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Question: Should BitBet refund snackman's 10 BTC? (and all other victims' losses)
Yes - 211 (75.1%)
No - 70 (24.9%)
Total Voters: 281

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Author Topic: BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC)  (Read 57622 times)
snackman
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November 19, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
 #1

I recently lost 10 bitcoin to a clusterfuck of poor service on the parts of Bets of Bitcoin and Bitbet.

I bet 10 bitcoin on this bet: http://bitbet.us/bet/591/bitcoin-price-to-rise-above-750-usd/

However, I transferred the 10 bitcoin from Bets of Bitcoin, which neglected to include a transaction fee (and gave me no option to do so), resulting in my transaction being delayed for ~24 hours: https://blockchain.info/tx/2af75fb4e50a14bf247575bf426615d01f9d6db4d88dc0668d27c88259f68691

As a result, due to this unfair technicality in Bitbet's rules: http://bitbet.us/faq/#151, I am now out 10 bitcoin. Adding insult to injury, the mod graced me with this snarky retort: "Unconfirmed bets are not refunded. Kindly see FAQ, and include tx fees next time. Think of the miners!"... More like "think of our pockets which our now 10 ill-begotten bitcoin richer."

If we are going to build an ecosystem that can support and serve the mainstream whose attention bitcoin has recently achieved, poor user experiences like this should not (and need not) happen.

I'd appreciate any advice on how to solicit/enact the refund of my stolen (I do think this is the appropriate term) coins.

If you feel so inclined, tweet to Bitbet that they should refund my coins: https://twitter.com/BitBets "@Bitbets It's unfair to keep @Snack_Man's 10 BTC that was sent to 13EW8oUL5mzLiBbYpZouNqjNsFhabiSoeX. Refund them!"

TL;DR: I lost a substantial amount of money to Bets of Bitcoin / Bitbet for no good reason. Beware of Bets of Bitcoin's lack of transaction fee on withdrawals and Bitbet's draconian, scammy rules.

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MPOE-PR
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November 19, 2013, 08:30:11 PM
 #2

I recently lost 10 bitcoin to a clusterfuck of poor service on the parts of Bets of Bitcoin and Bitbet.

I bet 10 bitcoin on this bet: http://bitbet.us/bet/591/bitcoin-price-to-rise-above-750-usd/

However, I transferred the 10 bitcoin from Bets of Bitcoin, which neglected to include a transaction fee (and gave me no option to do so), resulting in my transaction being delayed for ~24 hours: https://blockchain.info/tx/2af75fb4e50a14bf247575bf426615d01f9d6db4d88dc0668d27c88259f68691

As a result, due to this unfair technicality in Bitbet's rules: http://bitbet.us/faq/#151, I am now out 10 bitcoin. Adding insult to injury, the mod graced me with this snarky retort: "Unconfirmed bets are not refunded. Kindly see FAQ, and include tx fees next time. Think of the miners!"... More like "think of our pockets which our now 10 ill-begotten bitcoin richer."

If we are going to build an ecosystem that can support and serve the mainstream whose attention bitcoin has recently achieved, poor user experiences like this should not (and need not) happen.

I'd appreciate any advice on how to solicit/enact the refund of my stolen (I do think this is the appropriate term) coins.

If you feel so inclined, tweet to Bitbet that they should refund my coins: https://twitter.com/BitBets "@Bitbets It's unfair to keep @Snack_Man's 10 BTC that was sent to 13EW8oUL5mzLiBbYpZouNqjNsFhabiSoeX. Refund them!"

TL;DR: I lost a substantial amount of money to Bets of Bitcoin / Bitbet for no good reason. Beware of Bets of Bitcoin's lack of transaction fee on withdrawals and Bitbet's draconian (read: dumb) rules.

Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching. Placing a bet when the resolution is imminent is dangerous. Doing so without a tx fee is suicidal. The rules governing this possibility are in BitBet's FAQ.

It is unfortunate that you deemed it alright to wager your BTC with a service whose guidelines you had not read, and before you had grasped the concepts of transactions and confirmations in the first place. That you made these choices, however, is not anybody else's concern.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
snackman
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November 19, 2013, 08:48:46 PM
 #3

Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching. Placing a bet when the resolution is imminent is dangerous. Doing so without a tx fee is suicidal. The rules governing this possibility are in BitBet's FAQ.

It is unfortunate that you deemed it alright to wager your BTC with a service whose guidelines you had not read, and before you had grasped the concepts of transactions and confirmations in the first place. That you made these choices, however, is not anybody else's concern.

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question is a just one.

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November 19, 2013, 10:32:34 PM
 #4

What else should they do?! As long as a transaction is not in a block, it could be double spent away. I agree that it is not a nice way to deal with this issue, but you are free to use their "service". I sure didn't and I know why.

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November 19, 2013, 10:36:14 PM
 #5

Sounds like bitbet is taking advantage of it's customers. I don't see how it's possibly justified to just keep all 10 bitcoins, it's still slimy and unprofessional even if it is in the FAQ. And if the service is in fact notoriously inept, then the blame for that still falls largely on the service and not the customers who get taken like suckers. The thing to do as I see it is to alert other customers to the service's shadiness and urge the service to resolve the situation and improve their policies. Chastising the customer for getting taken doesn't really help.
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November 19, 2013, 10:41:40 PM
 #6

What else should they do?! As long as a transaction is not in a block, it could be double spent away. I agree that it is not a noce way to deal with this issue, but you are free to use their "service". I sure didn't and I know why.

I don't see how it would be any skin off their back to return transfers that are confirmed by the network post-bet closing. The 1% fee that they deduct for bets arriving after bet satisfaction isn't unreasonable, and could be applied to this situation as well. As far as I can tell, the difference between bet closing and bet satisfaction is immaterial except for their inside accounting/business practices (and perhaps so that they can poach the coins). A "benefit" to users of the site is that the moderators have a clear incentive - all unconfirmed bet transfers - to close bets ASAP.

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November 19, 2013, 10:48:45 PM
 #7

I joined Bitbet's IRC channel to seek a solution to my problem before the bet closed (seeing that the transaction hadn't been picked up by the network) and was treated very rudely, similar to MPOE-PR's response but with more ad hominem.

The silly thing is that if they didn't have these shady policies and made a few usability adjustments their service could be much more popular.

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November 19, 2013, 10:52:26 PM
 #8

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question is a just one.

That the concepts weren't grasped was inferred from the suggestion that there is something unjust about the rule, and that a service has any obligation to remedy the fact that a user failed to include a tx fee. It's not meant as an insult, it's meant to explain to you how and why the steps you took were taken at great risk to your BTC.

You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care. In either case, it is you that will have to adjust (and I do earnestly hope that you do; there are a lot of resources on this very forum, on IRC, and around the web that can help).


And if the service is in fact notoriously inept

Learn to read.

At any rate, this isn't a chastisement. If you fuck up to this degree, you're stuck having fucked up.

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November 19, 2013, 11:05:04 PM
 #9

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question is a just one.

That the concepts weren't grasped was inferred from the suggestion that there is something unjust about the rule, and that a service has any obligation to remedy the fact that a user failed to include a tx fee. It's not meant as an insult, it's meant to explain to you how and why the steps you took were taken at great risk to your BTC.

You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care. In either case, it is you that will have to adjust (and I do earnestly hope that you do; there are a lot of resources on this very forum, on IRC, and around the web that can help).

Transaction fee present or not, the rule is unjust because it keeps customers' bitcoin for no good reason. The fact that my failure to include a transaction fee has to be 'remedied' (your word choice is an unfair use of rhetoric - are you connected to Bitbet in any way?) is only due to Bitbet's unfair policy. Furthermore, the blame for the lack of transaction fee on my transfer resides solely with Bets of Bitcoin (who have yet to respond to my email saying as much, btw).

Your so-called 'earnest' hope that I 'adjust' smacks of still more self-righteous condescension.

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November 19, 2013, 11:06:48 PM
 #10

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question is a just one.

That the concepts weren't grasped was inferred from the suggestion that there is something unjust about the rule, and that a service has any obligation to remedy the fact that a user failed to include a tx fee. It's not meant as an insult, it's meant to explain to you how and why the steps you took were taken at great risk to your BTC.


What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.
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November 19, 2013, 11:14:22 PM
 #11

[...]are you connected to Bitbet in any way?
Well, bitbet is owned and operated by Mircea Popescu, the self proclaimed mastermind of all that is Bitcoin and prowd owner overlord employer of MPOE-PR. Roll Eyes

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
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snackman
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November 19, 2013, 11:20:11 PM
 #12

[...]are you connected to Bitbet in any way?
Well, bitbet is owned and operated by Mircea Popescu, the self proclaimed mastermind of all that is Bitcoin and prowd owner overlord employer of MPOE-PR. Roll Eyes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MPoqqzwdY

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November 19, 2013, 11:26:25 PM
 #13

What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.

Explaining to users quite amply and repeatedly that going against sense and acting in a particularly risky manner is not wise and will not result in refunds, and acting accordingly, has nothing in common with stealing.

Moreover:

If you want to use the service you'll have to read and understand. Operators that bend the rules to fix your mistakes for you can't meanwhile be publicly traded and held. The policy's not going away, but you can certainly prevent yourself from making totally unnecessary mistakes.

Transaction fee present or not, the rule is unjust because it keeps customers' bitcoin for no good reason. The fact that my failure to include a transaction fee has to be 'remedied' (your word choice is an unfair use of rhetoric - are you connected to Bitbet in any way?) is only due to Bitbet's unfair policy. Furthermore, the blame for the lack of transaction fee on my transfer resides solely with Bets of Bitcoin (who have yet to respond to my email saying as much, btw).

Your so-called 'earnest' hope that I 'adjust' smacks of still more self-righteous condescension.

Sigh. I understand that it's hard not to take it personally when you've lost BTC, but no, seriously, if you're into BTC I think it'd be great if you spent the time and the energy (this isn't "condescension", again; it takes a lot of time and energy, far more than most people are used to expending, to wisely and correctly handle Bitcoin, especially with a zillion "services" out there run by the unskilled who won't tell people what they've done wrong, and instead try to band-aid over things with "being nice" until they inevitably fail and take everyone's coins with them) to get up to speed.

I'm "connected" to BitBet inasmuch as I represent MPEx here on the forums, and the owner co-owns BitBet itself. I see that you already talked to actual mods on IRC.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
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November 20, 2013, 01:11:52 AM
 #14

I'm "connected" to BitBet inasmuch as I represent MPEx here on the forums, and the owner co-owns BitBet itself. I see that you already talked to actual mods on IRC.
It's disingenuous for you to join this conversation without explicitly stating that you represent Bitbet (which your statement leaves no doubt of - in spite of the quotes around "connected"). No one in the IRC would declare their association with Bitbet, so no - I did not speak to "actual mods" on IRC.

Sigh. I understand that it's hard not to take it personally when you've lost BTC, but no, seriously [...]
To suggest that I'm "taking it personally" is to sidestep and downplay the issue at hand: namely that your site's policy is unjust and disreputable.

[...] with a zillion "services" out there run by the unskilled who won't tell people what they've done wrong, and instead try to band-aid over things with "being nice" until they inevitably fail and take everyone's coins with them [...]
This is irrelevant.

What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.

Explaining to users quite amply and repeatedly that going against sense and acting in a particularly risky manner is not wise and will not result in refunds, and acting accordingly, has nothing in common with stealing.

You still haven't explained the reason that Bitbet steals the coins - I only went "against sense" and acted in a "particularly risky manner" in the context of your site's nonsensical, predatory policy.

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November 20, 2013, 01:18:26 AM
 #15

I noticed more than a few bets with incorrect resolution dates at BitBet,

which they do not change or fix. Really have to read the fine print with these folks.

I love the "tough shit" attitude- not what anybody would want to hear when expressing a grievance.
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November 20, 2013, 01:24:22 AM
 #16

What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.

Explaining to users quite amply and repeatedly that going against sense and acting in a particularly risky manner is not wise and will not result in refunds, and acting accordingly, has nothing in common with stealing.

You still haven't explained the reason that Bitbet steals the coins - I only went "against sense" and acted in a "particularly risky manner" in the context of your site's nonsensical, predatory policy.

I sincerely have no idea why someone puts bitcoin in that place after seeing that rule.

If a couple of pools were interested in fucking up MP's reputation, they could start taking longer to include transactions into blocks if bitbet addresses are involved. Just take care to not wait for way too many blocks, otherwise the pool's reputation get fucked.
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November 20, 2013, 12:50:06 PM
 #17

I sincerely have no idea why someone puts bitcoin in that place after seeing that rule.

If a couple of pools were interested in fucking up MP's reputation, they could start taking longer to include transactions into blocks if bitbet addresses are involved. Just take care to not wait for way too many blocks, otherwise the pool's reputation get fucked.

Why do people who have no idea about anything (such as you) feel the need to prove it in writing? Go start a pool, fail, then see why the pools that succeed don't fuck with the Central Bank of Bitcoin.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
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November 20, 2013, 12:57:58 PM
 #18

I sincerely have no idea why someone puts bitcoin in that place after seeing that rule.

If a couple of pools were interested in fucking up MP's reputation, they could start taking longer to include transactions into blocks if bitbet addresses are involved. Just take care to not wait for way too many blocks, otherwise the pool's reputation get fucked.

Why do people who have no idea about anything (such as you) feel the need to prove it in writing? Go start a pool, fail, then see why the pools that succeed don't fuck with the Central Bank of Bitcoin.

So your reply is that stealing coins is fine ? Central Bank of Bitcoin, lol

It is cool that even trying to make this reply as stupid as I could, yours is still way ahead in the stupidness level. Calling names doesn't get issues fixed, darling.
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November 20, 2013, 08:40:05 PM
 #19

You still haven't explained the reason that Bitbet steals the coins - I only went "against sense" and acted in a "particularly risky manner" in the context of your site's nonsensical, predatory policy.

MPOE-PR, please explain Bitbet's rationale for the policy.

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November 20, 2013, 09:13:32 PM
 #20

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.
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