market?

Those tiny amounts traded by named bots take up a lot of "screen real estate", so, quite frankly, they are just a pain in the watchacallit.

Also, even after major movements on the market, the bots tend to return the "commonly visible exchange rate" to an unrealistic value. For example, after a larger trade, the bids and asks between 13.3 and 13.7 may be completely wiped out. Actually, no real exchange rate anywhere between those two values is realistic (if at all, it would be on the buy side, so 13.3). The bots may revert to 13.7 easily, leading to the false impression of a higher exchange rate. That would not be an issue for the common trader, but it almost certainly is for the market in general. Volumes on the exchanges are incredibly low and that makes those bots dangerous.

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August 01, 2011, 08:03:20 PM
 #18

Well, IMO, from an enduser's point of view, bots are a good thing in many cases.  They provide stability to the market.  They keep the buy and sell order prices as close as possible by keeping only the fee value + tiny profit as the spread.  However, they eliminate those profit opportunities for others.

From an exchange's point of view, it could be a nightmare waiting to happen.   All those writes to the database must be costly and probably affect performance somewhat.  If something ever goes wrong, you now have to examine and wade through many thousands of transactions.  But at least it's a good load test on the system Smiley)  

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August 01, 2011, 08:24:06 PM
 #19

Well, IMO, from an enduser's point of view, bots are a good thing in many cases.  They provide stability to the market.  They keep the buy and sell order prices as close as possible by keeping only the fee value + tiny profit as the spread.  However, they eliminate those profit opportunities for others.

As long as those bots are not actually funded with anything but petty cash, they don't provide stability, they only give the false impression of stability. And that is worse than no stability at all.

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August 01, 2011, 11:14:08 PM
 #20

Can you please put a 100/day (or reasonable) trade limit on accounts to stop bots from doing this:
This has been going on for quite some time.

Better yet, he should just impose a cancelation fee for any order that's been on the market for less than 10 minutes. Then the bots can go broke.
How about imposing a fee for too many cancellations per day based on the ratio of filled orders / canceled orders for the account?

For example, an account is allowed 5 free cancelations per day for each filled order. Anything above that will be charged.
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