Bitcoin Vs. Paypal - and PayPal is getting sued.

[TerraHasher]

Thread abandoned, Thank you to all of your support. but my time with bitcointalk has unfortunately come to an end.

I leave you all with a very funny youtube video for your comic relief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alc0gG0u48M

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[BeepBeep2]

Giant run-on paragraph, TL;DR, attention-deficit is such a gyft

[mpattison]

Came in with genuine interest in what was about to be discussed.

Leaving with no additional information.  Before you go ahead and sue someone, I suggest you learn how to write adequate English paragraphs.  Paperwork is crucial in legalwork.

 

[HairyMaclairy]

TL;DR summary:  

PayPal has been putting holds on my accounts and preventing me from accessing my own funds because I am selling miners.  I think Paypal is doing this because they regard bitcoin as competition.

I am suing Paypal.

[applelover]

yeah big paragraph but pretty interesting. 

[jonanon]

I must say I didn't quite get to the end but paypal are an awful company to deal with. Too bad there are no alternatives that can compete 

[quone17]

As a lawyer let me suggest (this is not legal advice) to be careful what you write on here as it might come up in the lawsuit. Good luck!

[melodiem]

Before you go ahead and sue someone, I suggest you learn how to write adequate English paragraphs.  Paperwork is crucial in legalwork.

Isnt that why legal teams are paid to write the story for people mpattison?

TerraHasher, thank you for biting back!! Go you, and good luck

[keithers]

Came in with genuine interest in what was about to be discussed.

Leaving with no additional information.  Before you go ahead and sue someone, I suggest you learn how to write adequate English paragraphs.  Paperwork is crucial in legalwork.

 

+1, I just sat down at my computer and want to read this, but that whopper of a paragraph is intimidating.  Before I get to it...good luck with the lawsuit...nice to see that you are really taking a stand

[TerraHasher]

As a lawyer let me suggest (this is not legal advice) to be careful what you write on here as it might come up in the lawsuit. Good luck!

Good advice man, but pretty much everything stated here will be used in court already and if a judge wants to punish me for encouraging other people to stand up for themselves. i dont think i would want to win in his courtroom anyways. To me its not about the money, i am more than bitcoin wealthy, enough so i quit my day job and just sit all day selling on ebay and stuff and i am president of our local bitcoin group which is a full time job in itself with now over 280 members.

For me it is about the principal of the matter, this sort of white collar theft cannot be allowed to go uncontested. I put in the time and hours to make some noise and make people aware they do have options, and maybe other people will stand up for themselves too.


For the rest of you, my deepest apologies about the run on paragraph. I think something went wrong when i hit the preview button because it had proper (or close to it) paragraphs per thought process. i am about to head to bed, but i will try and get at it in the morning and make it more readable. so sorry guys. another one of those moments where technology gets the better of me. kind of like an iPhone, you try to take a picture, and instead it orders you a pizza.

[TerraHasher]

Before you go ahead and sue someone, I suggest you learn how to write adequate English paragraphs.  Paperwork is crucial in legalwork.

Isnt that why legal teams are paid to write the story for people mpattison?

TerraHasher, thank you for biting back!! Go you, and good luck

Amen to that by the way, i gave my lawyers 200 BTC back August for retainer, come October one of them (jokingly) proposed to me. Why do my own dirty work when people will do it for bitcoin. all i had to do was follow their instructions.

[solex]

Keep up the good fight TerraHasher, and very clever to hoist them on their own call recording policy!

Hope you crush them!

[skivrmt]

TL;DR summary:  

PayPal has been putting holds on my accounts and preventing me from accessing my own funds because I am selling miners.  I think Paypal is doing this because they regard bitcoin as competition.

I am suing Paypal.

I actually read the whole thing. But yes, paragraphs would have helped. . Cliff notes version was excellent. This is going to be a HUGE uphill battle. If if you win, this will continue to go uphill through the appellate courts for years. Unless of course they or you decide to settle. I'm happy someone is finally going to take them on.

I wish you the best of luck.

[erik777]

This will be very interesting to watch.  Please keep us updated, TerraHasher!   

Here's a nicely paragraphed summary  with perspective.   

[Peter R]

Nice work TerraHasher and best of luck!  Please keep us posted. 

[skivrmt]

This will be very interesting to watch.  Please keep us updated, TerraHasher!   

Here's a nicely paragraphed summary  with perspective.   

Great summary article, with punctuation, paragraphs, and even upper case letters. . I terra will continue to update via this forum as much as his attorney will let him. But as one poster posted, be careful what you post. You dont want to jeopardize the lawsuit at all because you know their "team" is digging up anything they can on you, wife, family, dog, kids, etc.

[2tights]

Very interesting story

[Kazimir]

Cool.

Bitcoin > Paypal, and I hope you will sue the shit out of them.

[traderCJ]

Incredible.  Well done, Terra.

[chalkyuk]

feck if im going to try read that long mess....get some paragraphs in it

[armodilloben]

I come to the point that i really hate PayPal (eBay customers using eBay and PayPal Mechanics to hold back payments, forcing me to give discounts) and I started to love to use Bitcoin for payment. Does not matter if its display advertising, food or other  transactions done with bitcoin - its fun using it and efficient.

[Mowcore]

Good luck Terrahash, hope something good comes from this!

All those mocking his big paragraph? go fucking get your eyes checked, or copy it into notepad and make your own paragraphs you lazy shits lol.

This guy has gone through some shit, I could feel his vibe!

[willsteel]

As much as i would love it that PayPal looses the right to accept credit cards... I dont think this is going to happen.

But I would like to know how come that this is point of discussion? Someone else selling CreditCard equipment via PayPal?

[waxaddict]

Fuck Paypal.

As a little guy just using eBay for purchases and selling random items, apart from the extortionate fees involved, Paypal are a joke.

A week or two ago I bid on a second hand smartphone. Within the hour of sending payment via Paypal the seller messaged me, apologised that the phone had a fault he'd recently found, and he refunded me instantly.

Checked Paypal, refund received but on 'hold'. It took 10 days to be released. Apparently it's standard procedure for refunds. How can they operate like this and still be allowed?

[RenegadeMind]

I wish you all the luck in the world and hope you win! I would laugh myself into unconsciousness to see PayPal lose their ability to take credit cards. That would be truly priceless! I take credit cards through PayPal, so it would have an effect on me, but seeing PayPal go down in flames would be just so worth it!

[s1lverbox]

as I still think OP is Muppet by writing lasts posts in other threads, I will watch this closely. because IF you succed, u my friend have a large beer from me. PayPal always sucks, day and night. problem with sellers are this: they repeating like addicts...PAYPAL IS SAFEST WAY...bla bla bla.
I hope there will be enough room to finish with monopolistyc company's like PayPal and other. succes with this case can be massive step against other shady payments processors.


they will think twice before blocking from using your own money.
PAYPALSUCKS.COM

[bigb159]

Best of luck, Terrahasher. Never been a fan of Paypal.

[lmazzola]

THank you I hate paypal! this is awesome.

[Kungfucheez]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

[BawsyBoss]

I really want this to turn towards your favor.

[Rassah]

Sooooo conflicted. On the one hand, I want PayPal to pay for their BS, but on the other, I don't want them to improve, so that Bitcoin continues to be a much better option 

[Misesian]

Sooooo conflicted. On the one hand, I want PayPal to pay for their BS, but on the other, I don't want them to improve, so that Bitcoin continues to be a much better option 

Why would PayPal improve if he wins though?

[bitaggedon]

Paypal is full of BS, those clowns almost ruined our business. They automatically process chargebacks without investigation, customers order an item we deliver, customer claims item not received even with full tracking info and paypal just charge us without even looking at the tracking info. I hope they fall hard.
We have a new site just for bitcoins and it couldn't have been better.

[TerraHasher]

Does anyone know the BB code for making a paragraph? I have tried 3 times now to fix the post but when i save it it still comes out the same and the HTML p code wont work as i expected. Sorry again for the run on. Me and SMF are not getting along this morning.

[g35fan]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

[2tights]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

[e4xit]

Does anyone know the BB code for making a paragraph? I have tried 3 times now to fix the post but when i save it it still comes out the same and the HTML p code wont work as i expected. Sorry again for the run on. Me and SMF are not getting along this morning.

i think it might be too long for paragraphs? Could be wrong though, just remember that I tried to Copy/past a long bit of code once and it didn't work...

[Kungfucheez]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

[runam0k]

No, there are plenty of stories about Paypal freezing accounts or taking down auctions when it comes to Bitcoin.

Good work OP, good luck with the claim!

[Kungfucheez]

No, there are plenty of stories about Paypal freezing accounts or taking down auctions when it comes to Bitcoin.

Good work OP, good luck with the claim!

This describes why very well.

PayPal transactions are reversible. VERY reversible - like 60 days after the transaction, I think. That is one of the big advantages of the system, from a consumer standpoint.

BitCoin, on the other hand, is probably the least reversible currency available (and is touted as one of the big advantages of the system). It's not even reversible with a court order, like eGold, which is disallowed on PayPal.

If a PayPal balance was easily transferable to other currencies, especially in a non-reversible way, it would make PayPal much more attractive to crooks, because after scamming people, they would just immediately transfer the money out of PayPal (to eGold or BitCoin), way before PayPal could react and reverse the transaction. If left uncontrolled, this would eventually destroy the biggest advantage of PayPal, which is perceived consumer safety.

As Conor Lynch points out, PayPal does have other safeguards in place against money laundering schemes, such as a rolling 60-day hold on all transactions,  percentage-based holds reserved for handling elevated fraud rates, and other measures. But these measures are probably NOT fun and games for PayPal to implement, since they cost both a lot of manual labour, and annoys merchants. A lot of honest merchants get caught in the crossfire of these measures, which then (with righteous fury) describe their experiences on the Internet. As such, it makes sense to eliminate anything that makes the PayPal system attractive for fraudsters in the first place, and currency exchanges (again, this is not a ban against BitCoin in particular, which is most definitely a currency exchange) was probably high on that list. This might also not be PayPal's policy alone - VISA and MasterCard might not be super-happy about currency exchanges either.

The above problem does not exist with virtual goods (such as Facebook credits) because you cannot exchange it for another currency, such as dollars or euros, and is therefore not suitable for the money laundering scheme described above.

[Meuh6879]

1) have you a professionnal account at paypal (need when you "echange" more than xxxx USD per month).
2) have you a VAT number ?
3) have you a real account bank linked (and certified) to the paypal account ?

if you don't have this ... well ... the restrictions (froozen funds) on paypal is the legitimates rules for "personal account".

[2tights]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

It makes sense because Paypal's business is based on processing transactions. Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit. Do you see the connection?

[Bobsurplus]

First of all, PAYPAL will never lose its CC processing, NEVER EVER EVER!

Second, I'm no lawyer but it seems to me that yes, they have shity customer service and shitty policies  but you still got your money in a timely manner.

I fucking hate paypal but I dont see any case here.

[msc]

I fucking hate paypal but I dont see any case here.

Antitrust?  They'll let you sell Dell computers, but not BFL computers.

Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit.

Yes, but nothing Paypal does is going to have a negative impact on Bitcoin adoption.  They have two choices: entice customers to do business with them, or drive them away. 

[2tights]

I fucking hate paypal but I dont see any case here.

Antitrust?  They'll let you sell Dell computers, but not BFL computers.

Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit.

Yes, but nothing Paypal does is going to have a negative impact on Bitcoin adoption.  They have two choices: entice customers to do business with them, or drive them away.  

I didn't think we were talking about how Paypal could sabotage Bitcoin. I thought we were talking about their unethical business dealings with the OP.  I don't think anyone believes Paypal has the influence to cause much of a stir.

[Kungfucheez]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

It makes sense because Paypal's business is based on processing transactions. Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit. Do you see the connection?

No I don't. Paypals business is based on secure, safe transactions.  

Despite what everyone here will tell you, paypal isn't doing this because of profits. They're doing it to help combat fraud, which to me sounds 100% understandable. It says right in their policy you can't sell bitcoin miners or bitcoins, yet OP did anyways which is why they froze and put holds on his accounts.

[Raghnar]

I'm not sure if I believe this story because you say your attorney was incredulous that you recorded a phone call. In most states, it is totally legal to record a call, as long as at least one party (you in this case) is aware it is being recorded.

If your attorney doesn't know that, he is a horribly attorney or else this story just isn't true.

[skivrmt]

I'm not sure if I believe this story because you say your attorney was incredulous that you recorded a phone call. In most states, it is totally legal to record a call, as long as at least one party (you in this case) is aware it is being recorded.

If your attorney doesn't know that, he is a horribly attorney or else this story just isn't true.

I am not an attorney but have some law background.  This is not the case.  It depends where he lives. 

"Twelve states require, under most circumstances, the consent of all parties to a conversation. Those jurisdictions are California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington."

[NorbyTheGeek]

Does anyone know the BB code for making a paragraph? I have tried 3 times now to fix the post but when i save it it still comes out the same and the HTML p code wont work as i expected. Sorry again for the run on. Me and SMF are not getting along this morning.

Press Enter twice to leave a blank line.

Like this.

I wish you luck with the PayPal suit.  I've always thought they had too big of a head and needed taken down a peg.

[BCB]

You can record what ever you want.  You just won't be able to use it in a court of law in some jurisdictions, thus the suggestion to record all calls and create transcripts of the calls in those states where two party consent is required.

[g35fan]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

It makes sense because Paypal's business is based on processing transactions. Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit. Do you see the connection?

I think the OP said he got the paypal rep to admit on a recorded phone call it was because of bitcoin. I just don't think a lawsuit will be won because of some low level rep saying something like this, and some of other parts of the story seem like there's some holes in it. What I really meant before was that Paypal holds large sums of money from people for a variety of reasons all the time - and they've been doing this long before bitcoin even existed. It's built into their TOS.

IMHO anything "bitcoin" related is high risk to paypal right now, the OP sold a lot of equipment and then when on the phone, talked about bitcoin. It raised even more red flags I'm sure. A lot of people got ripped off selling coins through paypal, and paypal is just protecting it's interests and it's customers by holding money for a certain amount of time to ensure lower risk/chargebacks.  Trust me I'm not pro-paypal, just experienced in the hassles of selling in a high risk industry. It's the standard which many of you know.

[elasticband]

paragraphs would be nice. If this is true, All the best seeking justice.

[Isokivi]

Brilliant, well done. The best of luck with the rest of this endeavour.

oh and a +1 on the paragraphs!

[Kungfucheez]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

It makes sense because Paypal's business is based on processing transactions. Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit. Do you see the connection?

I think the OP said he got the paypal rep to admit on a recorded phone call it was because of bitcoin. I just don't think a lawsuit will be won because of some low level rep saying something like this, and some of other parts of the story seem like there's some holes in it. What I really meant before was that Paypal holds large sums of money from people for a variety of reasons all the time - and they've been doing this long before bitcoin even existed. It's built into their TOS.

IMHO anything "bitcoin" related is high risk to paypal right now, the OP sold a lot of equipment and then when on the phone, talked about bitcoin. It raised even more red flags I'm sure. A lot of people got ripped off selling coins through paypal, and paypal is just protecting it's interests and it's customers by holding money for a certain amount of time to ensure lower risk/chargebacks.  Trust me I'm not pro-paypal, just experienced in the hassles of selling in a high risk industry. It's the standard which many of you know.

Ah ok I misunderstood you then. And you're right. I think OP raised too many red flags with Paypal and they had no choice, and I believe Paypal and eBay took a strong stance against bitcoins because too many people were getting scammed and defrauded over a very short period of time. So they took a stand and prohibited the sale of mining equipment and such to help protect the consumers.


And as far as holding large sums of money. As I understand it, the reason is to ensure that their service is not being used for criminal activity, such as scamming consumers or money-laundering and whatever. It may seem silly and annoying to sellers but my guess is there is a good reason as to why they have this policy. So you are right g35fan

 

[Valle]

Thanks for the story!

But how accepting credit cards by paypal have relation to freezing account because of no good reasons?

[Dafar]

Good luck OP

That is just fucked up how the manager said "you are selling bitcoin, and they are our direct competition so we don't condone this"... wow, fuck em.

[Aseras]

Go for it, just expect them to close your account give you a pittance and a NDA and forbid you from ever doing business with them again.

/sued paypal many years ago and won.

[poblico]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

It makes sense because Paypal's business is based on processing transactions. Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit. Do you see the connection?

No I don't. Paypals business is based on secure, safe transactions.  

Despite what everyone here will tell you, paypal isn't doing this because of profits. They're doing it to help combat fraud, which to me sounds 100% understandable. It says right in their policy you can't sell bitcoin miners or bitcoins, yet OP did anyways which is why they froze and put holds on his accounts.

Combat fraud?
I guess you missed the "HIT GOLD" section, and besides he is selling computers (miners) not bitcoins.

[2tights]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

It makes sense because Paypal's business is based on processing transactions. Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit. Do you see the connection?

No I don't. Paypals business is based on secure, safe transactions.  

Despite what everyone here will tell you, paypal isn't doing this because of profits. They're doing it to help combat fraud, which to me sounds 100% understandable. It says right in their policy you can't sell bitcoin miners or bitcoins, yet OP did anyways which is why they froze and put holds on his accounts.

Combat fraud?
I guess you missed the "HIT GOLD" section, and besides he is selling computers (miners) not bitcoins.

Is it true that their terms of service forbids selling Bitcoin mining hardware?

Even if it were true, ASIC for sha256 don't have to be used for Bitcoin..

[Kenshin]

Before i go into too much detail, You read the title right. after 2 weeks, petitioning the SEC, FTC, IC3, NW3C, DOJ, and a hand full of state senators and other congress people for support.

I finally got a judge to allow me to file a lawsuit against PayPal, and after complying with the judges request that we send a letter of intent to sue them this week and giving them 2 weeks to reply or resolve the issues. We will be allowed to file a 4 MILLION dollar lawsuit against paypal, and the better news, although we cannot go class action, you still may be able to get in on the action too.

Now a little bit of the back story:

My wife and i both have been long time paypal users, in fact we have done close to 1 million dollars in sales through paypal in the past year alone. I cannot even begin to calculate how much in total over the 7-8 years we have used paypal. We have sold on ebay, sold on craigslist, sold on pretty much everywhere, and sold pretty much anything electronic for years. Never had a problem at all, and thats where bitcoin come in.

I started mining bitcoin a LONG time ago, near the beginning, and have rolled many a coin. In October when Bitcoin was at an all time high, i start doing some numbers, and seeing all these companies selling hardware for bitcoin, figured, well what the hell. i got a ton of it, and if i never use it its really worth nothing at all, so i order hundreds of USB miners, hundreds of blades, hundreds of anything i could confirm legit and take to ebay to join the club of "your and idiot and your going to pay me $695 for a V2 blade" sellers. its almost criminal how many i sold. I sold USB miners, the ever famous 200 GH/s avalon clone miners from china, you name it, i sold it if it was hardware. Never a complaint that resulted in a charge back, in fact the few complaints i got from buyers were pretty legit and dead hardware related, not only did they get their money back, but got a new miner as well. its good for business, and good for bitcoin.

In early december, now selling mainly only bitcoin hardware, out of nowhere i get a limitation on my paypal account. they want documents uploaded, photo ID, proof of address, invoices, what have you. most of it all stuff i had submitted already in the past. at the time they had held hostage, $33,600 3 days of going the rounds with paypal and the limit is raised.

My wife and i promptly transfer the funds out of the bank. Having a bad gut feeling, i contacted my legal team since i have had them on retainer for years and never used them much, and they tell me to just start keeping a record of everything, every phone call, every e-mail, the name of everyone i spoke with, every voicemail paypal left, pretty much everything. so i did, good thing too, the day after, surprise, they put a limit on our account again. right after 8 auctions closed and we had $71,000 and change in the account. same crap, we need ID, blah blah, so i call them, documenting everything, telling them that we already did this just a few days prior.

They get rude, start stumbling around when i keep drilling them as to why again when we already did, the supervisor puts me on hold for about 20 minutes, then comes back on the line and says " There has been a recent increase in activity from your account blah blah we need to wait for delivery conformation" now mind you, our account activity has greatly decreased as we have focused strictly on ebay, and only on bitcoin items. None the less, i document everything, 2 days later delivery confirmation is sent from the USPS tracking numbers.

The funds are released from Ebay, but still limits on the paypal account. So i grab the pen and paper to start taking notes, and call paypal. after going from customer service rep, to supervisor, to specialist, to team lead, then finally to manager over the course of 1 hour 30 minutes with nobody giving me any real information. I HIT GOLD, the manager states, your selling bitcoin. i politely reply, "no sir, i am not, that is against paypals rules, i am selling specialized hardware which is like a computer but designed for one purpose, and that is hashing on a SHA-256 encrypted network", He replies back, well its all the same and bitcoin is direct competition with paypals business model therefore we do not condone, anything bitcoin related. and wouldnt ya know it, smartphones have cool little apps that record phone calls, which i always do so i can take notes later on after the call for the lawsuit i was planning to file.

The next morning i called my lawyer and told him about it. at first he says "you did what? recorded them without their permission?" i said no, they were the ones who told me the call could be recorded or monitored, and i just wanted to make sure it was recorded right. He says, hold on one second please, switches lines, and calls paypals customer service number then 3 ways the call. not even 20 seconds into the call when it is getting ready to switch to a representative, presto there is the call recording disclosure.

Instantly he begins to laugh, and says, well ok, record them all then and we can transcribe them. Needless to say it took a few days and a few dozen threatening phone calls, but we got the funds un frozen. I figured, well that was fun, but back to business. here comes the kicker, 7 hours later i have only 2 auctions close for a total of $8,300 in total.

i print the labels, stop at UPS in the morning and drop off the miners, and before i could even get home. whamo account limitations again. i think to myself. you have to be kidding me, a company cannot suck this bad and still be in business. So i look at what they want this time, and all it says is check e-mail for additional required documentation. so i check our e-mail, and there is nothing at all. so back to the phone. again from CS rep, to sup, to lead to manager over the course of about an hour this time. then put on hold for 43 minutes, and the guy only check in once saying its going to be a few more minutes.

Then a lady ( real bitch of a woman ) gets on the phone and says "my name is blah blah, from the paypal high risk assessment department, we need invoices from your suppliers before we can release the funds, i tell her, "listen lady, we sent an invoice to you already last week for 10 times more machines than we have sold so far dont play that game with me" she then puts me on hold, and says oh, well there was a charge back on your account which needs to be settled before we can lift the hold. mind you i am sitting in front of the computer looking at my screen, not only do we have thousands in the account, but we have NEVER in years of selling had a charge back, and surely not any showing on our account now. So i ask, ok, who, where, when? we have thousands in our account, so unless everyone did a charge back at once, there is no way we are negative, i am looking at my balance now !!!! She says ok we will look into it and give you a call tomorrow. although not satisfied, i was tired, so i hung up. funny thing, 5 minutes later i refresh the page and the account is not limited an more.

This brings us to last week, we made it an entire week and 4 whole smooth transactions through ebay/paypal, not a problem, i had actually thanked my lawyer that monday for his help, and said, hope i dont need you again any time soon. That afternoon we had a few more auctions close. and same scenario, i leave UPS drive the 5 blocks home and in that time, our account gets limited, only of course after i send the merchandise. This time no prevail. $54,600usd frozen as of 12/30, dozens of calls, dozens of BS reasons why they did it, and no resolution option, it says check email for required documentation. By wednesday afternoon my legal team says O.K. this is where we step in, a company cannot hold peoples money hostage because they dont like bitcoin.

And the battle begins, their paralegals transcribe every phone call, copy every e-mail print every screen shot, copy hundreds of complaints from srew-paypal.com and paypal sucks.com. The start blasting it everywhere, writing senators, congress people, filing complaints with the DOJ, the FTC, the IC3, the NW3C everybody pretty much, at the same time the file a petition with the court for a ruling on letting us Sue them in court. The next day the court throws it out.

Then friday comes, and my lawyer calls and says " you have 20 minutes, we need to be at the courthouse" i didnt know what to think, they really didnt either. we get there and this sweet little old lady takes us to a room behind the courtroom and the judge was there. he pulls out a folder from his desk drawer about 3 inches thick it is filled with sheets of paper, and little pick pieces of paper, he then turns his phone around and it is flashing the number 34 on it, as in 34 voice mails. He says "you sure know how to ruin a mans weekend, i dont know who you talked to, but i want to see all of you in my courtroom on monday morning and i will rule on your petition.

For a minute, i really thought i was going to be in some trouble. The lawyers said this is either going to be really bad, or really good, imagine how my weekend was spent this weekend. This morning we arrive 30 minutes early at the court house and the room had like 15 people in it. The judge comes in, sits down, and says " Send them a letter of intent to sue, request that they reply within 2 weeks, if they do not resolve the issue, or reply, i will see this case in my courtroom" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guess whos going to sue paypal. letter of intent gets sent in the morning via US certified mail. Paypal starts to bully bitcoin AND BITCOIN BITES BACK

Now, how does this affect you? well in a lot of ways. 1: if we win, paypal could lose their right to accept credit cards, and face it, what is paypal without credit cards? 2: what is bitcoin without paypal? simple EVERYTHING  in terms of funds transfer and commerce. and finally....

3: have you been wronged by paypal yourself? do you have a well documented history of being held hostage by paypal? Well, we now have a pretty good process for you to get revenge, and i am going to start a website that tells you how to do it whether we win or lose in court. In the mean time remember these steps because documentation is everything.

1: take screen shots, make sure your clock is showing the date and time in the picture. anything they put on the resolution center page

2: always print EVERY email. get a folder, a real paper folder, print them and file them, sorted by date.

3: ALWAYS record every phone call, even if your state wont let you use it in court. it is not illegal to transcribe a call. so record it, then get a free software that does text to speech and let it transcribe the call for you. once done PRINT IT and save it. Record the time of the call and the date.

4: If you have to deal in fiat for the time being try and avoid paypal.

5: be sure and keep all your interactions filed neatly, sooner or later you are going to need to file a formal complaint with SEVERAL agencies, authorities, regulatory bodies, and eventually draft a letter of intent to sue.

And there you have it, Hopefully paypal gets everything they deserve in court. How dare they start commiting white collar crimes against people who are "associated with bitcoin"

Bitcoin vs. Paypal

[/b]

and bitcoin is going to win

Sorry I just had to split the huge wall into parts.

Your story sounded like what happened to me with PayPal. But I didn't sue. I wished I did now.

[cryptoirc]

Good luck, they ruined my booming business too. I was at the peak of my sales and they limited me as well several times.

[vandeam]

Good Luck Bro!!
I really hope you will win!

Maybe Bitcoin be with you!

[cp1]

Go for it, just expect them to close your account give you a pittance and a NDA and forbid you from ever doing business with them again.

/sued paypal many years ago and won.

That's what I'm thinking too.

[Abdi Shakur]

Good for you and best of luck as others have said please keep us updated.

[Kenshin]

Good luck, they ruined my booming business too. I was at the peak of my sales and they limited me as well several times.

I was in the same position. I was at my peak, and I was selling more than 10 mining equipments a day. Then those bastard limited my account for 2 months. Now I got my account back. And I can't sell the price I was selling now.

[ecoinclub]

Thank you! You are taking a stand for all of us (literally all of us)

[rezilient]

OP - please contact me.  I left you a PM.  I have been selling on eBay since 2003.  I've been steadily selling Android TV media boxes for over 1 year now.  Never had any problems.  However my PayPal account was frozen about 2 weeks after I started selling AsicMiner Cubes.  They are holding a significant amount of money and refuse to release the funds, although I have fulfilled their requirements of providing proof of delivery and copy of invoices.  They have not said anything about Bitcoin, however their underwriting department said that I'm selling a "high risk item"... Not sure what to do at this point...

[lethe]

Toasting in an epic bread.

Anyway, this will be interesting and PayPal has really made a monumental mistake if they think they can screw mining hardware sellers in this way.

[ratty]

Its like watching a Catholic priest get charged with molestation, and dozens of people come out of the woodwork to testify.
I cant wait to watch paypal burn for this.

[snaxion]

Bunch of grammar-nazis on here.

Way to go. I've had trouble with paypal as well but not the resources to fight it.

[jballs]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/cb9sovr

[nairb131]

I hope you win this. I have been screwed by them a few times. Recently lost $600 to their crappy policies.

[CrazyGuy]

Very interesting, they've only hassled me once but they've never locked my funds. The women I spoke with said it was related to the number of chargebacks they are receiving on bitcoin miners. I'm guessing almost all pre-order miners that have ended up on eBay and never delivered certainly resulted in chargebacks. It seems it would be easy to determine what is a preorder by looking at the delivery confirmations but they are just red flagging all miner related sales. I think a manager you spoke with also singled you out after you made him work a bit.

[rezilient]

Just got off the phone with PayPal about my limited account.  They said my account was limited for a couple of reasons:

1) due to the recent influx of high dollar amount transactions in my account (the previous product I was selling averaged $300, while the AsicMiner Cubes are about $800-900 which is not a huge increase really),
and
2) due to Bitcoin related products being treated as "high risk" by PayPal's underwriting department

They are waiting for all the shipment tracking status to show as "Delivered" before they will remove the limit, and at this point I have one package left to Greece which has not arrived yet.  However she said they would consider releasing a portion of the funds right now (she will get back to me by the end of today).  

She said the best way to avoid this is to have a rolling reserve of funds in my account to cover any disputes for up to 60 days after the transactions.  I typically withdraw the money bi-weekly, leaving enough for returns to cover my 14 day return policy, since I am nervous about keeping ANY balance in PayPal.  However I'm fine with keeping a larger reserve in my PayPal account if it means preventing my account from getting frozen again.  However my gut feeling is that despite keeping a reserve in the account, my account will continue to get flagged/frozen as long as I continue to sell Bitcoin mining hardware.  I think it might just be an automated system with a penchant for flagging Bitcoin related items.

I will keep you all posted.

[vpitcher07]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

It makes sense because Paypal's business is based on processing transactions. Once more people start using Bitcoin for their transactions, Paypall will do less business. Less business means less profit. Do you see the connection?

No I don't. Paypals business is based on secure, safe transactions.  

Despite what everyone here will tell you, paypal isn't doing this because of profits. They're doing it to help combat fraud, which to me sounds 100% understandable. It says right in their policy you can't sell bitcoin miners or bitcoins, yet OP did anyways which is why they froze and put holds on his accounts.

Combat fraud?
I guess you missed the "HIT GOLD" section, and besides he is selling computers (miners) not bitcoins.

This. If they're going to ban things based on their ability to hash SHA 256 they might want to start banning all computers tablets and cell phones...

[erik777]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

Paypal, and consequently eBay, is very much at odds with Bitcoin as a merchant payment.  Specifically, they are at odds with Bitpay and other Bitcoin payment processors. 

Besides eBay being impacted because they own Paypal, until they accept Bitcoins, then people will have have a reason to switch to auctions that do.  On the other hand, if they do accept Bitcoins, then it erodes their Paypal business. 

[Kungfucheez]

Something seems...fishy about this whole story. I've never heard of Paypal having anything against bitcoins, especially the actual hardware used because it's just computer hardware.

There must be something else in that mess of a wall you're not telling people.

I agree something is fishy with this story. It's not just paypal that does this, all merchant accounts have high risk departments that hold customers money for a certain amount of time. Paypal is just one of the worst because so many of their customers are joe smo's who have no merchant processing backgrounds and deal in high risk/high chargeback businesses (like selling used equipment, and in a notoriously chargeback friendly btc field)

Best of luck to the OP suing paypal though, seriously. Good to see someone really fighting. Hope that works out well for you. IMHO, I don't think this will go anywhere, at all.

It makes sense to me that Paypal is at odds with Bitcoin, therefore have decided to use these tactics. It's believable, to me.

Why does that make sense? Paypal has nothing to gain from being against bitcoins. Paypal is not a form of currency. Bitcoins in no way threatens their profits and business model, and bitcoins is not competing against them in any way.

My guess is OP did something else to piss them off and they had no choice. I mean, if you are doing a million dollars worth of sales like you said, then all they stand to do is benefit from your service. So you most likely did something wrong you aren't telling us.

Paypal, and consequently eBay, is very much at odds with Bitcoin as a merchant payment.  Specifically, they are at odds with Bitpay and other Bitcoin payment processors. 

Besides eBay being impacted because they own Paypal, until they accept Bitcoins, then people will have have a reason to switch to auctions that do.  On the other hand, if they do accept Bitcoins, then it erodes their Paypal business. 

No, they aren't

[nimda]

Aw I didn't know Bitmit shutdown.

It's a shame, too. None of the competition provides close to what they had.

[Duane Vick]

I hope they get that manager that said it was due to you selling bitcoin hardware in a deposition so she can explain why she knows that.

[surebet]

Docket number please, I'd like to follow this on PACER.

[TerraHasher]

Ok, sorry guys, i didnt expect this much of a response and as much as i want to read each and every one of your posts, my current day to days are keeping me pretty tied down.

Of the few posts i browsed through i did some some very wrong information, some very far out there accusations, and some people who either got lost in the run on paragraph glitch, or didnt read the whole post so i am going to make a few things clear.

1: We have had a paypal business account for a decade now, linked to our business bank accounts, and the account is registered with our EIN not my social security number

2: California is a two party consent law state. meaning both parties must agree to having a phone call recorded. My lawyers did not think that paypal gave that consent when they first found out i recorded the calls. It was only when they heard the recording giving that consent to EVERYONE in which it became legal and admissible in court.

3: Paypal on NUMEROUS occasions admitted that the ONLY reason they were freezing the account was because i sold bitcoin hardware.

4: We have had not a single chargback or issue this entire calender year ( 2013 ) which warranted freezing the assets

5: The reason paypal WILL lose their right to process credit cards if i win is because a major part of the lawsuit is based on cardholder agreements. By processing credit cards paypal has agreed to adhere to the rules, regulations, and laws pertaining to the issuing company of the card. In which they are violating by seizing cardholder funds without warrant or court order. This has nothing to do with the fact that they are my funds once transferred to a bank. By law, until a transaction takes place in which a buyer receives goods and a seller receives funds, the funds belong to the buyer or card holder. Seizing those funds as a payment processor without warrant or order is a crime. Had all the merchandise been shipped to customers this would have been a different story. This part of what is going on has nothing to do with myself directly, this is a result of the FTC and SEC as paypal holds those monies in a money market account.

6: paypal does not make a profit. yes they charge you fees, but they have yet to develop a business model which has profit. With the amount of charg backs and delinquent negative accounts held on paypal, they have operated in the red since inception. They are barley 10 years old, maybe a little more, still a new company by every aspect, and they are still floating on borrowed capital ( ebay capital )

7: Nothing in paypals agreement states you cannot sell bitcoin mining hardware. For that matter it dosnt specifically say you cannot sell bitcoin either, but with legal interpretation it can be considered a currency no matter if the Fed admits it or not. A bitcoin miner is just a highly specialized computer. Trust me, my lawyers are not chumps, nor idiots. The only reason i hired them in the first place is because they have won 90% of their cases against major corporations like Lockheed Martin, Disney, Wal-Mart, Etc. as a matter of fact even their associates have to have a degree from Harvard ( they dont legally say that, it just seems to be the case as everyone there came from Harvard )

I am sure there was a lot more that i missed, but i haven't much time tonight.

To all of you, (hundreds of messages) who have messaged me. I feel your pain, i am there right now as you can see. Rather than reply to each of you one at a time which would take weeks. I will be starting a thread to help all of you out as a group. I am just one man who happened to get luck with a few well written letters from some very important people that convinced a judge to let me take them to court. Your chance of replicating that are slim to none. I am not here to give you false hopes, those are just the facts. From experience i can tell you that as a GROUP, collectively with thousands of pages of documented communications and hundreds of complaints filed with regulatory bodies simultaneously you would all again as a GROUP increase your chances of success.

Trust me, thousands of people have tried to get paypal in a court room. just google it. you can count the number of people who pulled it off on one hand.

I will post a link to my Hold paypal accountable thread once i have it written. It will take me a few days so please hang tight. Hopefully i dont suffer from paragraph tofu on that post as well.

Thank you all for your support. Our letter of intent was mailed today, and now we just wait. i will keep you all as in the loop as time permits. For those of you who want to get in on a group action against paypal please see the original post. SAVE, DOCUMENT, PRINT, AND RECORD EVERYTHING (check your local law before you record, some states do not allow it no matter what without court order)

[jballs]

This thread makes me happy.

I had someone force a chargeback on me a couple months ago, for services I rendered (Skype lessons) over 90 days after he paid me and a month after I finished training him. No complaints, no notice, no reason given.

Aside from that I have had no real problems with PayPal but the fees are high for what they do and of course I have heard the horror stories such as this one.

This is why bitcoin is going to work, is working. Absent all speculation it is just a better way of doing business and I am stoked to have an alternative finally.

Good luck in court, if it gets that far.

[markm]

Might illegally seizing competitor's customers' funds on the basis that those customers are themselves marketing equipment that could be construed as enabling even more competition be interpretable as anti-competion practices, putting it somewhere in the anti-racketeering / anti-monopolies sectors?

-MarkM-

[TerraHasher]

Docket number please, I'd like to follow this on PACER.

Sure thing man, for now, we have only gotten an approval to be heard. The actual lawsuit does not start until they do not reply to the letter of intent to sue, as per the judges orders. i guess even though paypal is not, i am supposed to be fair by giving them a notice to fix the issue or end up in a court room. As soon as the actual lawsuit fires up and hits the docket i will absolutely share it for you all to keep up on. it will make things a ton easier than me trying to keep updating the forum here every night.

Or were you asking for the docket number for our original request to be able to sue? If you were, the original filings were dismissed and thrown out without us even being heard. We only got the go ahead after that was already dismissed. I can get you the docket number for it i am sure, but as i stated in the original post, it will probably just say "dismissed" on it. We didn't file an appeal, the courts called us back which is totally out of the norm i am sure.

[Kungfucheez]

Ok, sorry guys, i didnt expect this much of a response and as much as i want to read each and every one of your posts, my current day to days are keeping me pretty tied down.

Of the few posts i browsed through i did some some very wrong information, some very far out there accusations, and some people who either got lost in the run on paragraph glitch, or didnt read the whole post so i am going to make a few things clear.

1: We have had a paypal business account for a decade now, linked to our business bank accounts, and the account is registered with our EIN not my social security number

2: California is a two party consent law state. meaning both parties must agree to having a phone call recorded. My lawyers did not think that paypal gave that consent when they first found out i recorded the calls. It was only when they heard the recording giving that consent to EVERYONE in which it became legal and admissible in court.

3: Paypal on NUMEROUS occasions admitted that the ONLY reason they were freezing the account was because i sold bitcoin hardware.

4: We have had not a single chargback or issue this entire calender year ( 2013 ) which warranted freezing the assets

5: The reason paypal WILL lose their right to process credit cards if i win is because a major part of the lawsuit is based on cardholder agreements. By processing credit cards paypal has agreed to adhere to the rules, regulations, and laws pertaining to the issuing company of the card. In which they are violating by seizing cardholder funds without warrant or court order. This has nothing to do with the fact that they are my funds once transferred to a bank. By law, until a transaction takes place in which a buyer receives goods and a seller receives funds, the funds belong to the buyer or card holder. Seizing those funds as a payment processor without warrant or order is a crime. Had all the merchandise been shipped to customers this would have been a different story. This part of what is going on has nothing to do with myself directly, this is a result of the FTC and SEC as paypal holds those monies in a money market account.

6: paypal does not make a profit. yes they charge you fees, but they have yet to develop a business model which has profit. With the amount of charg backs and delinquent negative accounts held on paypal, they have operated in the red since inception. They are barley 10 years old, maybe a little more, still a new company by every aspect, and they are still floating on borrowed capital ( ebay capital )

7: Nothing in paypals agreement states you cannot sell bitcoin mining hardware. For that matter it dosnt specifically say you cannot sell bitcoin either, but with legal interpretation it can be considered a currency no matter if the Fed admits it or not. A bitcoin miner is just a highly specialized computer. Trust me, my lawyers are not chumps, nor idiots. The only reason i hired them in the first place is because they have won 90% of their cases against major corporations like Lockheed Martin, Disney, Wal-Mart, Etc. as a matter of fact even their associates have to have a degree from Harvard ( they dont legally say that, it just seems to be the case as everyone there came from Harvard )

I am sure there was a lot more that i missed, but i haven't much time tonight.

To all of you, (hundreds of messages) who have messaged me. I feel your pain, i am there right now as you can see. Rather than reply to each of you one at a time which would take weeks. I will be starting a thread to help all of you out as a group. I am just one man who happened to get luck with a few well written letters from some very important people that convinced a judge to let me take them to court. Your chance of replicating that are slim to none. I am not here to give you false hopes, those are just the facts. From experience i can tell you that as a GROUP, collectively with thousands of pages of documented communications and hundreds of complaints filed with regulatory bodies simultaneously you would all again as a GROUP increase your chances of success.

Trust me, thousands of people have tried to get paypal in a court room. just google it. you can count the number of people who pulled it off on one hand.

I will post a link to my Hold paypal accountable thread once i have it written. It will take me a few days so please hang tight. Hopefully i dont suffer from paragraph tofu on that post as well.

Thank you all for your support. Our letter of intent was mailed today, and now we just wait. i will keep you all as in the loop as time permits. For those of you who want to get in on a group action against paypal please see the original post. SAVE, DOCUMENT, PRINT, AND RECORD EVERYTHING (check your local law before you record, some states do not allow it no matter what without court order)

You're not going to win

[Delmonger]

Paypal has given me a lot of grief when it comes to bitcoin related sales.  They made false claims about my account, held my funds for no valid reason, and when I submitted the documentation and waited (3 months later) still they apparently failed to review my documents.

I have evidence that Paypal has ignored my submissions.

After being on hold for about an hour and discussing the situation and trying to resolve the issue, they got upset and "bitchcoins" came up, I said "I'm sorry?" and then the guy goes off on another subject.

[bryant.coleman]

Actually the owners sold it to someone. But the new owner hasn't shown any enthusiasm to resume the operations. 

Maybe ebay bought it and killed it.

Don't know whether eBay was behind it or not... but things are looking gloomy at the moment.

[erono]

bookmarked

TerraHasher please update us soon.

[LightRider]

The fact that they actually said out loud that the reason they're harassing you is because bitcoin is a competitor is mind blowing. They'll hang themselves in court for sure.

[medUSA]

I sure hope you win this case against paypal, never liked them. Gave my lots of problems years ago and haven't used them since. but I believe they would settle your case outside the court. They wouldn't allow a precedent case against them, so others may follow. Actually, there is a huge market for paypal to be an escrow for bitcoin payments. They should think about starting a "bitpal".

[davedx]

I didn't read it all (sorry), but I'm interested:

Is there a BTC address for the legal fund? I and am sure many other BTC supports would be interested in donating.

[Bitbuy]

will be interesting to see this play out...
PS: next time, maybe pay attention to the formatting of your post, so that it doesn't take away focus of your real message, which is interesting)

[s1lverbox]

I didn't read it all (sorry), but I'm interested:

Is there a BTC address for the legal fund? I and am sure many other BTC supports would be interested in donating.

really?

[aminorex]

Please post an address for donations.

[TerraHasher]

Please post an address for donations.

Hey guys, thanks for the support, I wasnt really looking for donations. The minute someone starts seeking money for something a conversation usually turns from being productive into a whole other conversations about "scam, rippoff, blah blah, troll some more etc." Im sure you get the idea. I will post an address for now for people who want to send donations for whatever, but i do have to re-state, as of now, the legal team is not charging me anything so donations would be more on principal than anything. Also if posting a donation address starts to take this thread off topic and in another direction, please understand that i will take down the address. I do not want this to turn into one of "those" threads.

Again, thank you all for your support, we are patiently awaiting confirmation from the post office that the letter has been delivered and signed for. I will be sure and update you all once that happens as that is when the 2 weeks to take action clock begins.

(also on a side note, i had one of our buyers get scared and back out on a Round 1 batch 2 ( march delivery) BA x-3 machine because of paypal freezing their funds as well for sending us payment through paypal. If anyone is interested i can contact BA and see if they will allow an address transfer or something if you want to buy it. Just message me)

Donation address: 1A8anGihV3pvHeuhqzGsAjt2S71WY2qea4

[whtchocla7e]

Paypal is a payment processor. They're most likely already working on something for Bitcoin. Why are they seen as competitors?

Question for OP: why do you not sell equipment for Bitcoins?

[coiner92]

Got same problems. They shutdown my listings a few times. But I was selling the actual crypto currency. I don't find it fair that ebay allows other forms of currencies and other digital items but when it comes to cryptos it's under the restricted area. Selling currencies is allowed. Selling digital items is allowed. But selling digital currency is not allowed? I think they just hate cryptos. But I never sell btc or anything over $15 anymore. I already made my money. And I put it one item at a time. Just to be safe.

[-Redacted-]

Add me to the suit.  Paypal froze my account with $26,000 from selling on hand day-1 KNC Jupiters in it because someone reported that I was selling bitcoin.  No appeal.  Frozen solid.  I was told there were chargebacks, but not allowed into my account to see what those chargebacks were.  Money will be frozen for another 4 months.  (After 6 months they will decide how much of my money they will allow me to have back.)

Please PM me for contact info - I absolutely want to be a participant in this lawsuit.  

[skivrmt]

Add me to the suit.  Paypal froze my account with $26,000 from selling on hand day-1 KNC Jupiters in it because someone reported that I was selling bitcoin.  No appeal.  Frozen solid.  I was told there were chargebacks, but not allowed into my account to see what those chargebacks were.  Money will be frozen for another 4 months.  (After 6 months they will decide how much of my money they will allow me to haveback.)

Please PM me for contact info - I absolutely want to be a participant in this lawsuit.  

This is the part that gets me.  It's not the actual freezing of accounts.  They have every right to do that if they think something is suspect (not saying you did anything suspect of course but people do!).  But there should be a law for how LONG they can freeze your cash until the issue gets resolved.  Paypal is famous for freezing, then no word for months. 

If they freeze your account, they should have a dedicated 800# to call, with a case number to resolve any issues quickly.  This I'm sure has taken many legitimate businesses out there out of business when suddenly their cash flow became frozen.

[-Redacted-]

I was told that my account was frozen for six months because my business with them was considered "too risky".  No other reason, and no appeal  possible.   What gives them the right to confiscate my account - short of being law enforcement and obtaining a warrant for something like violation of AMLs or the IRS doing it for non-payment of taxes - why would they have ANY right to confiscate or hold my property?

[campycoin]

Paypal has given me a lot of grief when it comes to bitcoin related sales.  They made false claims about my account, held my funds for no valid reason, and when I submitted the documentation and waited (3 months later) still they apparently failed to review my documents.

I have evidence that Paypal has ignored my submissions.

After being on hold for about an hour and discussing the situation and trying to resolve the issue, they got upset and "bitchcoins" came up, I said "I'm sorry?" and then the guy goes off on another subject.

I just got scammed too!  F PayPal!  I can't believe someone like me working honestly gets shit on like this.  In my phone conversation today I also heard the guy on the phone refer to selling "bitchcoins".  This just isn't right.  Does PayPal know that they are allowing and encouraging scammers to operate like they do?  There is no consequence to being a scammer piece of shit.  So, I decided I'd post these peoples names and bitcoin addresses here for all to see these no good a-holes. Cost me money and I have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay.

I even looked on eBay first and saw others selling btc and I knew how hard it wwas for me to get at first and I was trying to help people out.  That went well.  I turned in all messages and corespondence to PayPal and they didn't even look at it.

Here is my address if you already mad your millions and want to help me out.  If not, I totally understand, not looking for a handout, bu would be gracious to those who have extra.
My Wallet: address removed

Here are the loser scammers:

carildcemcgoldrick@yahoo.com
Brett Keller
1202 Larkspur Dr
Scottsbluff, NE 69361-4513
United States
ebay ID: jericamicron  Purchase:  $200 USD
Wrote this message: "please send to 1CimKHU3eUjphZe3m8Khv4K9ZEU4uEfCFh btc id"   

Dany Gagnon
gagdan@videotron.ca
ebay ID: dany_boy_65  purchase $400 USD Messaged via PayPal
Dany Gagnon
213, des Amerindiens
Quebec QC  G2M 1P3
Canada

frank j butrico
9 Gentry Dr
warren, NJ 07059
United States
frank butrico
fbut82087167@aol.com
eBay ID: fbut82087129ay  purchase $200 USD
Messaged me: "hello dear sir plz deposit btc in this address: 15ii44RvqwBQjJ7gRnEZ4RSV7hpjTr7pQS"

Hank J. Klien
345 18th Avenue E.
Seattle, WA 98112
USA
hjklien@mail.com
eBay ID: hankypanky554 purchase $400 USD eBay claims this person is no longer a member
Messaged me: "btc wallet is 1GTnq6Ym1S3z2gAA9nB4o6TXqfzwmNLQKL"

So, if anyone has any run in with these scammers, I suggest you punch them in the face with all your might.

Again, if you purchased bitcoins when they were $5 and can afford to help....
My Wallet: address removed

If not, I understand... I am no longer in a position to donate.  Thanks Scammers

JC
 

[campycoin]

Paypal has given me a lot of grief when it comes to bitcoin related sales.  They made false claims about my account, held my funds for no valid reason, and when I submitted the documentation and waited (3 months later) still they apparently failed to review my documents.

I have evidence that Paypal has ignored my submissions.

After being on hold for about an hour and discussing the situation and trying to resolve the issue, they got upset and "bitchcoins" came up, I said "I'm sorry?" and then the guy goes off on another subject.

I just got scammed too!  F PayPal!  I can't believe someone like me working honestly gets shit on like this.  In my phone conversation today I also heard the guy on the phone refer to selling "bitchcoins".  This just isn't right.  Does PayPal know that they are allowing and encouraging scammers to operate like they do?  There is no consequence to being a scammer piece of shit.  So, I decided I'd post these peoples names and bitcoin addresses here for all to see these no good a-holes. Cost me money and I have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay.

I even looked on eBay first and saw others selling btc and I knew how hard it wwas for me to get at first and I was trying to help people out.  That went well.  I turned in all messages and corespondence to PayPal and they didn't even look at it.

Here is my address if you already mad your millions and want to help me out.  If not, I totally understand, not looking for a handout, bu would be gracious to those who have extra.
My Wallet: address removed

Here are the loser scammers:

carildcemcgoldrick@yahoo.com
Brett Keller
1202 Larkspur Dr
Scottsbluff, NE 69361-4513
United States
ebay ID: jericamicron  Purchase:  $200 USD
Wrote this message: "please send to 1CimKHU3eUjphZe3m8Khv4K9ZEU4uEfCFh btc id"   

Dany Gagnon
gagdan@videotron.ca
ebay ID: dany_boy_65  purchase $400 USD Messaged via PayPal
Dany Gagnon
213, des Amerindiens
Quebec QC  G2M 1P3
Canada

frank j butrico
9 Gentry Dr
warren, NJ 07059
United States
frank butrico
fbut82087167@aol.com
eBay ID: fbut82087129ay  purchase $200 USD
Messaged me: "hello dear sir plz deposit btc in this address: 15ii44RvqwBQjJ7gRnEZ4RSV7hpjTr7pQS"

Hank J. Klien
345 18th Avenue E.
Seattle, WA 98112
USA
hjklien@mail.com
eBay ID: hankypanky554 purchase $400 USD eBay claims this person is no longer a member
Messaged me: "btc wallet is 1GTnq6Ym1S3z2gAA9nB4o6TXqfzwmNLQKL"

So, if anyone has any run in with these scammers, I suggest you punch them in the face with all your might.

Again, if you purchased bitcoins when they were $5 and can afford to help....
My Wallet: address removed

If not, I understand... I am no longer in a position to donate.  Thanks Scammers

JC
 

lol, did you seriously just release these peoples addresses and names??

I'm sure he doesn't care, because these people probably did chargebacks after he sold bitcoin on ebay.

Of course, it was totally stupid to sell coin on ebay, and accept payment by paypal.

Thats correct, they scammed me.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE.  I do take exception to your "stupid" comment.  eBay allows the sale.  Paypal says paid, ok to send, I send to the address they provide and a month later they all do chargebacks.  I hate this world and the scum that feel the need to screw other human beings.  At this point in evolution don't these people realize it's time to get a job?

[The-Real-Link]

Good luck in your lawsuit.  On a totally unrelated note dealing with Paypal, I had a bidder request a refund for a purchased product that was more or less what they ordered, even though the wording was slightly off in mistake and I explained my issue.  PP immediately held my account for over $550 and their convoluted system of holds and reverse refunds was confusing.  Had to call someone just to ensure the funds were properly taken care of from said buyer when it should be made much easier.

[lumierre]

I had the same issues with PayPal last year. I'm surprised this international fraud still hasn't been closed down.

I was running a business on the internet when suddenly they limit my account. Asked for a reason, they just said it was a "High Risk" business. I was like, WTF? Called again and they said decision was final. There was thousands of dollars in that account and it just got frozen.

They do this account freezes mostly on people who live in countries away from the US or Singapore so you don't have any legal power to fight back. To this day, I'm still very upset. Life could've been a lot better.

I'm glad somebody is taking action against this large scale financial theft. Please bring justice to those scammed people, especially those in foreign lands. F*** these paypal bastards. They freeze your hard earned money anytime they fu****g like.

[BittBurger]

You know ...

I have spent the last 4 weeks asking PayPal why my account was suddenly being limited as well. 

Out of thin air, 90% of my orders were declining for no apparent reason, and then we had 4 orders suddenly put on hold.

When I called I got the same explanation:  "You must have had a chargeback"

As it turns out, I had made a couple purchases of physical bitcoins through Ebay just prior to all this ....

-BB-

[BittBurger]

Amen to that by the way, i gave my lawyers 200 BTC back August for retainer, come October one of them (jokingly) proposed to me. Why do my own dirty work when people will do it for bitcoin. all i had to do was follow their instructions.

Man you must have a downright shit ton of BTC to be tossing around 200 Bitcoin ... even at August prices ... that's one hell of a retainer.

-BB-

[Meizirkki]

No offense but you did a really stupid thing posting all about this online before settling things with paypal. They're going to scroll through every word.

[jamie10511]

hi terrahasher

pls share your ebay username/s

cheers

[TerraHasher]

Update:

Today is the day the letter of intent was set to be delivered, so i should know within the next 12 hours, and the 2 week clock should start ticking. i will post the minute i get confirmation. Thats all i have at this Time


On another note, Can we please keep from all the off topic discussion, This is not a debate thread on what you can and cannot sell on ebay, this is not a thread for you to come and beg for donations because you got scammed. This IS a thread where people can keep updated on the progress of a pending lawsuit, and share their experiences with paypal themselves.

I am a VERY laid back and chill individual, but at the same time i dont find it fair that someone has to wollow through 5 pages that are one third filled with garbage and off topic posts about things that do not even pertain to paypal just to find the latest update. I hate being confrontational so lets please just keep it on topic, i dont want to have to be that guy who goes running to the moderators, and would rather just stop keeping everyone updated than have to fight with people taking the thread off topic. Please be respectful of your fellow forum readers.

[BitCoinzRUS]

Doesn't Paypal state in their user agreement that all disputes must be handled through "arbitration" and that by agreeing to the user agreement you revoke your right to sue them in a court of law?

Good luck, it's hard to win a case against a big corporation. Corporations like Paypal own the US government.

[TerraHasher]

Doesn't Paypal state in their user agreement that all disputes must be handled through "arbitration" and that by agreeing to the user agreement you revoke your right to sue them in a court of law?

Good luck, it's hard to win a case against a big corporation. Corporations like Paypal own the US government.

Yes they do, and thats why we needed a judge to rule that he would hear the case in open court. On the principal that this is not a small claims case as it is WELL over $5,000, and furthermore as this case has criminal actions.

The reason Paypal binds that arbitration is because they know that a lot of what they do is Illegal and if it ends up in a court room ( which is very very very very rare ) they just try and buy the prosecution off with a minimal stipens and slap them with an NDA. The difference here being, we are not just seeking compensatory and punitive damages. I do not have a "buy me off" value and will NOT be signing and NDA unless paypal is FULLY held accountable for their criminal actions.

This isnt about money, anybody who knows me personally knows that the bitcoin i hold is more than enough to live off for 4 lifetimes. Even if this entire lawsuit goes array, i have decided personally that here and now is the time paypal starts having to play by the rules, and if needed i will still continue to lead a massive movement against paypals criminal actions. Just in the bitcoin community alone i have been contacted by WELL over 1,500 people now who have almost the same experience with paypal.

Its the same principal as doctor assisted suicide. Killing another human being is a crime, just because they sign a piece of paper agreeing "hey, its ok to kill me now, i want to die" does not make it legal as many courts have ruled hundreds of times. Its the same with paypal. 70 % of their standard business practice is illegal by charge of the FTC, SEC and several other regulatory bodies. Just because you check a box saying you agree to let them treat you with disregard to the law, does not make it legal.

Thus far paypal has been able to buy off anyone who challenges them, but most people who challenge them are opposing over a few thousand dollars, so when paypal says "fine heres your money, but you sign this NDA first" people just take it as they know they have not the financial means to continue to peruse paypal. I on the other hand have a great legal team who actually to this point have refused to take any more money from me, and even if it gets to the point i need to pay, i can go toe to toe with paypal for a VERY long time as a result of all the wonderful life changes bitcoin has brought me.

paypal after all has not made a profit a single year in business yet, and the only thing keeping them afloat is ebays seller fees.

For the rest of you who want to repeat the same post over and over:

I am well aware paypal is probably following this thread with a fine tooth comb. But with that, they are also aware that i have thousands of people who want to take action too, and even though we cannot combine lawsuits into class action, they are aware that i am not going to stop and that even if i lose thousands of people from the bitcoin community alone are going to have someone to help them, and lead them into their own actions as a group. Not to mention how many people will stand up against paypals illegal actions once they know there is a group leading a charge against them that are not part of bitcoin.

In summary: The crime that has been allowed to continue for a decade now will stop here, and it will stop now. WE WILL TAKE A STAND even if i lose. you can silence one or two, but you cannot silence the masses.

[Dogtanian]

Hope you are successful. Paypal needs to be held accountable for their actions. They can't just go handing money back to criminals without any good reason.

[erik777]

Update:

Today is the day the letter of intent was set to be delivered, so i should know within the next 12 hours, and the 2 week clock should start ticking. i will post the minute i get confirmation. Thats all i have at this Time


On another note, Can we please keep from all the off topic discussion, This is not a debate thread on what you can and cannot sell on ebay, this is not a thread for you to come and beg for donations because you got scammed. This IS a thread where people can keep updated on the progress of a pending lawsuit, and share their experiences with paypal themselves.

I am a VERY laid back and chill individual, but at the same time i dont find it fair that someone has to wollow through 5 pages that are one third filled with garbage and off topic posts about things that do not even pertain to paypal just to find the latest update. I hate being confrontational so lets please just keep it on topic, i dont want to have to be that guy who goes running to the moderators, and would rather just stop keeping everyone updated than have to fight with people taking the thread off topic. Please be respectful of your fellow forum readers.

TerraHasher, I've been a big supporter of your casue, helping you get the word out by bringing a lot of traffic to your thread.  Now I see one of my posts get deleted as off-topic?  Yes, technically, it wasn't within your narrow scope of discussing the day-to-day legal proceedings.  But, it was very much on topic in that it was supporting your notion that Paypal considers Bitcoin a competitive threat, which, as I understand it, is an important point in your case.  Am I right?  

This should be an open forum.  Yes, it's an imperfect world.  I haven't been happy having to ready 7 pages to keep up, with some off topic stuff in it.  But, removing posts because they don't fit a very narrow scope of the OP despite being on-topic in the minds of many of us is very anti-open discussion.  Moderation should be reserved for removing flames and spam.  Clearly off topic discussion should, if possible, be moved, with deletion as a last resort.  

I had someone say negative things about me on a comment on one of my blog posts.  Did I delete it?  No, I responded intelligently.  
  
Can I suggest you create a thread clearly begun with the narrow purpose of documenting the day to day proceedings, and leave this thread, where you detail the case, open to discussion by those who want to discuss the merits of the case?

[TerraHasher]

Update:

Today is the day the letter of intent was set to be delivered, so i should know within the next 12 hours, and the 2 week clock should start ticking. i will post the minute i get confirmation. Thats all i have at this Time


On another note, Can we please keep from all the off topic discussion, This is not a debate thread on what you can and cannot sell on ebay, this is not a thread for you to come and beg for donations because you got scammed. This IS a thread where people can keep updated on the progress of a pending lawsuit, and share their experiences with paypal themselves.

I am a VERY laid back and chill individual, but at the same time i dont find it fair that someone has to wollow through 5 pages that are one third filled with garbage and off topic posts about things that do not even pertain to paypal just to find the latest update. I hate being confrontational so lets please just keep it on topic, i dont want to have to be that guy who goes running to the moderators, and would rather just stop keeping everyone updated than have to fight with people taking the thread off topic. Please be respectful of your fellow forum readers.

TerraHasher, I've been a big supporter of your casue, helping you get the word out by bringing a lot of traffic to your thread.  Now I see one of my posts get deleted as off-topic?  Yes, technically, it wasn't within your narrow scope of discussing the day-to-day legal proceedings.  But, it was very much on topic in that it was supporting your notion that Paypal considers Bitcoin a competitive threat, which, as I understand it, is an important point in your case.  Am I right?  

This should be an open forum.  Yes, it's an imperfect world.  I haven't been happy having to ready 7 pages to keep up, with some off topic stuff in it.  But, removing posts because they don't fit a very narrow scope of the OP despite being on-topic in the minds of many of us is very anti-open discussion.  Moderation should be reserved for removing flames and spam.  Clearly off topic discussion should, if possible, be moved, with deletion as a last resort.  

I had someone say negative things about me on a comment on one of my blog posts.  Did I delete it?  No, I responded intelligently.  
  
Can I suggest you create a thread clearly begun with the narrow purpose of documenting the day to day proceedings, and leave this thread, where you detail the case, open to discussion by those who want to discuss the merits of the case?

Hey man, sorry to hear that, as you stated, unfortunately i dont have much control over moderation.

I have given some thought on how to handle something so large to make it easy to navigate and have decided that making my own website to not only blog about the case, or look back at it after it is done, but to serve as a central hub for everyone who paypal has wronged, outlining a group cause to bring down the hammer on them.

Yes i know there are plenty of "paypal sucks" website that have some useful information how to resolve your issues, but the fact remains that 80% of the time, they dont work and nobody as an individual stands a chance against paypal 1v1, so i have decided to start working on a 20,000 vs. paypal cause to help everyone else as i have had thousands of requests for help this week alone and cannot help anyone let alone everyone if i try to address each request individually.

None the less, until i get time to get a website together, lets try and keep this as close to on topic as possible. it is not that i am apposed to discussion, i actually encourage it, i just want it to be easy for people following to find updates without having to sort through pages of garbage that clutters up the progress.

[BitCoinzRUS]

Doesn't Paypal state in their user agreement that all disputes must be handled through "arbitration" and that by agreeing to the user agreement you revoke your right to sue them in a court of law?

Good luck, it's hard to win a case against a big corporation. Corporations like Paypal own the US government.

Yes they do, and thats why we needed a judge to rule that he would hear the case in open court. On the principal that this is not a small claims case as it is WELL over $5,000, and furthermore as this case has criminal actions.

The reason Paypal binds that arbitration is because they know that a lot of what they do is Illegal and if it ends up in a court room ( which is very very very very rare ) they just try and buy the prosecution off with a minimal stipens and slap them with an NDA. The difference here being, we are not just seeking compensatory and punitive damages. I do not have a "buy me off" value and will NOT be signing and NDA unless paypal is FULLY held accountable for their criminal actions.

This isnt about money, anybody who knows me personally knows that the bitcoin i hold is more than enough to live off for 4 lifetimes. Even if this entire lawsuit goes array, i have decided personally that here and now is the time paypal starts having to play by the rules, and if needed i will still continue to lead a massive movement against paypals criminal actions. Just in the bitcoin community alone i have been contacted by WELL over 1,500 people now who have almost the same experience with paypal.

Its the same principal as doctor assisted suicide. Killing another human being is a crime, just because they sign a piece of paper agreeing "hey, its ok to kill me now, i want to die" does not make it legal as many courts have ruled hundreds of times. Its the same with paypal. 70 % of their standard business practice is illegal by charge of the FTC, SEC and several other regulatory bodies. Just because you check a box saying you agree to let them treat you with disregard to the law, does not make it legal.

Thus far paypal has been able to buy off anyone who challenges them, but most people who challenge them are opposing over a few thousand dollars, so when paypal says "fine heres your money, but you sign this NDA first" people just take it as they know they have not the financial means to continue to peruse paypal. I on the other hand have a great legal team who actually to this point have refused to take any more money from me, and even if it gets to the point i need to pay, i can go toe to toe with paypal for a VERY long time as a result of all the wonderful life changes bitcoin has brought me.

paypal after all has not made a profit a single year in business yet, and the only thing keeping them afloat is ebays seller fees.

For the rest of you who want to repeat the same post over and over:

I am well aware paypal is probably following this thread with a fine tooth comb. But with that, they are also aware that i have thousands of people who want to take action too, and even though we cannot combine lawsuits into class action, they are aware that i am not going to stop and that even if i lose thousands of people from the bitcoin community alone are going to have someone to help them, and lead them into their own actions as a group. Not to mention how many people will stand up against paypals illegal actions once they know there is a group leading a charge against them that are not part of bitcoin.

In summary: The crime that has been allowed to continue for a decade now will stop here, and it will stop now. WE WILL TAKE A STAND even if i lose. you can silence one or two, but you cannot silence the masses.

I wish you luck buddy. I've lost out on 7BTC that I sold on eBay a few months ago. They revoked my paypal account and took my money. What I don't understand is if it's against the Paypal user agreement, why do they allow you to sell Bitcoin on eBay? Given that eBay owns Paypal. It makes no God Damn sense at all. It seems like they are willing to charge you seller's fees but not let you keep your hard earned money. That is fraud, plain and simple.

You never mentioned why Paypal suspended your account. I am assuming you were selling Bitcoin on eBay?

[TerraHasher]

Nope, never sold bitcoin, just mining hardware latley, tons of other stuff from computers to servers to custom cases for x-boxes that i made. As for paypal, they never gave a reason more than " it involves bitcoin and we dont like that as we consider bitcoin competition " or in summary as told by another manager there " We can hold your money for as long as we want and we dont have to give you a reason why because we put it in the user agreement " <--- which is a crime

[retrend]

The reason Paypal binds that arbitration is because they know that a lot of what they do is Illegal and if it ends up in a court room ( which is very very very very rare ) they just try and buy the prosecution off with a minimal stipens and slap them with an NDA. The difference here being, we are not just seeking compensatory and punitive damages. I do not have a "buy me off" value and will NOT be signing and NDA unless paypal is FULLY held accountable for their criminal actions.

This isnt about money, anybody who knows me personally knows that the bitcoin i hold is more than enough to live off for 4 lifetimes. Even if this entire lawsuit goes array, i have decided personally that here and now is the time paypal starts having to play by the rules, and if needed i will still continue to lead a massive movement against paypals criminal actions. Just in the bitcoin community alone i have been contacted by WELL over 1,500 people now who have almost the same experience with paypal.

Great to hear this is how you are approaching this.  Paypal have gotten away with their abuse of their power for far to long, all the best in your case.

[BitchicksHusband]

Giant run-on paragraph, TL;DR, attention-deficit is such a gyft

TL; DR:  He's suing Paypal for blocking ASIC miners.

[BitchicksHusband]

Paypal is full of BS, those clowns almost ruined our business. They automatically process chargebacks without investigation, customers order an item we deliver, customer claims item not received even with full tracking info and paypal just charge us without even looking at the tracking info. I hope they fall hard.
We have a new site just for bitcoins and it couldn't have been better.

What's the new site?

[DeboraMeeks]

Bitcoin is just a competitor of PayPal in it's main field,Online Money transfer and with fees that can't be compared to PayPal's. so any fight against PayPal should be in Bitcoin benefit I think.

[TerraHasher]

Giant run-on paragraph, TL;DR, attention-deficit is such a gyft

TL; DR:  He's suing Paypal for blocking ASIC miners.

No, I'm suing paypal for being criminals, it just so happens that one of the million BS excuses they gave me was because i was selling asic miners

[BitchicksHusband]

You can record what ever you want.  You just won't be able to use it in a court of law in some jurisdictions, thus the suggestion to record all calls and create transcripts of the calls in those states where two party consent is required.

Not true.  Even recording audio is a crime in many jurisdictions.  That's what cops are using against people recording them that they don't like.

[TerraHasher]

UPDATE: LETTER OF INTENT TO SUE HAS BEEN DELIVERED AND SIGNED FOR

The two week clock for them to resolve the issue starts tomorrow, which means if we do not have resolution by the 24th, its go time.

[Its About Sharing]

Much Luck here. This is going to be extremely interesting and perhaps set some precedent to other companies.

[Nightwatchman]

Best of luck, OP!

I've just spent a sleepless night (location: Down Under) fretting about a chargeback filed against me.

Not BTC related goods but the principles are the same.

The obfuscation in Paypal's e-mail communiques is criminal in itself.

It's interesting that Paypal is yet to turn a profit. They conduct themselves in an amateur way; when speaking with them on the phone there is a sense they're making it up as they go. Is Paypal simply a flawed business idea?

Go get 'em tiger!

[BitChick]

Wow.  This is really big!  It seems like the case is totally in OP's favor.  I don't know how a court of law could not see that, but of course the battle is just beginning here.

My question is what will the end result be?  Could this take down Paypal forever?  Will it help Bitcoin in the end?  Or will this just be one small step in keeping Paypal accountable for how they treat their customers?

[igorr]

With which payment options it is cheaper to pay the anything ?

1. Bitcoin ?
2. PayPal ?

[Kungfucheez]

What about all the people who use paypal everyday just fine? 

[TerraHasher]

What about all the people who use paypal everyday just fine? 

Oh yeah, we forgot about those 7 people. ummmmmm. well their day is coming i'm sure. Nobody gets away from paypal scott free unless they dont use their account or never sell anything.

[igorr]

What about all the people who use paypal everyday just fine?  

For me Paypal payment is much cheaper option of Bitcoin payment, about 5-10 %.
and Bitcoin is totally unsafe and unstable, today BTC price is 940 usd, and tomorrow can be 500 usd or zero !!!

[TerraHasher]

UPDATE

Hello all, and thank you for your support again, for personal reasons ( a very high intolerance to children who think that they have the world all figure out and can never be wrong as demonstrated here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406850.0 ) I have decided to leave Bitcointalk.org and stick to a forum that i use that is not so over run with trolls, and morons. Not saying that any of you on this thread are any of that, but outside of this thread it seems every single thread on this forum has the typical childish nonsense and you cant make or even read a topic without it. So i am throwing in the towel with it here. again nothing personal, i am just too old to have tolerance for such ignorance.

I am not going to leave all of you hanging none the less, as i have made many great friends through this forum over my short month or two here. so i am going to continue updating on this matter over at this link: https://www.bitcoinforum.com/bitcoin-discussion/bitcoin-vs-paypal-and-paypal-is-getting-sued/

Again, its nothing personal against any single individual... Well maybe a few, but i am just too old to have tolerance for the kid stuff.

So it is with a humble farewell that i end with my final goodbye. Thanks to all of you for your support thus far, it was really nice to know i wasn't alone in being done wrong by paypal.

[s1lverbox]

UPDATE

Hello all, and thank you for your support again, for personal reasons ( a very high intolerance to children who think that they have the world all figure out and can never be wrong as demonstrated here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406850.0 ) I have decided to leave Bitcointalk.org and stick to a forum that i use that is not so over run with trolls, and morons. Not saying that any of you on this thread are any of that, but outside of this thread it seems every single thread on this forum has the typical childish nonsense and you cant make or even read a topic without it. So i am throwing in the towel with it here. again nothing personal, i am just too old to have tolerance for such ignorance.

I am not going to leave all of you hanging none the less, as i have made many great friends through this forum over my short month or two here. so i am going to continue updating on this matter over at this link: https://www.bitcoinforum.com/bitcoin-discussion/bitcoin-vs-paypal-and-paypal-is-getting-sued/

Again, its nothing personal against any single individual... Well maybe a few, but i am just too old to have tolerance for the kid stuff.

So it is with a humble farewell that i end with my final goodbye. Thanks to all of you for your support thus far, it was really nice to know i wasn't alone in being done wrong by paypal.

Loads of bollocks about your fight with paypal just to advertise your own forum.
Your trust really says all.
And you want to win with paypal, when kids made u quit this forum?

Good job, in my eyes u just prove what a looser you are.

[shawshankinmate37927]

Please post an address for donations.

Hey guys, thanks for the support, I wasnt really looking for donations. The minute someone starts seeking money for something a conversation usually turns from being productive into a whole other conversations about "scam, rippoff, blah blah, troll some more etc." Im sure you get the idea. I will post an address for now for people who want to send donations for whatever, but i do have to re-state, as of now, the legal team is not charging me anything so donations would be more on principal than anything. Also if posting a donation address starts to take this thread off topic and in another direction, please understand that i will take down the address. I do not want this to turn into one of "those" threads.

Again, thank you all for your support, we are patiently awaiting confirmation from the post office that the letter has been delivered and signed for. I will be sure and update you all once that happens as that is when the 2 weeks to take action clock begins.

(also on a side note, i had one of our buyers get scared and back out on a Round 1 batch 2 ( march delivery) BA x-3 machine because of paypal freezing their funds as well for sending us payment through paypal. If anyone is interested i can contact BA and see if they will allow an address transfer or something if you want to buy it. Just message me)

Donation address: 1A8anGihV3pvHeuhqzGsAjt2S71WY2qea4

Why the sudden change of heart?  There was no issue with some poor woman using another BTC Addresse that you claim to control in this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406850.msg4417376#msg4417376

[Kouye]

two week

Scammer words.

More seriously, this sounds very fishy, and I would not advise anyone to join this alt forum.
At least do it with a completely different username/password/email.
If you do, please post any related Terrahash post back on this thread, too. 

[g35fan]

UPDATE

Hello all, and thank you for your support again, for personal reasons ( a very high intolerance to children who think that they have the world all figure out and can never be wrong as demonstrated here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406850.0 ) I have decided to leave Bitcointalk.org and stick to a forum that i use that is not so over run with trolls, and morons. Not saying that any of you on this thread are any of that, but outside of this thread it seems every single thread on this forum has the typical childish nonsense and you cant make or even read a topic without it. So i am throwing in the towel with it here. again nothing personal, i am just too old to have tolerance for such ignorance.

I am not going to leave all of you hanging none the less, as i have made many great friends through this forum over my short month or two here. so i am going to continue updating on this matter over at this link: https://www.bitcoinforum.com/bitcoin-discussion/bitcoin-vs-paypal-and-paypal-is-getting-sued/

Again, its nothing personal against any single individual... Well maybe a few, but i am just too old to have tolerance for the kid stuff.

So it is with a humble farewell that i end with my final goodbye. Thanks to all of you for your support thus far, it was really nice to know i wasn't alone in being done wrong by paypal.

Loads of bollocks about your fight with paypal just to advertise your own forum.
Your trust really says all.
And you want to win with paypal, when kids made u quit this forum?

Good job, in my eyes u just prove what a looser you are.

I second that. The nerve to actually post his wallet address for donations. This isn't a class action suite and you didn't even get billed by your legal "team" yet. Pft. Likely you'll never go to trial and he's just an emotional person who got their funds frozen by a processor which happens to 100's and 100's of people every single day. I'd be more than happy to apologize to the OP if he provides a docket # in the future but I have a feeling it's way less about btc than it is about getting his money...which he will, eventually, in 3-6 months time.

[Kungfucheez]

What about all the people who use paypal everyday just fine?  

Oh yeah, we forgot about those 7 people. ummmmmm. well their day is coming i'm sure. Nobody gets away from paypal scott free unless they dont use their account or never sell anything.

But you state in the first sentence of your original post that you've done "close to 1 million dollars in sales in the past year alone

Sorry if I have no sympathy for you, but it seems like paypal did pretty well for you

[TerraHasher]

Please post an address for donations.

Hey guys, thanks for the support, I wasnt really looking for donations. The minute someone starts seeking money for something a conversation usually turns from being productive into a whole other conversations about "scam, rippoff, blah blah, troll some more etc." Im sure you get the idea. I will post an address for now for people who want to send donations for whatever, but i do have to re-state, as of now, the legal team is not charging me anything so donations would be more on principal than anything. Also if posting a donation address starts to take this thread off topic and in another direction, please understand that i will take down the address. I do not want this to turn into one of "those" threads.

Again, thank you all for your support, we are patiently awaiting confirmation from the post office that the letter has been delivered and signed for. I will be sure and update you all once that happens as that is when the 2 weeks to take action clock begins.


Donation address: 1A8anGihV3pvHeuhqzGsAjt2S71WY2qea4

Thank you for the affirmation that i was making the right choice by leaving this forum, i almost felt bad for a minute. as you can clearly see above I DID NOT WANT TO DO ANY DONATION, and knowing the mentality of the kids on here knew exactly what was going to happen. Furthermore, i DO NOT OWN the other forum, i am just a moderator there, and as for the rest, it has nothing to do with emotions, its tolerance. I have a rather explosive personality and i have found it best just to stay away from people with childish mentalities who are in a fight for digital validation of their pathetic lives. With that, i bid you all farewell, and leave with a thank you to all of those who were true spporters.

[s1lverbox]

Please post an address for donations.

Hey guys, thanks for the support, I wasnt really looking for donations. The minute someone starts seeking money for something a conversation usually turns from being productive into a whole other conversations about "scam, rippoff, blah blah, troll some more etc." Im sure you get the idea. I will post an address for now for people who want to send donations for whatever, but i do have to re-state, as of now, the legal team is not charging me anything so donations would be more on principal than anything. Also if posting a donation address starts to take this thread off topic and in another direction, please understand that i will take down the address. I do not want this to turn into one of "those" threads.

Again, thank you all for your support, we are patiently awaiting confirmation from the post office that the letter has been delivered and signed for. I will be sure and update you all once that happens as that is when the 2 weeks to take action clock begins.


Donation address: 1A8anGihV3pvHeuhqzGsAjt2S71WY2qea4

Thank you for the affirmation that i was making the right choice by leaving this forum, i almost felt bad for a minute. as you can clearly see above I DID NOT WANT TO DO ANY DONATION, and knowing the mentality of the kids on here knew exactly what was going to happen. Furthermore, i DO NOT OWN the other forum, i am just a moderator there, and as for the rest, it has nothing to do with emotions, its tolerance. I have a rather explosive personality and i have found it best just to stay away from people with childish mentalities who are in a fight for digital validation of their pathetic lives. With that, i bid you all farewell, and leave with a thank you to all of those who were true spporters.

"...childish mentalities"- i think its you who have mentality like that.
ok, my mistake you don't own the forum but still advertising that.
JOKE should be your second name.
Ok, you said it once so just go to the other forum and stay there where unicorns jumping over the rainbow and all people loving each other.
Bitcointalk reality is to much for such "explosive personality" like you.

[hastalavista]

i dont get it - is this terrahasher aka bitcoinhasher now a scammer or not

[Kouye]

jaequery is most likely a "donation" scammer.
And she asks for donations to an address controlled by Terrahasher:
https://i.imgur.com/gbTCgWe.jpg

Also, Terrahasher:
- claims to be calm, but gets pissed as soon as he's busted
- claims to own 80k+ bitcoins and has a donation address in signature
- claims he's never been scammed, and still posts interesting screenshot with lots of useful data (could it be on purpose ?  )
- claims he has been in bitcoin world for 5 years and still thinks people actually type in each character of their bitcoin addresses when asking for donations (and thus can make typos...)

Kudos to shawshankinmate37927 for busting this guy.
100% scammer in my book.

[g35fan]

Thank you for the affirmation that i was making the right choice by leaving this forum, i almost felt bad for a minute. as you can clearly see above I DID NOT WANT TO DO ANY DONATION, and knowing the mentality of the kids on here knew exactly what was going to happen. Furthermore, i DO NOT OWN the other forum, i am just a moderator there, and as for the rest, it has nothing to do with emotions, its tolerance. I have a rather explosive personality and i have found it best just to stay away from people with childish mentalities who are in a fight for digital validation of their pathetic lives. With that, i bid you all farewell, and leave with a thank you to all of those who were true spporters.

Good riddance. This forum is better off without you and your childish antics. You said you didn't want donations yet you posted your wallet address. And now you abandon the thread and delete your first post...that emotional rant of a post that had no format and looked completely unprofessional. All the people you had no patience with and have "pathetic lives" as you put it, have been justified in their criticism of you by your actions. And to top it off it looks like you are just a scammer/beggar. Fitting.

One my favorite movie quotes may be appropriate for this dying thread:

"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." - Billy Madison

[Keyser Soze]

Well this thread sure did change quick.

[solex]

Was a great thread until someone threw the toys out of the pram.

[skivrmt]

jaequery is most likely a "donation" scammer.
And she asks for donations to an address controlled by Terrahasher:
https://i.imgur.com/gbTCgWe.jpg

Also, Terrahasher:
- claims to be calm, but gets pissed as soon as he's busted
- claims to own 80k+ bitcoins and has a donation address in signature
- claims he's never been scammed, and still posts interesting screenshot with lots of useful data (could it be on purpose ?  )
- claims he has been in bitcoin world for 5 years and still thinks people actually type in each character of their bitcoin addresses when asking for donations (and thus can make typos...)

Kudos to shawshankinmate37927 for busting this guy.
100% scammer in my book.

I'm not sure.  You bring up some excellent points.  But I honestly don't think its a scam.  He said he doesn't need donations and even admitted his attorney is taking anything up front.  I think this actually happened. 

Best thing to do is wait a couple of weeks and see if this gets a case number. 

[jballs]

jaequery is most likely a "donation" scammer.
And she asks for donations to an address controlled by Terrahasher:
https://i.imgur.com/gbTCgWe.jpg

Also, Terrahasher:
- claims to be calm, but gets pissed as soon as he's busted
- claims to own 80k+ bitcoins and has a donation address in signature
- claims he's never been scammed, and still posts interesting screenshot with lots of useful data (could it be on purpose ?  )
- claims he has been in bitcoin world for 5 years and still thinks people actually type in each character of their bitcoin addresses when asking for donations (and thus can make typos...)

Kudos to shawshankinmate37927 for busting this guy.
100% scammer in my book.

I'm not sure.  You bring up some excellent points.  But I honestly don't think its a scam.  He said he doesn't need donations and even admitted his attorney is taking anything up front.  I think this actually happened. 

Best thing to do is wait a couple of weeks and see if this gets a case number. 

Well that is proof positive he is lying. Attorneys pressing a case pro bono for a guy claims he is worth 80 mil?

No such attorneys on the planet but it was a good story I guess.

Not sure what the angle is, don't really care. Maybe just delusional pathological. 

[coiner92]

Looks like lots of people are mad. I don't like to be made mad.

[Rassah]

UPDATE

Hello all, and thank you for your support again, for personal reasons ( a very high intolerance to children who think that they have the world all figure out and can never be wrong as demonstrated here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406850.0 ) I have decided to leave Bitcointalk.org and stick to a forum that i use that is not so over run with trolls, and morons.

I would not have even suspected anything if you had not posted a link to that thread. So... thanks?

Regarding the case itself, if it happens, I suspect it will end up with Guy claiming to be screwed by PayPal V.S. PayPal claiming it was following government rules and regulations.  In a government court, I suspect the court will side with the one following government rules and regulations. This is why I'm an AnCap; companies can ask government to pass whatever regulations they want, and then claim they were just following the laws when they were doing rather unethical things (oil and chemical companies are experts at this)

[gortonc]

Well that is proof positive he is lying. Attorneys pressing a case pro bono for a guy claims he is worth 80 mil?

No such attorneys on the planet but it was a good story I guess.

Not sure what the angle is, don't really care. Maybe just delusional pathological. 

It may well be a scam, but if I read correctly he had his attorney on retainer. That simply means it is not costing him any more out of pocket. Kind of like a company having an attorney on staff. 

While it may be a scam, I suspect (and hope) that we are seeing yet another example of imperfect humanity--off to a good start but prone to stick our foot in our mouths. (Done it myself more than once.  )

[Dafar]

Is this OP?

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/01/10/ebay-merchant-sue-paypal-anti-bitcoin-policies/

[skivrmt]

Is this OP?

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/01/10/ebay-merchant-sue-paypal-anti-bitcoin-policies/

Well they quoted him so it's definitely OP!  But it still doesn't make it legit until we see a case number or docket number.

[Dafar]

Is this OP?

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/01/10/ebay-merchant-sue-paypal-anti-bitcoin-policies/

Well they quoted him so it's definitely OP!  But it still doesn't make it legit until we see a case number or docket number.

Lol at articles getting so desperate they will take news right out of forums... even if it's not confirmed

[BadPenny]

Lol at articles getting so desperate they will take news right out of forums... even if it's not confirmed

It's fucking sad...and increasingly the case with all journalism in general, particularly in the USA.

Anyone can write some racist/sexist/intolerant bullshit on an Applebee's receipt and post it on reddit.
Next thing you know, Good Morning America presents it as fact without, you know, knowing all of the fucking facts.

[MaZo360]

Pwned?

[Kungfucheez]

Lol at articles getting so desperate they will take news right out of forums... even if it's not confirmed

It's fucking sad...and increasingly the case with all journalism in general, particularly in the USA.

Anyone can write some racist/sexist/intolerant bullshit on an Applebee's receipt and post it on reddit.
Next thing you know, Good Morning America presents it as fact without, you know, knowing all of the fucking facts.

Thanks for generalizing my whole country. No one I know takes the news seriously when they spout dumb shit like that. It's called having your own opinion

[st4nl3y]

I like the video lol

[phirex]

Lol at articles getting so desperate they will take news right out of forums... even if it's not confirmed

It's fucking sad...and increasingly the case with all journalism in general, particularly in the USA.

Anyone can write some racist/sexist/intolerant bullshit on an Applebee's receipt and post it on reddit.
Next thing you know, Good Morning America presents it as fact without, you know, knowing all of the fucking facts.

Did you hear that Kim Jong Un fed his uncle to 120 starving dogs ??
Rumor started from a satirical tweet on Weibo..

[The Observer]

Ok, so i am new here and have been out of the bitcoin loop for quite a while now. But has the definition of scam changed in the past year when it comes to the bitcoin community? Last i thought, in order to be a scam, someone either had to have taken, or is trying to take something from someone without paying for it or in essence was stealing. It took me a while to read through all the posts in this thread, but CLEARLY the OP never asked for a penny from anyone, and as i read it only provided a donation address after a few people asked for it, and for that matter not a single penny was donated to that address as i can see unless i am looking it up wrong.

Also, after looking at the thread that finally pushed the OP over the edge, I hate to say it, but i would have been pretty pissed too, after about an hour of searching i could not find a single reference or post or even the slightest remnant of anything on reddit at all about the blog entry he was quoting or for that matter a single trace of any of what the troll was implying to be even remotely true.

I am no computer wiz, and defiantly not the most techie of people, but even i have the brains that if i wanted to seem cool bad enough i could post something on a blog, copy and paste someones address into it, then change the date and time that it displays when it was published then start to troll about it. I back date articles all the time on my blog that i didnt get around to publishing on the day the story was news, that way the date displayed and the date i am talking about in my articles match.

It may be just my opinion, but i am still entitled to one. I think a few of you went a little to far and jumped to conclusions a little to early, and worse chased off someone who seemed to contribute a lot of good information to this forum. It took me less than 2 minutes to find this thread with him helping dozens of people keep from getting scammed. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=399608.0

[Kouye]

and as i read it only provided a donation address after a few people asked for it, and for that matter not a single penny was donated to that address as i can see unless i am looking it up wrong.

Yeah, that was a fail. Thankfully.
The goal was just to get a few donations, from the start.
And as much as I hope to be proved wrong, there will be no such trial as described in OP.

http://uppix.com/f-hasher52d0a8c00015180e.png
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rvnrz/can_bitcoin_save_my_familys_christmas/

Awww, deleted? 

[The Observer]

Awww, deleted? 

Sorry i'm new to this, what was deleted? Are you talking about the post on reddit? i think it got removed for begging after reading through the comments. Which makes it seem even more fishey that someone is able to publish an article claiming to be the original.

[Kouye]

Sorry i'm new to this, what was deleted? Are you talking about the post on reddit? i think it got removed for begging after reading through the comments. Which makes it seem even more fishey that someone is able to publish an article claiming to be the original.

Your BTC, your choices. G'luck.

[The Observer]

?? is there something i am missing here ?? My BTC ? what? can someone please translate for me?

[Kouye]

?? is there something i am missing here ?? My BTC ? what? can someone please translate for me?

No, just send BTC to 13cJyLk1yQiJvQqWsMjT8BXhhjz8TQcMkr
It'll help getting paypal down!

Or not.

EDIT : made a typo in post, on purpose.

[evoked22]

TL;DR summary:  

PayPal has been putting holds on my accounts and preventing me from accessing my own funds because I am selling miners.  I think Paypal is doing this because they regard bitcoin as competition.

I am suing Paypal.

I agree. they are taking this way too far. Someone needs to remind them that they are not a bank and have no form of financial power apart from being a payment gateway.

They freeze peoples account, refunds purchases that favor the buyer rather than both parties and if anything more the seller.

I hope cryptocurrencies take them out. Worst organisation ever dealt with on the phone/email and overall.

[cp1]

Awww, deleted? 

Sorry i'm new to this, what was deleted? Are you talking about the post on reddit? i think it got removed for begging after reading through the comments. Which makes it seem even more fishey that someone is able to publish an article claiming to be the original.

Look at the image he posted.

[The Observer]

Please post an address for donations.

Hey guys, thanks for the support, I wasnt really looking for donations. The minute someone starts seeking money for something a conversation usually turns from being productive into a whole other conversations about "scam, rippoff, blah blah, troll some more etc." Im sure you get the idea. I will post an address for now for people who want to send donations for whatever, but i do have to re-state, as of now, the legal team is not charging me anything so donations would be more on principal than anything. Also if posting a donation address starts to take this thread off topic and in another direction, please understand that i will take down the address. I do not want this to turn into one of "those" threads.

Again, thank you all for your support, we are patiently awaiting confirmation from the post office that the letter has been delivered and signed for. I will be sure and update you all once that happens as that is when the 2 weeks to take action clock begins.

(also on a side note, i had one of our buyers get scared and back out on a Round 1 batch 2 ( march delivery) BA x-3 machine because of paypal freezing their funds as well for sending us payment through paypal. If anyone is interested i can contact BA and see if they will allow an address transfer or something if you want to buy it. Just message me)

Donation address: 1A8anGihV3pvHeuhqzGsAjt2S71WY2qea4

Um, your a little off on the address there mate, its back on like page 4 or 5.   Hence the reason i was questioning the troll's posts from the other thread. Never mind, i dont really care, i was just stating an observation in the first place. Just seems a lot of people jumped to conclusions a little too soon. as a matter of fact it seems the OP hit the nail right on the head, dosn't look like it took more than two days for the scam, ripoff, trolling stuff to start.

[Kouye]

Um, your a little off on the address there mate, its back on like page 4 or 5.   Hence the reason i was questioning the troll's posts from the other thread. Never mind, i dont really care, i was just stating an observation in the first place. Just seems a lot of people jumped to conclusions a little too soon. as a matter of fact it seems the OP hit the nail right on the head, dosn't look like it took more than two days for the scam, ripoff, trolling stuff to start.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406850.msg4415870#msg4415870

Look for the first one (13cJy...) on google and come back.
Again, credits to shawshankinmate37927.

[davida]

The Observer = TerraHasher

I'm 100% sure.

[Kungfucheez]

Please post an address for donations.

Hey guys, thanks for the support, I wasnt really looking for donations. The minute someone starts seeking money for something a conversation usually turns from being productive into a whole other conversations about "scam, rippoff, blah blah, troll some more etc." Im sure you get the idea. I will post an address for now for people who want to send donations for whatever, but i do have to re-state, as of now, the legal team is not charging me anything so donations would be more on principal than anything. Also if posting a donation address starts to take this thread off topic and in another direction, please understand that i will take down the address. I do not want this to turn into one of "those" threads.

Again, thank you all for your support, we are patiently awaiting confirmation from the post office that the letter has been delivered and signed for. I will be sure and update you all once that happens as that is when the 2 weeks to take action clock begins.

(also on a side note, i had one of our buyers get scared and back out on a Round 1 batch 2 ( march delivery) BA x-3 machine because of paypal freezing their funds as well for sending us payment through paypal. If anyone is interested i can contact BA and see if they will allow an address transfer or something if you want to buy it. Just message me)

Donation address: 1A8anGihV3pvHeuhqzGsAjt2S71WY2qea4

Um, your a little off on the address there mate, its back on like page 4 or 5.   Hence the reason i was questioning the troll's posts from the other thread. Never mind, i dont really care, i was just stating an observation in the first place. Just seems a lot of people jumped to conclusions a little too soon. as a matter of fact it seems the OP hit the nail right on the head, dosn't look like it took more than two days for the scam, ripoff, trolling stuff to start.

Because the OP doesn't have a case in the first place. That's why.

[kalus]

Before i go into too much detail, You read the title right. after 2 weeks, petitioning the SEC, FTC, IC3, NW3C, DOJ, and a hand full of state senators and other congress people for support.

I finally got a judge to allow me to file a lawsuit against PayPal, and after complying with the judges request that we send a letter of intent to sue them this week and giving them 2 weeks to reply or resolve the issues. We will be allowed to file a 4 MILLION dollar lawsuit against paypal, and the better news, although we cannot go class action, you still may be able to get in on the action too.

Now a little bit of the back story:

My wife and i both have been long time paypal users, in fact we have done close to 1 million dollars in sales through paypal in the past year alone. I cannot even begin to calculate how much in total over the 7-8 years we have used paypal. We have sold on ebay, sold on craigslist, sold on pretty much everywhere, and sold pretty much anything electronic for years. Never had a problem at all, and thats where bitcoin come in.

I started mining bitcoin a LONG time ago, near the beginning, and have rolled many a coin. In October when Bitcoin was at an all time high, i start doing some numbers, and seeing all these companies selling hardware for bitcoin, figured, well what the hell. i got a ton of it, and if i never use it its really worth nothing at all, so i order hundreds of USB miners, hundreds of blades, hundreds of anything i could confirm legit and take to ebay to join the club of "your and idiot and your going to pay me $695 for a V2 blade" sellers. its almost criminal how many i sold. I sold USB miners, the ever famous 200 GH/s avalon clone miners from china, you name it, i sold it if it was hardware. Never a complaint that resulted in a charge back, in fact the few complaints i got from buyers were pretty legit and dead hardware related, not only did they get their money back, but got a new miner as well. its good for business, and good for bitcoin.

In early december, now selling mainly only bitcoin hardware, out of nowhere i get a limitation on my paypal account. they want documents uploaded, photo ID, proof of address, invoices, what have you. most of it all stuff i had submitted already in the past. at the time they had held hostage, $33,600 3 days of going the rounds with paypal and the limit is raised.

My wife and i promptly transfer the funds out of the bank. Having a bad gut feeling, i contacted my legal team since i have had them on retainer for years and never used them much, and they tell me to just start keeping a record of everything, every phone call, every e-mail, the name of everyone i spoke with, every voicemail paypal left, pretty much everything. so i did, good thing too, the day after, surprise, they put a limit on our account again. right after 8 auctions closed and we had $71,000 and change in the account. same crap, we need ID, blah blah, so i call them, documenting everything, telling them that we already did this just a few days prior.

They get rude, start stumbling around when i keep drilling them as to why again when we already did, the supervisor puts me on hold for about 20 minutes, then comes back on the line and says " There has been a recent increase in activity from your account blah blah we need to wait for delivery conformation" now mind you, our account activity has greatly decreased as we have focused strictly on ebay, and only on bitcoin items. None the less, i document everything, 2 days later delivery confirmation is sent from the USPS tracking numbers.

The funds are released from Ebay, but still limits on the paypal account. So i grab the pen and paper to start taking notes, and call paypal. after going from customer service rep, to supervisor, to specialist, to team lead, then finally to manager over the course of 1 hour 30 minutes with nobody giving me any real information. I HIT GOLD, the manager states, your selling bitcoin. i politely reply, "no sir, i am not, that is against paypals rules, i am selling specialized hardware which is like a computer but designed for one purpose, and that is hashing on a SHA-256 encrypted network", He replies back, well its all the same and bitcoin is direct competition with paypals business model therefore we do not condone, anything bitcoin related. and wouldnt ya know it, smartphones have cool little apps that record phone calls, which i always do so i can take notes later on after the call for the lawsuit i was planning to file.

The next morning i called my lawyer and told him about it. at first he says "you did what? recorded them without their permission?" i said no, they were the ones who told me the call could be recorded or monitored, and i just wanted to make sure it was recorded right. He says, hold on one second please, switches lines, and calls paypals customer service number then 3 ways the call. not even 20 seconds into the call when it is getting ready to switch to a representative, presto there is the call recording disclosure.

Instantly he begins to laugh, and says, well ok, record them all then and we can transcribe them. Needless to say it took a few days and a few dozen threatening phone calls, but we got the funds un frozen. I figured, well that was fun, but back to business. here comes the kicker, 7 hours later i have only 2 auctions close for a total of $8,300 in total.

i print the labels, stop at UPS in the morning and drop off the miners, and before i could even get home. whamo account limitations again. i think to myself. you have to be kidding me, a company cannot suck this bad and still be in business. So i look at what they want this time, and all it says is check e-mail for additional required documentation. so i check our e-mail, and there is nothing at all. so back to the phone. again from CS rep, to sup, to lead to manager over the course of about an hour this time. then put on hold for 43 minutes, and the guy only check in once saying its going to be a few more minutes.

Then a lady ( real bitch of a woman ) gets on the phone and says "my name is blah blah, from the paypal high risk assessment department, we need invoices from your suppliers before we can release the funds, i tell her, "listen lady, we sent an invoice to you already last week for 10 times more machines than we have sold so far dont play that game with me" she then puts me on hold, and says oh, well there was a charge back on your account which needs to be settled before we can lift the hold. mind you i am sitting in front of the computer looking at my screen, not only do we have thousands in the account, but we have NEVER in years of selling had a charge back, and surely not any showing on our account now. So i ask, ok, who, where, when? we have thousands in our account, so unless everyone did a charge back at once, there is no way we are negative, i am looking at my balance now !!!! She says ok we will look into it and give you a call tomorrow. although not satisfied, i was tired, so i hung up. funny thing, 5 minutes later i refresh the page and the account is not limited an more.

This brings us to last week, we made it an entire week and 4 whole smooth transactions through ebay/paypal, not a problem, i had actually thanked my lawyer that monday for his help, and said, hope i dont need you again any time soon. That afternoon we had a few more auctions close. and same scenario, i leave UPS drive the 5 blocks home and in that time, our account gets limited, only of course after i send the merchandise. This time no prevail. $54,600usd frozen as of 12/30, dozens of calls, dozens of BS reasons why they did it, and no resolution option, it says check email for required documentation. By wednesday afternoon my legal team says O.K. this is where we step in, a company cannot hold peoples money hostage because they dont like bitcoin.

And the battle begins, their paralegals transcribe every phone call, copy every e-mail print every screen shot, copy hundreds of complaints from srew-paypal.com and paypal sucks.com. The start blasting it everywhere, writing senators, congress people, filing complaints with the DOJ, the FTC, the IC3, the NW3C everybody pretty much, at the same time the file a petition with the court for a ruling on letting us Sue them in court. The next day the court throws it out.

Then friday comes, and my lawyer calls and says " you have 20 minutes, we need to be at the courthouse" i didnt know what to think, they really didnt either. we get there and this sweet little old lady takes us to a room behind the courtroom and the judge was there. he pulls out a folder from his desk drawer about 3 inches thick it is filled with sheets of paper, and little pick pieces of paper, he then turns his phone around and it is flashing the number 34 on it, as in 34 voice mails. He says "you sure know how to ruin a mans weekend, i dont know who you talked to, but i want to see all of you in my courtroom on monday morning and i will rule on your petition.

For a minute, i really thought i was going to be in some trouble. The lawyers said this is either going to be really bad, or really good, imagine how my weekend was spent this weekend. This morning we arrive 30 minutes early at the court house and the room had like 15 people in it. The judge comes in, sits down, and says " Send them a letter of intent to sue, request that they reply within 2 weeks, if they do not resolve the issue, or reply, i will see this case in my courtroom" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guess whos going to sue paypal. letter of intent gets sent in the morning via US certified mail. Paypal starts to bully bitcoin AND BITCOIN BITES BACK

Now, how does this affect you? well in a lot of ways. 1: if we win, paypal could lose their right to accept credit cards, and face it, what is paypal without credit cards? 2: what is bitcoin without paypal? simple EVERYTHING  in terms of funds transfer and commerce. and finally....

3: have you been wronged by paypal yourself? do you have a well documented history of being held hostage by paypal? Well, we now have a pretty good process for you to get revenge, and i am going to start a website that tells you how to do it whether we win or lose in court. In the mean time remember these steps because documentation is everything.

1: take screen shots, make sure your clock is showing the date and time in the picture. anything they put on the resolution center page

2: always print EVERY email. get a folder, a real paper folder, print them and file them, sorted by date.

3: ALWAYS record every phone call, even if your state wont let you use it in court. it is not illegal to transcribe a call. so record it, then get a free software that does text to speech and let it transcribe the call for you. once done PRINT IT and save it. Record the time of the call and the date.

4: If you have to deal in fiat for the time being try and avoid paypal.

5: be sure and keep all your interactions filed neatly, sooner or later you are going to need to file a formal complaint with SEVERAL agencies, authorities, regulatory bodies, and eventually draft a letter of intent to sue.

And there you have it, Hopefully paypal gets everything they deserve in court. How dare they start commiting white collar crimes against people who are "associated with bitcoin"

Bitcoin vs. Paypal

[/b]

and bitcoin is going to win

Sorry I just had to split the huge wall into parts.

Your story sounded like what happened to me with PayPal. But I didn't sue. I wished I did now.

it's interesting that his lawyer would tell him it was ok to post this on the internet. 

[Nightwatchman]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

[razorfishsl]

Whilst I am no fan of PayPal , I think we have to look at it from their point of view.

Consider back to Jan 2013 or just before, when we know of at least two companies that were taking the piss out of paypal/Creditcard payments on bitcoin hardware.
The paypal exposure must easily have been in excess of $10,000,000.

Look back at all the people who were having to try and attempt to reverse transactions because certain companies  made refunds difficult, and look at the number of F*** feast companies since then offering hardware, some made good on the promises, many did not.

I can see why google wants to see invoices to ensure at least there is expenditure going on actual hardware, I don't think it is because  Paypal wants to kill bitcoin,  we only have to look at the size of some of the operations to see that these guys don't use PP to buy their kit.

Not everything is a conspiracy, and if  a big ass payment company wanted to shut things down, they don't need to fuck about with such a shitty little amount, just go use the lobbyists they pay millions to and do it at source….

[The Observer]

Um, your a little off on the address there mate, its back on like page 4 or 5.   Hence the reason i was questioning the troll's posts from the other thread. Never mind, i dont really care, i was just stating an observation in the first place. Just seems a lot of people jumped to conclusions a little too soon. as a matter of fact it seems the OP hit the nail right on the head, dosn't look like it took more than two days for the scam, ripoff, trolling stuff to start.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406850.msg4415870#msg4415870

Look for the first one (13cJy...) on google and come back.
Again, credits to shawshankinmate37927.

Ahhh, Ok, that makes much more sense now. Thanks Kouye! i knew i had to be getting lost in translation somewhere, thanks for taking the time to clear it up for me. 

[BitChick]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

We were all blinded by the excitement of Paypal getting their due reward I think!

[Kungfucheez]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

We were all blinded by the excitement of Paypal getting their due reward I think!

I like paypal  It works just fine for me

[The Observer]

The Observer = TerraHasher

I'm 100% sure.

Hahahahahahahahahaha Missed this one the first time around, Really? 100% for sure are you now? I hope you never take up gambling as a hobby.

[Nightwatchman]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

We were all blinded by the excitement of Paypal getting their due reward I think!

I like paypal  It works just fine for me

Don't tempt fate... once you've seen the dark side of Paypal you reassess the idea of having them as part of your life.

[The Observer]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

We were all blinded by the excitement of Paypal getting their due reward I think!

I like paypal  It works just fine for me

Don't tempt fate... once you've seen the dark side of Paypal you reassess the idea of having them as part of your life.

Amen to that Nightwatchman, I used paypal just fine for like 2 years, then about 5 months ago they froze $300 that a friend sent to me for selling him my old x-box 360 and i still cant get the money out. It seems that sooner or later everyone is going to get stung by them.

[retrend]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

We were all blinded by the excitement of Paypal getting their due reward I think!

I made a post hours before he was revealed as a scam wishing him the best of luck.  Strong judge of character I am.

[The Observer]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

We were all blinded by the excitement of Paypal getting their due reward I think!

I made a post hours before he was revealed as a scam wishing him the best of luck.  Strong judge of character I am.

I dont think that he was "revealed" a scam, i think it was just people accusing him of being a scam so dont feel too bad i'm still following it myself on that other site. So i must be the worst judge of character in history. Of course according to the guy half way up the page. I am him so maybe its not so bad. ROFLMAO

[jballs]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

We were all blinded by the excitement of Paypal getting their due reward I think!

I made a post hours before he was revealed as a scam wishing him the best of luck.  Strong judge of character I am.

I dont think that he was "revealed" a scam, i think it was just people accusing him of being a scam so dont feel too bad i'm still following it myself on that other site. So i must be the worst judge of character in history. Of course according to the guy half way up the page. I am him so maybe its not so bad. ROFLMAO

well since you refuted it up there and came back down here to refute it again... and even invoked the bold "roflmao"... I would have to put my money on you are indeed a sock puppet.

OP is a scammer anyone who reads the thread will figure that out. Don't feel bad if you got taken, there was no obvious angle from the get go, just a pathological liar doing what pathological liars do. Can't distrust everybody all the time, though it may help in bitcoin world to start there and work backwards.

Later terrahasher/Observer/Lady-who-doth-protest-too-much...

[The Observer]

If the OP is not legit, I must admit to have been taken in.

We were all blinded by the excitement of Paypal getting their due reward I think!

I made a post hours before he was revealed as a scam wishing him the best of luck.  Strong judge of character I am.

I dont think that he was "revealed" a scam, i think it was just people accusing him of being a scam so dont feel too bad i'm still following it myself on that other site. So i must be the worst judge of character in history. Of course according to the guy half way up the page. I am him so maybe its not so bad. ROFLMAO

well since you refuted it up there and came back down here to refute it again... and even invoked the bold "roflmao"... I would have to put my money on you are indeed a sock puppet.

OP is a scammer anyone who reads the thread will figure that out. Don't feel bad if you got taken, there was no obvious angle from the get go, just a pathological liar doing what pathological liars do. Can't distrust everybody all the time, though it may help in bitcoin world to start there and work backwards.

Later terrahasher/Observer/Lady-who-doth-protest-too-much...

Lol, so were back on that again are we? One makes an observation and instantly he is the OP. I never refuted anything other than facts that i could see as a new comer to the thread. Mainly i have yet to hear anyone say they got ripped off by the OP, or for that matter anyone who has claimed that he solicited Bitcoin from them. You can think whatever you want to think, just as i can observe what i want to observe. If we draw two different sets of conclusions then so be it. Personally i find your conspiracy theory logic entertaining, so at this point i find myself compelled to troll you more so than argue with you anymore just for some comedy.

[Rassah]

You know your IP address is visible to the mods, right? Just a heads up.

[The Observer]

You know your IP address is visible to the mods, right? Just a heads up.

I'm assume you are talking to me, and i fail to see what that has to do with anything? If you are trying to imply that my IP is the same as the OP then your way out on a limb which is soon to break. But i applaud your conspiracy theory mentality.

“Conspiracy theory is the ultimate refuge of the powerless. If you cannot change your own life, it must be that some greater force controls the world.”

- Roger Cohen

[jballs]

You know your IP address is visible to the mods, right? Just a heads up.

I'm assume you are talking to me, and i fail to see what that has to do with anything? If you are trying to imply that my IP is the same as the OP then your way out on a limb which is soon to break. But i applaud your conspiracy theory mentality.

“Conspiracy theory is the ultimate refuge of the powerless. If you cannot change your own life, it must be that some greater force controls the world.”

- Roger Cohen

Hey Terrobserverhasher,

I've grown accustomed to trolls and scammers over the years, dime a dozen online for sure. But I wonder what the point is. You're obviously a pretty smart guy, why not join the ranks of the non-trolls and do something productive/constructive with your life? In the end nobody is going to give a shit, whether you hoodwinked a bunch of strangers or not, you aren't going to make a decent living hustling people in the long run, all you are doing is finding some temporary fix for your ego and that isn't going to solve any of your problems aside from make you feel better until you have to do it all over again.

Ditch the self-induced mindfuck, grow up and learn to be a man. Do something worth remembering, be a decent human being and make the world a better place.

(I'm henceforth placing you on my ignore list, so no need to respond),

[Rassah]

I'm assume you are talking to me

Yes I was. My intent was not conspiracy or to imply anything, as I have no proof of anything one way or the other. It was only to solicit a response from you, which in itself would tell me more. Thank you. (I am now 55% sure you are not Terrahasher. Suggest you abandon this thread to build up your identity separately elsewhere.)

[Tirapon]

You know your IP address is visible to the mods, right? Just a heads up.

I'm assume you are talking to me, and i fail to see what that has to do with anything? If you are trying to imply that my IP is the same as the OP then your way out on a limb which is soon to break. But i applaud your conspiracy theory mentality.

“Conspiracy theory is the ultimate refuge of the powerless. If you cannot change your own life, it must be that some greater force controls the world.”

- Roger Cohen

Hey Terrobserverhasher,

I've grown accustomed to trolls and scammers over the years, dime a dozen online for sure. But I wonder what the point is. You're obviously a pretty smart guy, why not join the ranks of the non-trolls and do something productive/constructive with your life? In the end nobody is going to give a shit, whether you hoodwinked a bunch of strangers or not, you aren't going to make a decent living hustling people in the long run, all you are doing is finding some temporary fix for your ego and that isn't going to solve any of your problems aside from make you feel better until you have to do it all over again.

Ditch the self-induced mindfuck, grow up and learn to be a man. Do something worth remembering, be a decent human being and make the world a better place.

(I'm henceforth placing you on my ignore list, so no need to respond),

Haven't been following the thread, so I don't know who is who's sock puppet, but what a great post from jballs.