Bitcoin Vs. Paypal - and PayPal is getting sued.

[TerraHasher]

Ok, sorry guys, i didnt expect this much of a response and as much as i want to read each and every one of your posts, my current day to days are keeping me pretty tied down.

Of the few posts i browsed through i did some some very wrong information, some very far out there accusations, and some people who either got lost in the run on paragraph glitch, or didnt read the whole post so i am going to make a few things clear.

1: We have had a paypal business account for a decade now, linked to our business bank accounts, and the account is registered with our EIN not my social security number

2: California is a two party consent law state. meaning both parties must agree to having a phone call recorded. My lawyers did not think that paypal gave that consent when they first found out i recorded the calls. It was only when they heard the recording giving that consent to EVERYONE in which it became legal and admissible in court.

3: Paypal on NUMEROUS occasions admitted that the ONLY reason they were freezing the account was because i sold bitcoin hardware.

4: We have had not a single chargback or issue this entire calender year ( 2013 ) which warranted freezing the assets

5: The reason paypal WILL lose their right to process credit cards if i win is because a major part of the lawsuit is based on cardholder agreements. By processing credit cards paypal has agreed to adhere to the rules, regulations, and laws pertaining to the issuing company of the card. In which they are violating by seizing cardholder funds without warrant or court order. This has nothing to do with the fact that they are my funds once transferred to a bank. By law, until a transaction takes place in which a buyer receives goods and a seller receives funds, the funds belong to the buyer or card holder. Seizing those funds as a payment processor without warrant or order is a crime. Had all the merchandise been shipped to customers this would have been a different story. This part of what is going on has nothing to do with myself directly, this is a result of the FTC and SEC as paypal holds those monies in a money market account.

6: paypal does not make a profit. yes they charge you fees, but they have yet to develop a business model which has profit. With the amount of charg backs and delinquent negative accounts held on paypal, they have operated in the red since inception. They are barley 10 years old, maybe a little more, still a new company by every aspect, and they are still floating on borrowed capital ( ebay capital )

7: Nothing in paypals agreement states you cannot sell bitcoin mining hardware. For that matter it dosnt specifically say you cannot sell bitcoin either, but with legal interpretation it can be considered a currency no matter if the Fed admits it or not. A bitcoin miner is just a highly specialized computer. Trust me, my lawyers are not chumps, nor idiots. The only reason i hired them in the first place is because they have won 90% of their cases against major corporations like Lockheed Martin, Disney, Wal-Mart, Etc. as a matter of fact even their associates have to have a degree from Harvard ( they dont legally say that, it just seems to be the case as everyone there came from Harvard )

I am sure there was a lot more that i missed, but i haven't much time tonight.

To all of you, (hundreds of messages) who have messaged me. I feel your pain, i am there right now as you can see. Rather than reply to each of you one at a time which would take weeks. I will be starting a thread to help all of you out as a group. I am just one man who happened to get luck with a few well written letters from some very important people that convinced a judge to let me take them to court. Your chance of replicating that are slim to none. I am not here to give you false hopes, those are just the facts. From experience i can tell you that as a GROUP, collectively with thousands of pages of documented communications and hundreds of complaints filed with regulatory bodies simultaneously you would all again as a GROUP increase your chances of success.

Trust me, thousands of people have tried to get paypal in a court room. just google it. you can count the number of people who pulled it off on one hand.

I will post a link to my Hold paypal accountable thread once i have it written. It will take me a few days so please hang tight. Hopefully i dont suffer from paragraph tofu on that post as well.

Thank you all for your support. Our letter of intent was mailed today, and now we just wait. i will keep you all as in the loop as time permits. For those of you who want to get in on a group action against paypal please see the original post. SAVE, DOCUMENT, PRINT, AND RECORD EVERYTHING (check your local law before you record, some states do not allow it no matter what without court order)

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[jballs]

This thread makes me happy.

I had someone force a chargeback on me a couple months ago, for services I rendered (Skype lessons) over 90 days after he paid me and a month after I finished training him. No complaints, no notice, no reason given.

Aside from that I have had no real problems with PayPal but the fees are high for what they do and of course I have heard the horror stories such as this one.

This is why bitcoin is going to work, is working. Absent all speculation it is just a better way of doing business and I am stoked to have an alternative finally.

Good luck in court, if it gets that far.

[markm]

Might illegally seizing competitor's customers' funds on the basis that those customers are themselves marketing equipment that could be construed as enabling even more competition be interpretable as anti-competion practices, putting it somewhere in the anti-racketeering / anti-monopolies sectors?

-MarkM-

[TerraHasher]

Docket number please, I'd like to follow this on PACER.

Sure thing man, for now, we have only gotten an approval to be heard. The actual lawsuit does not start until they do not reply to the letter of intent to sue, as per the judges orders. i guess even though paypal is not, i am supposed to be fair by giving them a notice to fix the issue or end up in a court room. As soon as the actual lawsuit fires up and hits the docket i will absolutely share it for you all to keep up on. it will make things a ton easier than me trying to keep updating the forum here every night.

Or were you asking for the docket number for our original request to be able to sue? If you were, the original filings were dismissed and thrown out without us even being heard. We only got the go ahead after that was already dismissed. I can get you the docket number for it i am sure, but as i stated in the original post, it will probably just say "dismissed" on it. We didn't file an appeal, the courts called us back which is totally out of the norm i am sure.

[Kungfucheez]

Ok, sorry guys, i didnt expect this much of a response and as much as i want to read each and every one of your posts, my current day to days are keeping me pretty tied down.

Of the few posts i browsed through i did some some very wrong information, some very far out there accusations, and some people who either got lost in the run on paragraph glitch, or didnt read the whole post so i am going to make a few things clear.

1: We have had a paypal business account for a decade now, linked to our business bank accounts, and the account is registered with our EIN not my social security number

2: California is a two party consent law state. meaning both parties must agree to having a phone call recorded. My lawyers did not think that paypal gave that consent when they first found out i recorded the calls. It was only when they heard the recording giving that consent to EVERYONE in which it became legal and admissible in court.

3: Paypal on NUMEROUS occasions admitted that the ONLY reason they were freezing the account was because i sold bitcoin hardware.

4: We have had not a single chargback or issue this entire calender year ( 2013 ) which warranted freezing the assets

5: The reason paypal WILL lose their right to process credit cards if i win is because a major part of the lawsuit is based on cardholder agreements. By processing credit cards paypal has agreed to adhere to the rules, regulations, and laws pertaining to the issuing company of the card. In which they are violating by seizing cardholder funds without warrant or court order. This has nothing to do with the fact that they are my funds once transferred to a bank. By law, until a transaction takes place in which a buyer receives goods and a seller receives funds, the funds belong to the buyer or card holder. Seizing those funds as a payment processor without warrant or order is a crime. Had all the merchandise been shipped to customers this would have been a different story. This part of what is going on has nothing to do with myself directly, this is a result of the FTC and SEC as paypal holds those monies in a money market account.

6: paypal does not make a profit. yes they charge you fees, but they have yet to develop a business model which has profit. With the amount of charg backs and delinquent negative accounts held on paypal, they have operated in the red since inception. They are barley 10 years old, maybe a little more, still a new company by every aspect, and they are still floating on borrowed capital ( ebay capital )

7: Nothing in paypals agreement states you cannot sell bitcoin mining hardware. For that matter it dosnt specifically say you cannot sell bitcoin either, but with legal interpretation it can be considered a currency no matter if the Fed admits it or not. A bitcoin miner is just a highly specialized computer. Trust me, my lawyers are not chumps, nor idiots. The only reason i hired them in the first place is because they have won 90% of their cases against major corporations like Lockheed Martin, Disney, Wal-Mart, Etc. as a matter of fact even their associates have to have a degree from Harvard ( they dont legally say that, it just seems to be the case as everyone there came from Harvard )

I am sure there was a lot more that i missed, but i haven't much time tonight.

To all of you, (hundreds of messages) who have messaged me. I feel your pain, i am there right now as you can see. Rather than reply to each of you one at a time which would take weeks. I will be starting a thread to help all of you out as a group. I am just one man who happened to get luck with a few well written letters from some very important people that convinced a judge to let me take them to court. Your chance of replicating that are slim to none. I am not here to give you false hopes, those are just the facts. From experience i can tell you that as a GROUP, collectively with thousands of pages of documented communications and hundreds of complaints filed with regulatory bodies simultaneously you would all again as a GROUP increase your chances of success.

Trust me, thousands of people have tried to get paypal in a court room. just google it. you can count the number of people who pulled it off on one hand.

I will post a link to my Hold paypal accountable thread once i have it written. It will take me a few days so please hang tight. Hopefully i dont suffer from paragraph tofu on that post as well.

Thank you all for your support. Our letter of intent was mailed today, and now we just wait. i will keep you all as in the loop as time permits. For those of you who want to get in on a group action against paypal please see the original post. SAVE, DOCUMENT, PRINT, AND RECORD EVERYTHING (check your local law before you record, some states do not allow it no matter what without court order)

You're not going to win

[Delmonger]

Paypal has given me a lot of grief when it comes to bitcoin related sales.  They made false claims about my account, held my funds for no valid reason, and when I submitted the documentation and waited (3 months later) still they apparently failed to review my documents.

I have evidence that Paypal has ignored my submissions.

After being on hold for about an hour and discussing the situation and trying to resolve the issue, they got upset and "bitchcoins" came up, I said "I'm sorry?" and then the guy goes off on another subject.

[bryant.coleman]

Actually the owners sold it to someone. But the new owner hasn't shown any enthusiasm to resume the operations. 

Maybe ebay bought it and killed it.

Don't know whether eBay was behind it or not... but things are looking gloomy at the moment.

[erono]

bookmarked

TerraHasher please update us soon.

[LightRider]

The fact that they actually said out loud that the reason they're harassing you is because bitcoin is a competitor is mind blowing. They'll hang themselves in court for sure.

[medUSA]

I sure hope you win this case against paypal, never liked them. Gave my lots of problems years ago and haven't used them since. but I believe they would settle your case outside the court. They wouldn't allow a precedent case against them, so others may follow. Actually, there is a huge market for paypal to be an escrow for bitcoin payments. They should think about starting a "bitpal".

[davedx]

I didn't read it all (sorry), but I'm interested:

Is there a BTC address for the legal fund? I and am sure many other BTC supports would be interested in donating.

[Bitbuy]

will be interesting to see this play out...
PS: next time, maybe pay attention to the formatting of your post, so that it doesn't take away focus of your real message, which is interesting)

[s1lverbox]

I didn't read it all (sorry), but I'm interested:

Is there a BTC address for the legal fund? I and am sure many other BTC supports would be interested in donating.

really?

[aminorex]

Please post an address for donations.

[TerraHasher]

Please post an address for donations.

Hey guys, thanks for the support, I wasnt really looking for donations. The minute someone starts seeking money for something a conversation usually turns from being productive into a whole other conversations about "scam, rippoff, blah blah, troll some more etc." Im sure you get the idea. I will post an address for now for people who want to send donations for whatever, but i do have to re-state, as of now, the legal team is not charging me anything so donations would be more on principal than anything. Also if posting a donation address starts to take this thread off topic and in another direction, please understand that i will take down the address. I do not want this to turn into one of "those" threads.

Again, thank you all for your support, we are patiently awaiting confirmation from the post office that the letter has been delivered and signed for. I will be sure and update you all once that happens as that is when the 2 weeks to take action clock begins.

(also on a side note, i had one of our buyers get scared and back out on a Round 1 batch 2 ( march delivery) BA x-3 machine because of paypal freezing their funds as well for sending us payment through paypal. If anyone is interested i can contact BA and see if they will allow an address transfer or something if you want to buy it. Just message me)

Donation address: 1A8anGihV3pvHeuhqzGsAjt2S71WY2qea4

[whtchocla7e]

Paypal is a payment processor. They're most likely already working on something for Bitcoin. Why are they seen as competitors?

Question for OP: why do you not sell equipment for Bitcoins?

[coiner92]

Got same problems. They shutdown my listings a few times. But I was selling the actual crypto currency. I don't find it fair that ebay allows other forms of currencies and other digital items but when it comes to cryptos it's under the restricted area. Selling currencies is allowed. Selling digital items is allowed. But selling digital currency is not allowed? I think they just hate cryptos. But I never sell btc or anything over $15 anymore. I already made my money. And I put it one item at a time. Just to be safe.

[-Redacted-]

Add me to the suit.  Paypal froze my account with $26,000 from selling on hand day-1 KNC Jupiters in it because someone reported that I was selling bitcoin.  No appeal.  Frozen solid.  I was told there were chargebacks, but not allowed into my account to see what those chargebacks were.  Money will be frozen for another 4 months.  (After 6 months they will decide how much of my money they will allow me to have back.)

Please PM me for contact info - I absolutely want to be a participant in this lawsuit.  

[skivrmt]

Add me to the suit.  Paypal froze my account with $26,000 from selling on hand day-1 KNC Jupiters in it because someone reported that I was selling bitcoin.  No appeal.  Frozen solid.  I was told there were chargebacks, but not allowed into my account to see what those chargebacks were.  Money will be frozen for another 4 months.  (After 6 months they will decide how much of my money they will allow me to haveback.)

Please PM me for contact info - I absolutely want to be a participant in this lawsuit.  

This is the part that gets me.  It's not the actual freezing of accounts.  They have every right to do that if they think something is suspect (not saying you did anything suspect of course but people do!).  But there should be a law for how LONG they can freeze your cash until the issue gets resolved.  Paypal is famous for freezing, then no word for months. 

If they freeze your account, they should have a dedicated 800# to call, with a case number to resolve any issues quickly.  This I'm sure has taken many legitimate businesses out there out of business when suddenly their cash flow became frozen.

[-Redacted-]

I was told that my account was frozen for six months because my business with them was considered "too risky".  No other reason, and no appeal  possible.   What gives them the right to confiscate my account - short of being law enforcement and obtaining a warrant for something like violation of AMLs or the IRS doing it for non-payment of taxes - why would they have ANY right to confiscate or hold my property?