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Author Topic: Why Bitcoin is ultimately doomed to fail (not today or tomorrow)  (Read 40864 times)
deisik (OP)
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December 11, 2013, 09:11:37 PM
 #181

Actually, I'm not very familiar with the clones you refer to, though I agree that bitcoin (and likely the rest of the crew) makes a poor means of exchange. But if you are right and the clones are really as good as you paint them, what's the point actually? We could just as well use a clone if it does prove to be really better than bitcoin as a store of value...

I was referring specifically to it being gold 2.0. Bitcoin is easily copied and there is copious evidence to this, and those copies have quite handily stolen some percentage of marketshare from bitcoin. This is not analogous to gold vs other precious metals as there is essentially no cost to bootstrapping these new currencies. The store of value property can only hold for as long as people are willing to transact in the currency and pay what will be exorbitant tx fees (comparatively) to support mining. This is a serious conflict.

As a counter-argument I can refer you to "paper" gold (gold futures and other derivatives) whose volume by far exceeds actual physical gold available for delivery. This significantly undermines its use as a store of value. Also, if we talk about real gold (methinks, only this can be counted as a store of value), its storage is not cheap on the whole either. Unlike bitcoin, you just can't hide the possession of gold from prying eyes and ears (some people would always know about it), neither can you encrypt your vault so that it will be next to impossible to withdraw your shiny metal from there...

As you can see, gold 1.0 is likely not as good as it may appear at first glance

Etlase2
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December 11, 2013, 09:30:43 PM
 #182

As a counter-argument I can refer you to "paper" gold (gold futures and other derivatives) whose volume by far exceeds actual physical gold available for delivery.

Right, bitcoin plus the clones are vaguely equal to "gold and its derivatives 2.0", not gold.

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Also, if we talk about real gold (methinks, only this can be counted as a store of value),

I disagree with you here. A store of value does not have to gain, lose, or remain stable in purchasing power to be a store of value, it just has to not become (mostly) worthless on short timescales. At least in the traditional way of thinking. Of course bitcoinomics would probably describe the perfect store of value as a pyramid scheme.

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As you can see, gold 1.0 is likely not as good as it may appear at first glance

:shrug: I have little appreciation for gold 1.0 as more than a metal that doesn't corrode.

deisik (OP)
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December 11, 2013, 09:42:19 PM
 #183

Also, if we talk about real gold (methinks, only this can be counted as a store of value),

I disagree with you here. A store of value does not have to gain, lose, or remain stable in purchasing power to be a store of value, it just has to not become (mostly) worthless on short timescales. At least in the traditional way of thinking. Of course bitcoinomics would probably describe the perfect store of value as a pyramid scheme.

A store of value would not be that if it were to lose its purchasing power, by definition. It has to gain through time, or at least remain stable in near term. Bitcoin has deflationary nature by itself, though its volatility through low volume of trades doesn't currently make it a good store of value either. If it persists though, this might change gradually...

Etlase2
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December 11, 2013, 09:55:46 PM
 #184

A store of value would not be that if it were to lose its purchasing power, by definition. It has to gain through time,

By what nonsense would it have to gain through time?

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or at least remain stable in near term.

Is all that is required. "Store of value" does not imply in perpetuity. Virtually every definition of store of value considers fiat currencies of stable governments stores of value even though they lose value over time. They are still predictable stores of value. I do not believe you are a bitcoin homer, so I really hope you don't have to resort to bitcoinomics here to explain that the modern economic definition is wrong.

deisik (OP)
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December 11, 2013, 09:57:37 PM
Last edit: December 11, 2013, 10:22:44 PM by deisik
 #185

A store of value would not be that if it were to lose its purchasing power, by definition. It has to gain through time,

By what nonsense would it have to gain through time?

Firstly, in nominal terms through depreciation of the currency its price is denominated in, and, secondly, in real purchasing power due to expansion of economy and growth of population, as was the case with gold backed dollar throughout the 19th century (excluding the period of Civil War)...

deisik (OP)
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December 11, 2013, 10:00:03 PM
 #186

or at least remain stable in near term.

Is all that is required. "Store of value" does not imply in perpetuity. Virtually every definition of store of value considers fiat currencies of stable governments stores of value even though they lose value over time. They are still predictable stores of value. I do not believe you are a bitcoin homer, so I really hope you don't have to resort to bitcoinomics here to explain that the modern economic definition is wrong.

How is that correlated with what you said before about a store of value not having to gain, lose, or remain stable in purchasing power?

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December 11, 2013, 10:36:01 PM
 #187

There is no such thing as a barter economy. Never ever in history. Since the era of self-sufficient communities endet about 10'000 years ago and business/market/collectivism/church/state (organized violence) was installed, the money was debt and the debt was money, backed by a fraction of anything (metal or grain) that the state demanded as the tribute (tax).
Etlase2
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December 11, 2013, 10:44:04 PM
 #188

How is that correlated with what you said before about a store of value not having to gain, lose, or remain stable in purchasing power?

Because I was saying then that there is no specific requirement for a store of value in regards to purchasing power other than it cannot quickly become worthless. Obviously a store has to be at least one of the three, it certainly does not have to increase in value. And stability and near term are rather subjective terms.

Firstly, in nominal terms through depreciation of the currency its price is denominated in, and, secondly, in real purchasing power due to expansion of economy and growth of population, as was the case with gold backed dollar throughout the 19th century (excluding the period of Civil War)...

You are making the presumption (in the first sentence) that a store of value has to have some fixed quantity which is not true of any store of value in the history of ever, including bitcoin when considering its derivatives. And then you compare today's depreciating currencies with a relatively stable one (lol except for time period X) as an example of the store which is a rather confused comparison. Differing policies lead to differing results. Gold-backed currency was used to back Lincoln into a corner where his only option was to devise a new currency to fund the war. This, of course, significantly reduced the value of gold-backed currency (but it did not eliminate it as a store of value, it just became a quickly depreciated one that was far from worthless), but we're getting fairly tangential to the topic.

deisik (OP)
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December 12, 2013, 08:10:31 AM
Last edit: December 12, 2013, 08:51:58 AM by deisik
 #189

Firstly, in nominal terms through depreciation of the currency its price is denominated in, and, secondly, in real purchasing power due to expansion of economy and growth of population, as was the case with gold backed dollar throughout the 19th century (excluding the period of Civil War)...

You are making the presumption (in the first sentence) that a store of value has to have some fixed quantity which is not true of any store of value in the history of ever, including bitcoin when considering its derivatives.

Actually, it is you who is making such assumption here and then, on this basis, arduously trying to refute my point. I don't find it any good that you took to these tactics. A store of value will be appreciating in nominal value (provided all other things being equal) as long as the currency supply will be exceeding the supply of this store of value in relative terms. This almost always holds true in history when a store of value is not the same as a medium of exchange, otherwise the former would quickly cease to be a store of value...

deisik (OP)
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December 12, 2013, 08:17:19 AM
Last edit: December 12, 2013, 08:28:28 AM by deisik
 #190

Gold-backed currency was used to back Lincoln into a corner where his only option was to devise a new currency to fund the war. This, of course, significantly reduced the value of gold-backed currency (but it did not eliminate it as a store of value, it just became a quickly depreciated one that was far from worthless), but we're getting fairly tangential to the topic.

Yes, what you say is fairly tangential to the topic, but I think that I gave you a good example when a store of value (gold and gold backed dollar) had been getting purchasing power through the whole century (the period of Civil War excluded) primarily due to massive economic growth and rapid growth of population...

deisik (OP)
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December 12, 2013, 08:23:58 AM
Last edit: December 12, 2013, 08:51:38 AM by deisik
 #191

How is that correlated with what you said before about a store of value not having to gain, lose, or remain stable in purchasing power?

Because I was saying then that there is no specific requirement for a store of value in regards to purchasing power other than it cannot quickly become worthless. Obviously a store has to be at least one of the three, it certainly does not have to increase in value. And stability and near term are rather subjective terms.

I think that I've given here enough both historical example and logical reason to deem this question closed for now unless you provide substantial evidence that would actually refute my arguments besides just stating that I am wrong because I am wrong and sticking to petty semantics...

Etlase2
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December 12, 2013, 01:08:51 PM
 #192

I think that I've given here enough both historical example and logical reason to deem this question closed for now unless you provide substantial evidence that would actually refute my arguments besides just stating that I am wrong because I am wrong and sticking to petty semantics...

What is this, a 6th grade debate class? There is no question, there is a definition that has the logical property "X can be either A, B, or C" and you have attempted to refute this by saying "here is an X with property C, your definition is invalid!" and tried to use a statement of mine out of context a post later as something--I'm not sure what--but it definitely isn't an argument.

deisik (OP)
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December 12, 2013, 01:30:22 PM
 #193

I think that I've given here enough both historical example and logical reason to deem this question closed for now unless you provide substantial evidence that would actually refute my arguments besides just stating that I am wrong because I am wrong and sticking to petty semantics...

What is this, a 6th grade debate class? There is no question, there is a definition that has the logical property "X can be either A, B, or C" and you have attempted to refute this by saying "here is an X with property C, your definition is invalid!" and tried to use a statement of mine out of context a post later as something--I'm not sure what--but it definitely isn't an argument.

In fact, you said that "a store has to be at least one of the three, it certainly does not have to increase in value". I tell you that a store of value cannot be losing (one of those three properties you claim it might have) in value in the long term, otherwise it won't be a store of value in the first place. Why it actually should be gaining purchasing power with time (let alone nominal value), I have also provided cogent reasons for, and gave you historical evidence of this. So your "definition" is wrong. If you come to disagree, substantiate your claims with either evidence or through logic...

Who is actually trying to make a 6th grade debate here?

Etlase2
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December 12, 2013, 02:03:32 PM
 #194

I tell you that a store of value cannot be losing (one of those three properties you claim it might have) in value in the long term, otherwise it won't be a store of value in the first place.

Then you simply do not know or do not understand the correct definition. But feel free to make up a new one, that is a commonplace way of arguing one's point around here.

deisik (OP)
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December 12, 2013, 02:31:32 PM
 #195

I tell you that a store of value cannot be losing (one of those three properties you claim it might have) in value in the long term, otherwise it won't be a store of value in the first place.

Then you simply do not know or do not understand the correct definition. But feel free to make up a new one, that is a commonplace way of arguing one's point around here.

Before saying anything like that, you should provide a definition which you consider as canonical (or at least as it is defined in one of the well-established theories of value/money)... I'm all ears, go ahead!

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December 12, 2013, 03:16:04 PM
Last edit: December 12, 2013, 06:55:09 PM by AnonyMint
 #196

Bitcoin can't survive as a store-of-value if it is not also providing some needed function, because its store-of-value can be replicated at-will. Etlase2 is correct.

The possible functions a crypto-unit might provide are which might have a Buffetesque moat due to network-effects:

1. Anonymity

2. Decentralized medium-of-exchange.

3. Decentralized ledger of value.

Bitcoin doesn't really have #1 because your anonymity depends on what the other users do since it is only valid if a process of elimination isn't going to work. Bitcoin doesn't have #2 because capital gains taxes are due on Bitcoin but not on legal tender, which can be enforced because of lack of #1.

The utility of #3 is pretty much destroyed without #1, due to net worth tax coming (because current global debt is $150 trillion).

See how everything hinges on #1?

P.S. Many are concerned the government will crack down on an anonymous currency. But think about this. If there is a way to hide assets with very high confidence, the politicians will rob the government blind and government will collapse faster than the blink of an eye. I think that would be perfect. A very anarchist outcome. Still not think the Madmax is coming?

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December 12, 2013, 03:22:20 PM
Last edit: December 12, 2013, 03:45:21 PM by tacotime
 #197

Perhaps I should make my argument more clear.  The implied assumption is that the evolution will go:

Bitcoins -> paper Bitcoins -> central bank

I'm saying it's much more likely to be:

Bitcoins -> paper Bitcoins -> Bitcoins

Actually, what you say should be written as following:

Bitcoins -> paper Bitcoins by all banks (causes inflation and bank-runs) -> paper Bitcoins by Central Bank (establishment of gold Bitcoin standard)

And after that we begin running into ever deepening economic crises which finally bring about dismantling of the Bitcoin standard (see the Great Depression), so the last step will be:

paper Bitcoins by Central Bank (causes deflation and incessant economic crises) -> fiat by Central Bank (Bitcoin standard dismantled)

This argument is wrong for these reasons.  Let's use the wikipedia article on the gold standard.

Quote
The unequal distribution of gold deposits makes the gold standard more advantageous for those countries that produce gold.[61] In 2010 the largest producers of gold, in order, were China, Australia, US, South Africa and Russia.[62] The country with the largest reserves is Australia.[63]
Not a problem with Bitcoin, especially when 100% has been generated.

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The gold standard acts as a limit on economic growth. "As an economy's productive capacity grows, then so should its money supply. Because a gold standard requires that money be backed in the metal, then the scarcity of the metal constrains the ability of the economy to produce more capital and grow."[64]
This statement is itself not true.  Bitcoin itself simply becomes more valuable, and everyone moves on with their day.

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Mainstream economists believe that economic recessions can be largely mitigated by increasing the money supply during economic downturns.[65] A gold standard means that the money supply would be determined by the gold supply and hence monetary policy could no longer be used to stabilize the economy.[66] The gold standard is often blamed for prolonging the Great Depression, as under the gold standard, central banks could not expand credit at a fast enough rate to offset deflationary forces.[67]
Mainstream economists are mostly just wrong on this issue; quoting Greenspan: "Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard."

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Although the gold standard brings long-run price stability, it is historically associated with high short-run price volatility.[51][68] It has been argued by Schwartz, among others, that instability in short-term price levels can lead to financial instability as lenders and borrowers become uncertain about the value of debt.[68]
Adjustments in price affecting debtors/creditors can be mitigated by contracting against the value of more stable commodities like wheat, not against Bitcoin itself.  You need to build price increases due to deflation into the contract itself, which for some reason seems to baffle economists as a possibility.

Example: Jimmy borrows 50,000 0.0001 BTC bank notes from the bank to help buy a house, which is worth 5 BTC.  The price of BTC in wheat bushel equivalents (or whatever consumer price equivalents) increases two-fold in a year, and now Jimmy owes the bank twice as much.  But wait!  What if Jimmy instead borrowed against the value of wheat?  Jimmy owes 200,000 wheat bushel equivalents in this year and next, and the "price" of wheat bushels has more or less stayed the same even though BTC value has fluctuated a lot -- so Jimmy is okay.

You just need to make the commodity backing an aggregate average of a lot of materials with stable prices... eg wheat, soybean, steel, rice, gold, and a million other things.

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Deflation punishes debtors.[69][70] Real debt burdens therefore rise, causing borrowers to cut spending to service their debts or to default. Lenders become wealthier, but may choose to save some of the additional wealth, reducing GDP.[71]
See above.

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The money supply would essentially be determined by the rate of gold production. When gold stocks increase more rapidly than the economy, there is inflation and the reverse is also true.[51][72] The consensus view is that the gold standard contributed to the severity and length of the Great Depression.[73][74]
Because economists can't figure out appropriate ways to control inflation by pricing against essential commodities, they assume the above statement is true.

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Hamilton contended that the gold standard is susceptible to speculative attacks when a government's financial position appears weak. Conversely, this threat discourages governments from engaging in risky policy (see moral hazard). For example, the US was forced to contract the money supply and raise interest rates in September 1931 to defend the dollar after speculators forced the UK off the gold standard.[74][75][76][77]
I don't really consider this a problem.

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Devaluing a currency under a gold standard would generally produce sharper changes than the smooth declines seen in fiat currencies, depending on the method of devaluation.[78]
This is an issue the banks need to solve.

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Most economists favor a low, positive rate of inflation of around 2%. This reflects fear of deflationary shocks and the belief that active monetary policy can dampen fluctuations in output and unemployment. Inflation gives them room to tighten policy without inducing deflation.[79]
There is no deflation once all Bitcoin has been issued.

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A gold standard provides practical constraints against the measures that central banks might otherwise use to respond to economic crises.[80] Creation of new money reduces interest rates and thereby increases demand for new lower cost debt, raising the demand for money.[81]
I don't think the second sentence is true.

The anonymity issue is fixed simply by the usage of paper derivatives and having a bank that doesn't issue more paper derivatives than they have.  ZeroCoin and forks will probably also fix this, and Bitcoin itself can fix this by adopting ZeroCoin protocol.

If you're wondering about investment, people will can invest versus commodity contracts as well, eg, lend on the commodity index, and ask for 1.05% of the commodity index in Bitcoin in return.  You're investing in a service that you believe will be more valuable to the population than other services in the years to come, and hence, will sequester more Bitcoins.

The problem isn't with Bitcoin backing things, it's with banks not being able to appropriately determine what "price" is and with central banks/governments deciding that they need more money rather than seeking resolutions to their problems that don't involve the magic generation of more money.  I have a feeling that the progressive manipulation of fiat inflation at low single digits will eventually lead to a catastrophic crisis that is more severe than the ones we've seen previously.  And it's clear from the negative inflation rates of German bonds in the past few years that even making paper derivatives and increasing their inflation to try to manipulate the economy can not prevent deflation in some cases.

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deisik (OP)
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December 12, 2013, 03:44:09 PM
 #198

Actually, what you say should be written as following:

Bitcoins -> paper Bitcoins by all banks (causes inflation and bank-runs) -> paper Bitcoins by Central Bank (establishment of gold Bitcoin standard)

And after that we begin running into ever deepening economic crises which finally bring about dismantling of the Bitcoin standard (see the Great Depression), so the last step will be:

paper Bitcoins by Central Bank (causes deflation and incessant economic crises) -> fiat by Central Bank (Bitcoin standard dismantled)

This argument is wrong for these reasons.  Let's use the wikipedia article on the gold standard.

Quote
The unequal distribution of gold deposits makes the gold standard more advantageous for those countries that produce gold.[61] In 2010 the largest producers of gold, in order, were China, Australia, US, South Africa and Russia.[62] The country with the largest reserves is Australia.[63]

Could you please expand more on this? Not saying that you're wrong, just don't get your point and how it is related to the issue at hand, i.e. how unequal distribution of gold deposits could support the gold standard itself and mend its inherent deficiencies?

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December 12, 2013, 03:47:27 PM
 #199

Could you please expand more on this? Not saying that you're wrong, just don't get your point and how it is related to the issue at hand, i.e. how unequal distribution of gold deposits could support the gold standard itself and mend its inherent deficiencies?

Sorry, I should have mentioned that these are deficiencies listed on the Wikipedia page for gold standard:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

See, "disadvantages"

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deisik (OP)
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December 12, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
 #200

Could you please expand more on this? Not saying that you're wrong, just don't get your point and how it is related to the issue at hand, i.e. how unequal distribution of gold deposits could support the gold standard itself and mend its inherent deficiencies?

Sorry, I should have mentioned that these are deficiencies listed on the Wikipedia page for gold standard:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

See, "disadvantages"

I don't doubt about the disadvantage you advanced here (lol), but I didn't mean this as being a primary disadvantage that I was referring to when I compared Bitcoin "standard" with gold standard and through which, in my opinion, Bitcoin should fail in the end...

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