Why Bitcoin will collapse in price.

[porc]

Tullips (at they had some value) where once enormously expensive. Does that mean that Tulips where worth their price?

Of course, if you found someone to buy it.

Why would somebody buy nothing (bitcoin) for something (goods)?

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[diedicar]

ok: lets say we are in 17th century and you are a merchant.
I'm a magician and i tell you that i can sell you a magic paper with some unique proprieties:
1 everything you write ther will stay forever
2 everybody in the world can check the content.
there is no way to destroy or alterate this paper.

Do you think this is worth something more than a tulip?

[knarzo]

Tullips (at they had some value) where once enormously expensive. Does that mean that Tulips where worth their price?

Of course, if you found someone to buy it.

Why would somebody buy nothing (bitcoin) for something (goods)?

Bitcoin is valuable (or has value, if such form suits you better) to those people who find the properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims. These are security, deflationary nature, fixed supply and limited number of coins ultimately possible to mine. Probably, there are some other properties that contribute to its subjective valuation by people, but these will suffice. Once you get the hang how things actually work with respect to valuation, everything will become clear and easily comprehensible...

[flynn]

Tullips (at they had some value) where once enormously expensive. Does that mean that Tulips where worth their price?

Of course, if you found someone to buy it.

Why would somebody buy nothing (bitcoin) for something (goods)?

In case of tulips, history has just proven that people did buy them.
In case of Biotcoins, it seems that they are buying them too.

You are just showing that markets are often irrational. Congratulations.

But here is the thing : they don't have to be rational.
Ok what's next ?

[porc]

Bitcoin is valuable because???

Say why you think Bitcoin has value!!

Bitcoin is valuable (or has value, if such form suits you better) to those people who find the properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims. These are security, deflationary nature, fixed supply and limited number of coins ultimately possible to mine. Probably, there are some other properties that contribute to its subjective valuation by people, but these will suffice. Once you get the hang how things actually work with respect to valuation, everything will become clear and easily comprehensible...

"who find properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims."


Well obviously people believe (aims?) that bitcoin can be a 1) medium of exchange and 2) store of value.

 I have already established why both of these functions require! certain properties to be present, that bitcoin does not have.

1) Any widespread media of exchange that ever existed, always had inherent value (something). The reason for this is that people will only exchange something for something. NOBDODY! wants to exchange something for nothing. Bitcoin has no inherent value (examples of inherent value: water thirst, food hunger, house shelter, gold, art decoration/pretty/ industry). Thus bitcoin has already failed in this aspect.

2) If nobody wants to exchange something for nothing (bitcoin), bitcoin cant be a store of value.

"To act as a store of value, these forms must be able to be saved and retrieved at a later time, and be predictably useful when retrieved." WIKI

Bitcoin is not useful now and therefore wont be useful in future. Thus it fails to meet the requirements of a store of value as well.

Again you have not made an argument against my position.

Now right now people pay for Bitcoin because they think it will go up in price. This might be the case, but it will revert to its inherent value: 0.

[deisik]

Bitcoin is valuable (or has value, if such form suits you better) to those people who find the properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims. These are security, deflationary nature, fixed supply and limited number of coins ultimately possible to mine. Probably, there are some other properties that contribute to its subjective valuation by people, but these will suffice. Once you get the hang how things actually work with respect to valuation, everything will become clear and easily comprehensible...

"who find properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims."


Well obviously people believe (aims?) that bitcoin can be a 1) medium of exchange and 2) store of value.

I have already given a specific list of bitcoin properties that people here usually consider useful for attaining their ends. These properties give Bitcoin subjective value to those who need them. Is this really so hard to understand? And please stop conjuring up what was not written in my post and trying then to refute what you just concocted. This looks really ugly...

[knarzo]

Bitcoin is not useful now and therefore wont be useful in future.

Good that you are telling what is useful and what is not Get a new account and try again

[deisik]

1) Any widespread media of exchange that ever existed, always had inherent value (something). The reason for this is that people will only exchange something for something. NOBDODY! wants to exchange something for nothing. Bitcoin has no inherent value (examples of inherent value: water thirst, food hunger, house shelter, gold, art decoration/pretty/ industry). Thus bitcoin has already failed in this aspect.

There is no inherent value to anything as far as human valuation is concerned. Each man has his own conception of value (that is why it is called subjective value in the first place) over anything. If it were otherwise, no exchange would ever be possible at all. People exchange goods only because their subjective valuation of the goods that change hands differs...

[fluidjax]

To paraphrase Eric Voorhees,
Bitcoin is unfortunately the name of two things.

1) it is the name of the Bitcoin protocol, which describes how the block chain, mining, etc. works.
This protocol performs some useful functions that no other money system can currently match. (Fast cheap transfer to any where in the world, robust etc etc) The Bitcoin protocol clearly has a value, and the value comes from its utility.
2) The Bitcoin protocol has been implemented to allow transfer of a digital currency, this currency is also called Bitcoin. A Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and is commonly misuderstood to be what Bitcoin is all about.

[Extravagant]

It's good that after 4 years someone finally stepped in and explained to us why bitcoin will fail. Thank you OP! 

AHAHAHAHA,

For some reason that response made me laugh my arss off.

Its so fitting, and true.

Nice one PandP!

[porc]

1) Any widespread media of exchange that ever existed, always had inherent value (something). The reason for this is that people will only exchange something for something. NOBDODY! wants to exchange something for nothing. Bitcoin has no inherent value (examples of inherent value: water thirst, food hunger, house shelter, gold, art decoration/pretty/ industry). Thus bitcoin has already failed in this aspect.

There is no inherent value to anything as far as human valuation is concerned. Each man has his own conception of value (that is why it is called subjective value in the first place) over anything. If it were otherwise, no exchange would ever be possible at all. People exchange goods only because their subjective valuation of the goods that change hands differs...

repeating the tired arguments of a bitcoiner I have refuted up thread already.

Yes value is subjective, but you cant explain to me what I CAN DO WITH BITCOIN. Get that?

Water has value as I can quench my thirst. Food has value as so I dont starve to death. Nobody will say: Ohh needing to drink water (any form of liquid) to survive is subjective. Some people dont need to drink. You just hide behind this subjective value theory (which is correct insofar as it says that value judgements change from individual to individual) but can not state 1 thing I can DO with bitcoin.

I can state one thing I can do with gold (jewelry, its nice to look at for most people). What can anybody do with bitcoin in any situation? Say 1 thing?

[porc]

To paraphrase Eric Voorhees,
Bitcoin is unfortunately the name of two things.

1) it is the name of the Bitcoin protocol, which describes how the block chain, mining, etc. works.
This protocol performs some useful functions that no other money system can currently match. (Fast cheap transfer to any where in the world, robust etc etc) The Bitcoin protocol clearly has a value, and the value comes from its utility.
2) The Bitcoin protocol has been implemented to allow transfer of a digital currency, this currency is also called Bitcoin. A Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and is commonly misuderstood to be what Bitcoin is all about.

1) What is the value of the bitcoin protocol? To what extend does the bitcoin protocol give bitcoin value? 2) no disagreement here.

[deisik]

To paraphrase Eric Voorhees,
Bitcoin is unfortunately the name of two things.

1) it is the name of the Bitcoin protocol, which describes how the block chain, mining, etc. works.
This protocol performs some useful functions that no other money system can currently match. (Fast cheap transfer to any where in the world, robust etc etc) The Bitcoin protocol clearly has a value, and the value comes from its utility.
2) The Bitcoin protocol has been implemented to allow transfer of a digital currency, this currency is also called Bitcoin. A Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and is commonly misuderstood to be what Bitcoin is all about.

As far as modern economics is concerned there is no such notion as intrinsic value. It does really exist in finances but it has very specific usage which has nothing do with what is being discussed here. To say that Bitcoin as a currency doesn't have intrinsic value would automatically imply there is something which has such value. This is false

[deisik]

repeating the tired arguments of a bitcoiner I have refuted up thread already.

Where? Show that piece now. I think you can't even fancy what real refutation looks like...

[porc]

To paraphrase Eric Voorhees,
Bitcoin is unfortunately the name of two things.

1) it is the name of the Bitcoin protocol, which describes how the block chain, mining, etc. works.
This protocol performs some useful functions that no other money system can currently match. (Fast cheap transfer to any where in the world, robust etc etc) The Bitcoin protocol clearly has a value, and the value comes from its utility.
2) The Bitcoin protocol has been implemented to allow transfer of a digital currency, this currency is also called Bitcoin. A Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and is commonly misuderstood to be what Bitcoin is all about.

As far as modern economics is concerned there is no such notion as intrinsic value. Such notion does really exist in finances but it has very specific usage which has nothing do with what is being discussed here. To say that Bitcoin as a currency doesn't have intrinsic value would automatically imply there is something which has such value. This is false

Stop with the intrinsic value bullshit. Cant you see it? Our value judgements are to a certain extend unalterable. We always want water and we always want food as we depend on these things for survival. Again for every thing I can list some use case.

I WANT YOUR SUBJECTIVE VALUE STATEMENT. WHAT CAN I DO WITH A BITCOIN? WHY IS THE BITCOIN VALUABLE FOR YOU?

Why cant you answer this question. Why do you continue to talk about intrinsic value. I dont care about intrinsic value. I want to know WHY you think 1 Bitcoin is valuable?

Thousands of people have all answered the question about gold value: They all think its pretty and thus they want to make jewelry out of it or they like to look at a gold bar. SIMPLE.

Again: What is your personal value judgement about bitcoin? What can I do with it? Why do you think it has value?

[deisik]

Yes value is subjective, but you cant explain to me what I CAN DO WITH BITCOIN. Get that?

You can exchange it for something you value from those who value it higher than what they exchange for it (provided you have it in the first place). Does it really require so much effort to understand this?

Don't repeat your posts and stop shouting

[porc]

Yes value is subjective, but you cant explain to me what I CAN DO WITH BITCOIN. Get that?

You can exchange it for something you value from those who value it higher than what they exchange for it. Does it really require so much effort to understand this?

Don't repeat your posts and be concise

No. Exchanging it for something does not make bitcoin valuable. I am asking why somebody would exchange a bitcoin for something?

Why has the bitcoin value.  "Because I can dump it on the next guy" does not address the question. That sounds like a pyramid. Nobody actually wants bitcoin. They all just want to dump it on the next guy.

The guy who you want to dump it on asks the question: Why should I take it? What can I do with it? If your answer is: Bitcoin has 0 value, but you can get others to exchange something valuable for it hopefully is the same as admitting that it is a pyramid.

[deisik]

Stop with the intrinsic value bullshit. Cant you see it? Our value judgements are to a certain extend unalterable. We always want water and we always want food as we depend on these things for survival. Again for every thing I can list some use case.

Have you ever heard about the law of marginal utility? If you are thirsty and hungry at the same time, then a bottle of water will be more valuable to you than any food, but once you have satisfied your thirst, you would be happy to exchange a second bottle of water for some food. How can this ever be possible if our value judgments were hard to change? If you had a million bottles of water, then what value would they be to you?

[deisik]

Yes value is subjective, but you cant explain to me what I CAN DO WITH BITCOIN. Get that?

You can exchange it for something you value from those who value it higher than what they exchange for it. Does it really require so much effort to understand this?

Don't repeat your posts and be concise

No. Exchanging it for something does not make bitcoin valuable. I am asking why somebody would exchange a bitcoin for something?

Because they value it higher than what they exchange for it. Why should I repeat this again and again and how many times will this take till you finally get it?

[deisik]

Why has the bitcoin value.  "Because I can dump it on the next guy" does not address the question. That sounds like a pyramid. Nobody actually wants bitcoin. They all just want to dump it on the next guy.

Even if it IS a pyramid, this doesn't change a thing. At the moment of the exchange he who buys bitcoin values it higher than what he gives in exchange for it, otherwise the exchange simply wouldn't happen. You just can't get away from this fact, whether you like it or not. It is subjective value that matters here. Why it is valued I have already explained earlier...