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minerjav
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April 11, 2014, 11:29:28 PM
 #281

They are manipulating the market to increase their profit to the roof, its common now see buy orders higher than sell orders in the orders book (something impossible, and you can see almost all days.).
You can't beat them, even with the best bot.

Today, they simulate a pump but they don't fill the orders in the middle (I had one sell order sent hours before, but they start trading higher without fill the sell orders in the middle).
I have a perfect record with many other exchanges, but the Cryptsy records didn't match my records (coins disappear from my account).

it's a fraud. Be careful !

I have tons of screen shoots with absurd numbers. Just check the orders book of LTC/BTC market today.

They didn't answer the support tickets.
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April 12, 2014, 12:53:59 AM
 #282

The owner/operator of Cryptsy is well known as he has repeatedly made it clear he is Paul Vernon from Del Ray Beach,Florida. Cryptsy is registered as a business with the State Florida. As such it makes it very easy to file complaints with the State of Florida over the issues we are having. Cryptsy is in the mid process of filing all the needed applications to enter into a USD market. The last thing they need are multiple complaints about financial mismanagement and issues right now as it would get them nixed pretty quickly. Florida is very aggressive on consumer issues like this and it doesn't matter if you reside outside the USA.

Paul Vernon himself, also know as BigVern needs to come in here and explain what is going on.  Not one of his "lackys" like BitJohn or pr9me but Paul Vernon himself.  I have a combined total of coins in limbo of about 63BTC. Enough is enough. Let us know what is going on or deal with the consequences.

What say you Paul Vernon?


UPDATE:

I took a day off on Thursday December 12th and drove up to Tallahassee to the Florida AG's Office. After about an hour lecture and introduction to Crypto for two Investigators and Assistant AG, I then showed them several exchanges and Cryptsy, who was operating inside the State of Florida. Excited wasn't the word, you would have thought it was Christmas in addition to their jaw's dropping when they saw the volume and the amount of unregulated $$$ flowing through Mr. Vernon's site. They were extremely concerned at the potential fraud that was happening and the theory of a possible multimillion dollar ponzi scheme just seemed to materialize out of thin air. While she said they couldn't determine "if anything was indeed amiss, they were certainly going to be talking to Mr. Vernon as well as contacting their Federal counterparts"

^ Asshats like you need to get out of Crypto for crying to the a State Government Authority. Just wow! Unregulated dollars? Are you a fucking moron? The OP must have much faith in the Federal Reserve and the corrupt banking system.  Roll Eyes

"jaw's dropping when they saw the volume and the amount of unregulated $$$?HuhHuh? flowing through Mr. Vernon's site." Last time I logged in I did not see any dollars being exchanged. The bases of Crypto is to be unregulated and not centralized you moron, for the people by the people.

I have been trading on crypty since the birth and I have never had any issues of missing coins etc, only the exchanges lag and stalls and sometimes coins taking a while to deposit. Cryptsy is sometimes frustrating because of bugs in the system but fuck peeps it needs time to mature.

To the dumb fuck who is trying to get the State Gov involved by filing a complaint, what a fucking moron. You need to provide proof to what you are claiming before you blow your asshole up, carry on asshat.

Cryptsy kill the BOTs to decrease the server load and bring back chat please.

Going to the Gov was a really bad move.
Cryptsy is a rare, decent exchange.

johncclarke
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May 08, 2014, 07:07:38 AM
 #283

Cryptsy is a diseased pile of crap that should be wiped off this earth.. this exchange will follow MtGox eventually and be brought to justice.

After months and months of fighting with them to give me back my BTC and them accusing me of "intentionally abusing" their system, they liquidated my account and took all my remaining coins which I was forced to leave there and I had hoped would be worth something again one day so I could at least get *some* of my investment back.

So, in short: Double spend bug bought twice the amount of QRK I wanted. Instead of selling immediately, I read people were losing money and decided I'll contact their support so they can sort it and others won't lose coin. It frustratingly took them more than 30 days to respond during which time QRK value dropped significantly. BitJohn said in a IRC chat I should be happy because they "lent" me QRK. I wasn't, I was infuriated because my account was in negative BTC and I couldn't remove the QRK either. So, I gave up and decided to wait. Lo and behold, I logged into my account yesterday and found ALL my QRK was sold on 6 March 2014. I contacted their support asking them WTF was going on, here is their response:

Quote
Hello *******,

You bought more QRK than you had money for. You then left your account inactive , with a negative BTC balance for several months. Your account was liquidated to try to recoup some of our losses after you abused your account.  This is your ledger of your running BTC balance, you can see where you intentionally abused the system.

<lots of transactions here>

 It is also your responsibility to check your balances as you trade and to not trade more than you own. Please deposit the BTC your account is negative to bring your account back into good standing.

Thank you,

Horus
Cryptsy Security
www.Cryptsy.com


So, you can say whatever you want about what I should've done, what I could've done better etc but here are the facts:

  • I tried to be a honest trader by logging a ticket rather than selling. If I sold, I would made more profit than I should've.
  • I was worried that if I "cheated" the exchange, I'd have my account closed down for exploitation/hacking
  • I have been repeatedly accused by 3 different staff members saying I "intentionally" tried to cheat the system, even after I've exhaustively explained what happened
  • My initial BTC investment is gone because of a double spend bug in their exchange
  • The QRK I had left behind is now gone too
  • They want me to deposit an additional amount of BTC to bring my account into "good standing"

FACT: Cryptsy will not take responsibility for their bugs, they will assume you exploited their exchange (does not matter how well you explain yourself and reference to logs / evidence), they will hold whatever coin you have and sell it without authorization (they didn't even send me an email advising me they'll be doing it. I had no warning.) to recoup "their" supposed loss. This exchange operates like a criminal enterprise and all off this within the borders of the United States.

Please listen carefully: Cryptsy will be shutdown eventually. Especially once they start taking USD deposits. Make sure your funds are NOT on Cryptsy when this happens. Don't give me the opportunity to say "I told you so, now shut the fuck up."
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May 08, 2014, 09:48:56 AM
 #284

Cryptsy is a diseased pile of crap that should be wiped off this earth.. this exchange will follow MtGox eventually and be brought to justice.

After months and months of fighting with them to give me back my BTC and them accusing me of "intentionally abusing" their system, they liquidated my account and took all my remaining coins which I was forced to leave there and I had hoped would be worth something again one day so I could at least get *some* of my investment back.

So, in short: Double spend bug bought twice the amount of QRK I wanted. Instead of selling immediately, I read people were losing money and decided I'll contact their support so they can sort it and others won't lose coin. It frustratingly took them more than 30 days to respond during which time QRK value dropped significantly. BitJohn said in a IRC chat I should be happy because they "lent" me QRK. I wasn't, I was infuriated because my account was in negative BTC and I couldn't remove the QRK either. So, I gave up and decided to wait. Lo and behold, I logged into my account yesterday and found ALL my QRK was sold on 6 March 2014. I contacted their support asking them WTF was going on, here is their response:

Quote
Hello *******,

You bought more QRK than you had money for. You then left your account inactive , with a negative BTC balance for several months. Your account was liquidated to try to recoup some of our losses after you abused your account.  This is your ledger of your running BTC balance, you can see where you intentionally abused the system.

<lots of transactions here>

 It is also your responsibility to check your balances as you trade and to not trade more than you own. Please deposit the BTC your account is negative to bring your account back into good standing.

Thank you,

Horus
Cryptsy Security
www.Cryptsy.com


So, you can say whatever you want about what I should've done, what I could've done better etc but here are the facts:

  • I tried to be a honest trader by logging a ticket rather than selling. If I sold, I would made more profit than I should've.
  • I was worried that if I "cheated" the exchange, I'd have my account closed down for exploitation/hacking
  • I have been repeatedly accused by 3 different staff members saying I "intentionally" tried to cheat the system, even after I've exhaustively explained what happened
  • My initial BTC investment is gone because of a double spend bug in their exchange
  • The QRK I had left behind is now gone too
  • They want me to deposit an additional amount of BTC to bring my account into "good standing"

FACT: Cryptsy will not take responsibility for their bugs, they will assume you exploited their exchange (does not matter how well you explain yourself and reference to logs / evidence), they will hold whatever coin you have and sell it without authorization (they didn't even send me an email advising me they'll be doing it. I had no warning.) to recoup "their" supposed loss. This exchange operates like a criminal enterprise and all off this within the borders of the United States.

Please listen carefully: Cryptsy will be shutdown eventually. Especially once they start taking USD deposits. Make sure your funds are NOT on Cryptsy when this happens. Don't give me the opportunity to say "I told you so, now shut the fuck up."

This is not good.
Are there any decent exchanges that are considered safe?
One by one they are biting the dust...
iHeartSmartArt
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May 08, 2014, 10:58:19 AM
 #285

Cryptocorp
"We build fraud detection and recoverability into your Bitcoin wallet. Our industry-leading HDM technology integrates with wallets and exchanges to reduce the risk of theft."
https://cryptocorp.co/

http://ytchannelembed.com/video.php?id=Ek3tYZ44h2k&t=  2mins in. The company will help you not store your coins on the exchange such as cryptsy.


You are just in time for the first anonymous digital currency. https://darkcointalk.org/
Hippie Tech
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May 08, 2014, 01:56:49 PM
 #286

Cryptsy is a diseased pile of crap that should be wiped off this earth.. this exchange will follow MtGox eventually and be brought to justice.

After months and months of fighting with them to give me back my BTC and them accusing me of "intentionally abusing" their system, they liquidated my account and took all my remaining coins which I was forced to leave there and I had hoped would be worth something again one day so I could at least get *some* of my investment back.

So, in short: Double spend bug bought twice the amount of QRK I wanted. Instead of selling immediately, I read people were losing money and decided I'll contact their support so they can sort it and others won't lose coin. It frustratingly took them more than 30 days to respond during which time QRK value dropped significantly. BitJohn said in a IRC chat I should be happy because they "lent" me QRK. I wasn't, I was infuriated because my account was in negative BTC and I couldn't remove the QRK either. So, I gave up and decided to wait. Lo and behold, I logged into my account yesterday and found ALL my QRK was sold on 6 March 2014. I contacted their support asking them WTF was going on, here is their response:

Quote
Hello *******,

You bought more QRK than you had money for. You then left your account inactive , with a negative BTC balance for several months. Your account was liquidated to try to recoup some of our losses after you abused your account.  This is your ledger of your running BTC balance, you can see where you intentionally abused the system.

<lots of transactions here>

 It is also your responsibility to check your balances as you trade and to not trade more than you own. Please deposit the BTC your account is negative to bring your account back into good standing.

Thank you,

Horus
Cryptsy Security
www.Cryptsy.com


So, you can say whatever you want about what I should've done, what I could've done better etc but here are the facts:

  • I tried to be a honest trader by logging a ticket rather than selling. If I sold, I would made more profit than I should've.
  • I was worried that if I "cheated" the exchange, I'd have my account closed down for exploitation/hacking
  • I have been repeatedly accused by 3 different staff members saying I "intentionally" tried to cheat the system, even after I've exhaustively explained what happened
  • My initial BTC investment is gone because of a double spend bug in their exchange
  • The QRK I had left behind is now gone too
  • They want me to deposit an additional amount of BTC to bring my account into "good standing"

FACT: Cryptsy will not take responsibility for their bugs, they will assume you exploited their exchange (does not matter how well you explain yourself and reference to logs / evidence), they will hold whatever coin you have and sell it without authorization (they didn't even send me an email advising me they'll be doing it. I had no warning.) to recoup "their" supposed loss. This exchange operates like a criminal enterprise and all off this within the borders of the United States.

Please listen carefully: Cryptsy will be shutdown eventually. Especially once they start taking USD deposits. Make sure your funds are NOT on Cryptsy when this happens. Don't give me the opportunity to say "I told you so, now shut the fuck up."

They are full of shit.

My deposit tripled minutes after it confirmed.


BBmodBB
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May 29, 2014, 12:18:58 AM
 #287

Cryptsy is a diseased pile of crap that should be wiped off this earth.. this exchange will follow MtGox eventually and be brought to justice.

After months and months of fighting with them to give me back my BTC and them accusing me of "intentionally abusing" their system, they liquidated my account and took all my remaining coins which I was forced to leave there and I had hoped would be worth something again one day so I could at least get *some* of my investment back.

So, in short: Double spend bug bought twice the amount of QRK I wanted. Instead of selling immediately, I read people were losing money and decided I'll contact their support so they can sort it and others won't lose coin. It frustratingly took them more than 30 days to respond during which time QRK value dropped significantly. BitJohn said in a IRC chat I should be happy because they "lent" me QRK. I wasn't, I was infuriated because my account was in negative BTC and I couldn't remove the QRK either. So, I gave up and decided to wait. Lo and behold, I logged into my account yesterday and found ALL my QRK was sold on 6 March 2014. I contacted their support asking them WTF was going on, here is their response:

Quote
Hello *******,

You bought more QRK than you had money for. You then left your account inactive , with a negative BTC balance for several months. Your account was liquidated to try to recoup some of our losses after you abused your account.  This is your ledger of your running BTC balance, you can see where you intentionally abused the system.

<lots of transactions here>

 It is also your responsibility to check your balances as you trade and to not trade more than you own. Please deposit the BTC your account is negative to bring your account back into good standing.

Thank you,

Horus
Cryptsy Security
www.Cryptsy.com


So, you can say whatever you want about what I should've done, what I could've done better etc but here are the facts:

  • I tried to be a honest trader by logging a ticket rather than selling. If I sold, I would made more profit than I should've.
  • I was worried that if I "cheated" the exchange, I'd have my account closed down for exploitation/hacking
  • I have been repeatedly accused by 3 different staff members saying I "intentionally" tried to cheat the system, even after I've exhaustively explained what happened
  • My initial BTC investment is gone because of a double spend bug in their exchange
  • The QRK I had left behind is now gone too
  • They want me to deposit an additional amount of BTC to bring my account into "good standing"

FACT: Cryptsy will not take responsibility for their bugs, they will assume you exploited their exchange (does not matter how well you explain yourself and reference to logs / evidence), they will hold whatever coin you have and sell it without authorization (they didn't even send me an email advising me they'll be doing it. I had no warning.) to recoup "their" supposed loss. This exchange operates like a criminal enterprise and all off this within the borders of the United States.

Please listen carefully: Cryptsy will be shutdown eventually. Especially once they start taking USD deposits. Make sure your funds are NOT on Cryptsy when this happens. Don't give me the opportunity to say "I told you so, now shut the fuck up."



something is going on with this place, i think they are in some shit!? jmo =\

*BTCitcoin Wales Club*-- message me for details!--///\\\TELEKINETICS///\\can manipulate objects with their mind. Telekinesis is one of the basis of many superpowers that are based on "controlling/manipulating", it may evolve to the point that a Telekinetic can control anything at a subatomic level.
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May 29, 2014, 12:42:48 AM
 #288

Its all Horus the Hobo's fault. Wink

The fortune he made begging.. phishin apparently wasn't enough.

XBITCOIN
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May 29, 2014, 03:21:44 AM
 #289

It Sucks ever having to get the fuzz involved with CC because its just one more thing for the bad press to latch onto, so it kind of pisses me off. However the - balance bs pisses me off too, soo, Exchanges better get their shit together.

This is what I am seeing from Cryptsy right now, historically, once you start seeing this, eventually it never goes back one day,..

500 - Internal Server Error

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May 29, 2014, 03:31:27 AM
 #290

It Sucks ever having to get the fuzz involved with CC because its just one more thing for the bad press to latch onto, so it kind of pisses me off. However the - balance bs pisses me off too, soo, Exchanges better get their shit together.

This is what I am seeing from Cryptsy right now, historically, once you start seeing this, eventually it never goes back one day,..

500 - Internal Server Error

I've never seen an error 500 with their site. I do agree that there are a lot of things that need dealt with (and I think they should be done BEFORE joining the USD market), but they are still one of the more popular exchanges.

https://nanogames.io/i-bctalk-n/
Message for info on how to get kickbacks on sites like Nano (above) and CryptoPlay!
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May 29, 2014, 05:46:29 PM
 #291

Its all Horus the Hobo's fault. Wink

The fortune he made begging.. phishin apparently wasn't enough.

ROTFF YES AND THEN NOW HE'S AN EMPLOYEE?? WHAT A JOKE!!!  Cheesy

*BTCitcoin Wales Club*-- message me for details!--///\\\TELEKINETICS///\\can manipulate objects with their mind. Telekinesis is one of the basis of many superpowers that are based on "controlling/manipulating", it may evolve to the point that a Telekinetic can control anything at a subatomic level.
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May 29, 2014, 08:26:49 PM
 #292



Oh it's this stupid thread again!


~BCX~

yes blood in the water again, something very bad happening over at cryptsy! imho  Cry

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May 29, 2014, 08:31:09 PM
 #293

The owner/operator of Cryptsy is well known as he has repeatedly made it clear he is Paul Vernon from Del Ray Beach,Florida. Cryptsy is registered as a business with the State Florida. As such it makes it very easy to file complaints with the State of Florida over the issues we are having. Cryptsy is in the mid process of filing all the needed applications to enter into a USD market. The last thing they need are multiple complaints about financial mismanagement and issues right now as it would get them nixed pretty quickly. Florida is very aggressive on consumer issues like this and it doesn't matter if you reside outside the USA.

Paul Vernon himself, also know as BigVern needs to come in here and explain what is going on.  Not one of his "lackys" like BitJohn or pr9me but Paul Vernon himself.  I have a combined total of coins in limbo of about 63BTC. Enough is enough. Let us know what is going on or deal with the consequences.

What say you Paul Vernon?


UPDATE:

I took a day off on Thursday December 12th and drove up to Tallahassee to the Florida AG's Office. After about an hour lecture and introduction to Crypto for two Investigators and Assistant AG, I then showed them several exchanges and Cryptsy, who was operating inside the State of Florida. Excited wasn't the word, you would have thought it was Christmas in addition to their jaw's dropping when they saw the volume and the amount of unregulated $$$ flowing through Mr. Vernon's site. They were extremely concerned at the potential fraud that was happening and the theory of a possible multimillion dollar ponzi scheme just seemed to materialize out of thin air. While she said they couldn't determine "if anything was indeed amiss, they were certainly going to be talking to Mr. Vernon as well as contacting their Federal counterparts"


i'm still on the fence here, they will be hearing from me very soon if Paul don't get his act together..i gotta real bad feeling cryptsy is in some $$$ trouble..jmo =\

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May 29, 2014, 08:50:05 PM
 #294

although the crypts support staff TRY'S to fix problems and r nice ppl the underlying problem is that none of the other trading sites need support staff because their exchanges actually work properly. I hate crypts more than any other thing related to BTC right now and would advise anyone to stay far away unless u like frustration and an email box full of retarded cryptsy support tickets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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May 29, 2014, 09:47:07 PM
 #295

although the crypts support staff TRY'S to fix problems and r nice ppl the underlying problem is that none of the other trading sites need support staff because their exchanges actually work properly. I hate crypts more than any other thing related to BTC right now and would advise anyone to stay far away unless u like frustration and an email box full of retarded cryptsy support tickets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THERE IS NO SUPPORT!!! ONLY SUPPORT "BOTS"  Undecided

*BTCitcoin Wales Club*-- message me for details!--///\\\TELEKINETICS///\\can manipulate objects with their mind. Telekinesis is one of the basis of many superpowers that are based on "controlling/manipulating", it may evolve to the point that a Telekinetic can control anything at a subatomic level.
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May 29, 2014, 09:51:30 PM
 #296

Its all Horus the Hobo's fault. Wink

The fortune he made begging.. phishin apparently wasn't enough.

ROTFF YES AND THEN NOW HE'S AN EMPLOYEE?? WHAT A JOKE!!!  Cheesy

He always was "on staff". How else could he get away with such disresptectful behaviour. eg. begging, phishing, rudeness ect.




Then theres the still yet to be fully explained charity drive when he revealed his true ties to Cryptsy. Here you can see him lying about being a recent add on.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310335.0

Yes this is small time, but its only the perverbial tip of the ice berg.

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May 29, 2014, 10:09:40 PM
 #297

Its all Horus the Hobo's fault. Wink

The fortune he made begging.. phishin apparently wasn't enough.

ROTFF YES AND THEN NOW HE'S AN EMPLOYEE?? WHAT A JOKE!!!  Cheesy

He always was "on staff". How else could he get away with such disresptectful behaviour. eg. begging, phishing, rudeness ect.




Then theres the still yet to be fully explained charity drive when he revealed his true ties to Cryptsy. Here you can see him lying about being a recent add on.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310335.0

Yes this is small time, but its only the perverbial tip of the ice berg.


naw i see it took me a minute to figure that out...i don't get that bad of vibes from him but in general this exchange is a fvcking joke if you cannot even get someone to answer a support ticket! =\

*BTCitcoin Wales Club*-- message me for details!--///\\\TELEKINETICS///\\can manipulate objects with their mind. Telekinesis is one of the basis of many superpowers that are based on "controlling/manipulating", it may evolve to the point that a Telekinetic can control anything at a subatomic level.
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May 30, 2014, 01:32:03 PM
 #298

Now they are holding deposits pending while the market crashes. I could have sold 5 hours ago.
So it's essentially confirmed they are using people's money to play the market.

They got caught in the down swing and now have frozen withdrawals.

So I lost a small fortune because of this.

There was a guy who did this before once. He is the guy that ran payment processing for adult sites all over the world.
He would lag on payouts for months while he used the money to play the markets. Christopher Mallick was the name. Paycom.

Exact same thing is going on here. I really liked the site and helped them earn some nice trade fees.
I supported them everywhere.
I guess this is the reward.

Stuff like this will kill this whole industry.

Actually Yoyo, Christopher Mallick would have been an awful gambler and he probably knew this himself. Instead he was pretty self centered with a huge ego. He funneled our money through the 'wallet' feature to his Oxymoron Entertainment company bank account where he was collecting money from unsuspecting investors to fund his Middle Men movie which funnily enough was an awful attempt at a self autobiography. Naturally it bombed at the box office, all his other subsequent 'films' despite having decent characters (only thing going for them) went straight to dvd, itunes, etc. http://www.christophermallick.net has all you need to know!

Peace  Smiley

Alex
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May 30, 2014, 06:38:40 PM
 #299

Now they are holding deposits pending while the market crashes. I could have sold 5 hours ago.
So it's essentially confirmed they are using people's money to play the market.

They got caught in the down swing and now have frozen withdrawals.

So I lost a small fortune because of this.

There was a guy who did this before once. He is the guy that ran payment processing for adult sites all over the world.
He would lag on payouts for months while he used the money to play the markets. Christopher Mallick was the name. Paycom.

Exact same thing is going on here. I really liked the site and helped them earn some nice trade fees.
I supported them everywhere.
I guess this is the reward.

Stuff like this will kill this whole industry.

Actually Yoyo, Christopher Mallick would have been an awful gambler and he probably knew this himself. Instead he was pretty self centered with a huge ego. He funneled our money through the 'wallet' feature to his Oxymoron Entertainment company bank account where he was collecting money from unsuspecting investors to fund his Middle Men movie which funnily enough was an awful attempt at a self autobiography. Naturally it bombed at the box office, all his other subsequent 'films' despite having decent characters (only thing going for them) went straight to dvd, itunes, etc. http://www.christophermallick.net has all you need to know!

Peace  Smiley

Alex


mullick? lol =0

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May 30, 2014, 08:25:35 PM
 #300

Now they are holding deposits pending while the market crashes. I could have sold 5 hours ago.
So it's essentially confirmed they are using people's money to play the market.

They got caught in the down swing and now have frozen withdrawals.

So I lost a small fortune because of this.

There was a guy who did this before once. He is the guy that ran payment processing for adult sites all over the world.
He would lag on payouts for months while he used the money to play the markets. Christopher Mallick was the name. Paycom.

Exact same thing is going on here. I really liked the site and helped them earn some nice trade fees.
I supported them everywhere.
I guess this is the reward.

Stuff like this will kill this whole industry.

Actually Yoyo, Christopher Mallick would have been an awful gambler and he probably knew this himself. Instead he was pretty self centered with a huge ego. He funneled our money through the 'wallet' feature to his Oxymoron Entertainment company bank account where he was collecting money from unsuspecting investors to fund his Middle Men movie which funnily enough was an awful attempt at a self autobiography. Naturally it bombed at the box office, all his other subsequent 'films' despite having decent characters (only thing going for them) went straight to dvd, itunes, etc. http://www.christophermallick.net has all you need to know!

Peace  Smiley

Alex


mullick? lol =0

Not me Tongue Im not that hard to find if anyone looks....

We also do not hold deposits

When we disable deposits/withdrawals its either because of an issue with our wallet or the blockchain. If its with the blockchain people are usually sell off. Thats just what happens
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