Why do people think income tax is ok?

[Elwar]

I think all tax are wrong. But what can we do? 

Crowdfund.

We already do crowdfund; it's called paying taxes.

Crowdfunding is voluntary.

I think slavery wrong. But what can we do? 

Employment.

We already do employment; it's called slavery.

I understand that you probably feel that force is the best solution, you are solidly among the majority in that thought, but it does not have to be that way.

[guybrushthreepwood]

I think all tax are wrong. But what can we do? 

Crowdfund.

We already do crowdfund; it's called paying taxes.

Crowdfunding is voluntary.

I think slavery wrong. But what can we do? 

Employment.

We already do employment; it's called slavery.

I understand that you probably feel that force is the best solution, you are solidly among the majority in that thought, but it does not have to be that way.

Paying taxes is voluntary as I've already explained above. Somebody else in another thread recently explained why this voluntary crowd-funding wont work, and I can't be arsed explaining why, but paying taxes is already 'voluntary crowd-funding' any way. Nobody is forcing you to pay anything, but if they got rid of taxes, there'd be many many people choosing not to pay them and everyone would suffer as result.

And it's not slavery because you're not being forced to work or pay tax, and the fact that you think you are being enslaved by this is offensive to the victims of actual slavery. Get over yourself with this big bad government rhetoric. You're probably just another cheapskate who doesn’t pay or want to pay any taxes yet is fine taking all the services they provide for free.

[Elwar]

Paying taxes is voluntary as I've already explained above. Somebody else in another thread recently explained why this voluntary crowd-funding wont work, and I can't be arsed explaining why, but paying taxes is already 'voluntary crowd-funding' any way. Nobody is forcing you to pay anything, but if they got rid of taxes, there'd be many many people choosing not to pay them and everyone would suffer as result.

And it's not slavery because you're not being forced to work or pay tax, and the fact that you think you are being enslaved by this is offensive to the victims of actual slavery. Get over yourself with this big bad government rhetoric. You're probably just another cheapskate who doesn’t pay or want to pay any taxes yet is fine taking all the services they provide for free.

Paying taxes is certainly not voluntary. Just because slaves could run away or kill themselves to not be slaves does not mean that slavery was voluntary.

You are on the wrong side of history choosing force over freedom. Just as slavery was perfectly acceptable and justified lest everyone suffer as a result.

No, I do not want to pay taxes. Under threat of kidnapping I pay my taxes. I do not ask for services, I constantly vote against spending. I no longer live in the US yet I still must follow the US tax code.

[guybrushthreepwood]

Paying taxes is voluntary as I've already explained above. Somebody else in another thread recently explained why this voluntary crowd-funding wont work, and I can't be arsed explaining why, but paying taxes is already 'voluntary crowd-funding' any way. Nobody is forcing you to pay anything, but if they got rid of taxes, there'd be many many people choosing not to pay them and everyone would suffer as result.

And it's not slavery because you're not being forced to work or pay tax, and the fact that you think you are being enslaved by this is offensive to the victims of actual slavery. Get over yourself with this big bad government rhetoric. You're probably just another cheapskate who doesn’t pay or want to pay any taxes yet is fine taking all the services they provide for free.

Paying taxes is certainly not voluntary. Just because slaves could run away or kill themselves to not be slaves does not mean that slavery was voluntary.

You are on the wrong side of history choosing force over freedom. Just as slavery was perfectly acceptable and justified lest everyone suffer as a result.

No, I do not want to pay taxes. Under threat of kidnapping I pay my taxes. I do not ask for services, I constantly vote against spending. I no longer live in the US yet I still must follow the US tax code.

It is voluntary. Have you read my above arguments?

I suppose your boss is a slave master, and makes you get up early in the morning and forces you to work for him, right? You don't have a choice, right? You do have a choice. A slave does not.

And if you pay taxes then you are supporting them and making yourself their Bitch. Stop paying their wages then. If you choose to play their game by their rules in their system then you cannot complain because you voluntarily chose to play and can quit the game any time you wish, you just choose not to.

[bitlancr]

It is voluntary. Have you read my above arguments?

I suppose your boss is a slave master, and makes you get up early in the morning and forces you to work for him, right? You don't have a choice, right? You do have a choice. A slave does not.

And if you pay taxes then you are supporting them and making yourself their Bitch. Stop paying their wages then. If you choose to play their game by their rules in their system then you cannot complain because you voluntarily chose to play and can quit the game any time you wish, you just choose not to.

Being raped is voluntary. To avoid rape, you either:

a) never leave your house;
b) make sure the rapists don't spot you.

See how ridiculous your argument is now?

[guybrushthreepwood]

It is voluntary. Have you read my above arguments?

I suppose your boss is a slave master, and makes you get up early in the morning and forces you to work for him, right? You don't have a choice, right? You do have a choice. A slave does not.

And if you pay taxes then you are supporting them and making yourself their Bitch. Stop paying their wages then. If you choose to play their game by their rules in their system then you cannot complain because you voluntarily chose to play and can quit the game any time you wish, you just choose not to.

Being raped is voluntary. To avoid rape, you either:

a) never leave your house;
b) make sure the rapists don't spot you.

See how ridiculous your argument is now?

Rape is not voluntary. Your argument is absolutely ridiculous, not mine.

[bitlancr]

I was drawing an analogy between your argument and the one I made up above. I'm not actually claiming that rape is voluntary...

Hate to resort to ad-hominems, but please, educate yourself.

[guybrushthreepwood]

I was drawing an analogy between your argument and the one I made up above. I'm not actually claiming that rape is voluntary...

Hate to resort to ad-hominems, but please, educate yourself.

And the analogy is not a valid one.

What do I need to educate myself on exactly?

[bitlancr]

OK, I'll explain this in detail.

You claim tax is voluntary because it can be avoided - or logically speaking - if something can be avoided, it is voluntary. Let's call this proposition P.

Rape can be avoided by staying in your house your whole life. So by logical inference on P, rape is voluntary. Let's call this result Q.

We both agree that Q is absurd. Therefore, assuming the other premises are sound, P must be false.

In summary, the basis of your argument (P) is false, so your argument is invalid. Tax is involuntary.



I genuinely hope this helps. If not, I'd suggest some reading on the rules of logic.

[shawshankinmate37927]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to confuse you, but you kept answering a question that I wasn't asking.  I was just clarifying a simple, straight-forward question.  I was asking about not paying taxes when a tax obligation has been incurred and the taxer is aware that you have incurred a tax obligation.  Of course you can avoid incurring a tax obligation, or take measures to prevent the taxer from realizing that a tax obligation has been incurred, but that isn't the same as refusing to pay a tax.

You didn't confuse me, but nice try. And why were you asking such a ridiculously stupid question? That's like saying the government is forcing you to not commit murder, yet they are because they'll come and arrest you with guns when you’ve committed the crime of murder. Idiotic proposition.

You are still very confused.  I wasn't making a proposition.  I was asking a simple question in response to your proposition.  Only an idiot would struggle with such a simple question.

[guybrushthreepwood]

OK, I'll explain this in detail.

You claim tax is voluntary because it can be avoided - or logically speaking - if something can be avoided, it is voluntary. Let's call this proposition P.

Rape can be avoided by staying in your house your whole life. So by logical inference on P, rape is voluntary. Let's call this result Q.

We both agree that Q is absurd. Therefore, assuming the other premises are sound, P must be false.

In summary, the basis of your argument (P) is false, so your argument is invalid. Tax is involuntary.

I genuinely hope this helps. If not, I'd suggest some reading on the rules of logic.

That's not my logic and yours is not relevant to this regardless of how you want to spin it.

And rape cannot be avoided by staying in your house. You can be raped from within the house, or somebody can break in, but this is irrelevant because being raped and paying or not paying taxes are completely different. I don't know why we're even comparing rape and slavery to wilfully paying or not paying taxes /being in un/employment.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to confuse you, but you kept answering a question that I wasn't asking.  I was just clarifying a simple, straight-forward question.  I was asking about not paying taxes when a tax obligation has been incurred and the taxer is aware that you have incurred a tax obligation.  Of course you can avoid incurring a tax obligation, or take measures to prevent the taxer from realizing that a tax obligation has been incurred, but that isn't the same as refusing to pay a tax.

You didn't confuse me, but nice try. And why were you asking such a ridiculously stupid question? That's like saying the government is forcing you to not commit murder, yet they are because they'll come and arrest you with guns when you’ve committed the crime of murder. Idiotic proposition.

You are still very confused.  I wasn't making a proposition.  I was asking a simple question in response to your proposition.  Only an idiot would struggle with such a simple question.

Only an idiot would ask such a stupid question, but I guess you like trolling, right? Your original question was What does happen when you don't pay taxes? and I answered that several times in almost every possible permutation. I even answered the stupid question of what happens when you don't pay taxes that you owe, but that's obvious, just like saying what will happen when you murder somebody.

[davedx]

Ahhh, the complexities of the social contract. 

[countryfree]

Please stop with the idea that income tax is voluntary.
It's correct to say that you don't pay tax if you live in the streets spending your days begging and farting, but for normal people living a normal working life, there's no choice.

[guybrushthreepwood]

Please stop with the idea that income tax is voluntary.
It's correct to say that you don't pay tax if you live in the streets spending your days begging and farting, but for normal people living a normal working life, there's no choice.

There's always a choice. You can live a comfortable and worry-free existence without paying taxes and have a roof over your head. And I don't know what you mean by 'normal'? The brainwashed materialistic naive masses who think that it has to be this way and that you must conform as there's no other option normal?

[Mike Christ]

Please stop with the idea that income tax is voluntary.
It's correct to say that you don't pay tax if you live in the streets spending your days begging and farting, but for normal people living a normal working life, there's no choice.

There's always a choice. You can live a comfortable and worry-free existence without paying taxes and have a roof over your head. And I don't know what you mean by 'normal'? The brainwashed materialistic naive masses who think that it has to be this way and that you must conform as there's no other option normal?

Are you just trying to pump your post count to get the ad reward or are you serious?  Even the most ardent statists will tell you that taxation is not voluntary; it's not supposed to be, and that's how they like it.  You're either very confused or really need to keep posting nonsense for your sig.

[Kouye]

Another, completely opposite approach, would be to forget about taxes, and just pay for what you use + related projects tied to it (which you voted for).

For example:

You enjoy using the airport close to your home, you pay to maintain it each time you use it. But you also pay for a second related layer that all other users (including you) have decided to tie (by BTC-voting) to airport taxes. Such as space exploration, transport innovation, etc.

You are reassured by this excellent hospital in your vinicity, everytime you need to use it, you pay to maintain it, and also pay for related stuff (which you voted for), such as doctors in hostile zones, free medecines for poor people, etc.

You fancy that nice highway to get to your job quickly? You pay when you use it, and it covers both the price to maintain it, and also maintain/create new roads in the countryside, because you decided to vote for that related project.

I'm just thinking aloud, don't mind me.

[guybrushthreepwood]

Please stop with the idea that income tax is voluntary.
It's correct to say that you don't pay tax if you live in the streets spending your days begging and farting, but for normal people living a normal working life, there's no choice.

There's always a choice. You can live a comfortable and worry-free existence without paying taxes and have a roof over your head. And I don't know what you mean by 'normal'? The brainwashed materialistic naive masses who think that it has to be this way and that you must conform as there's no other option normal?

Are you just trying to pump your post count to get the ad reward or are you serious?  Even the most ardent statists will tell you that taxation is not voluntary; it's not supposed to be, and that's how they like it.  You're either very confused or really need to keep posting nonsense for your sig.

Ah, the old you're only posting because of your sig approach. Petty. I would argue this all day regardless of a sig deal and regardless of what you may or may not think.

Taxation is voluntary. You're confused if you think you have no other option than to pay it. I suppose if you play a game of Monopoly you're forced to go to jail and pay fines, right? Yes, if you play the game, but nobody is forcing you, you can quit any time, nor do you even have to start playing the game in the first place, but if you want to keep arguing with me and 'pumping up my postcount' so be it. What's your reason for posting nonsense?

[guybrushthreepwood]

People voluntarily hold bitcoins despite being 'raped' by miners who brutally tax all the holders with an inflating supply.

If you choose to allow yourself to be 'raped' willingly then it's not rape. You're not forced to use Bitcoin. Why don't you create a coin that is free to use for all and see how many miners help you out then?

[PrintMule]

Taxation is voluntary. You're confused if you think you have no other option than to pay it. I suppose if you play a game of Monopoly you're forced to go to jail and pay fines, right? Yes, if you play the game, but nobody is forcing you, you can quit any time, nor do you even have to start playing the game in the first place, but if you want to keep arguing with me and 'pumping up my postcount' so be it. What's your reason for posting nonsense?

It's not voluntary. You buy something in the shop - you pay tax. You get your salary - you pay tax automatically. There's no option of not paying tax. Quitting the game = suicide?

Not starting the game = ? Self-abortion from inside the womb?

Another, completely opposite approach, would be to forget about taxes, and just pay for what you use + related projects tied to it (which you voted for).

For example:

You enjoy using the airport close to your home, you pay to maintain it each time you use it. But you also pay for a second related layer that all other users (including you) have decided to tie (by BTC-voting) to airport taxes. Such as space exploration, transport innovation, etc.

You are reassured by this excellent hospital in your vinicity, everytime you need to use it, you pay to maintain it, and also pay for related stuff (which you voted for), such as doctors in hostile zones, free medecines for poor people, etc.

You fancy that nice highway to get to your job quickly? You pay when you use it, and it covers both the price to maintain it, and also maintain/create new roads in the countryside, because you decided to vote for that related project.

I've always had similar thinking. I do not want my tax money to be spent on X Y an Z. We should have an online system, where people could distribute their tax money, at least 50% of that tax money. And the government should be LOBBYING YOU to distribute money to their liking.

[guybrushthreepwood]

Taxation is voluntary. You're confused if you think you have no other option than to pay it. I suppose if you play a game of Monopoly you're forced to go to jail and pay fines, right? Yes, if you play the game, but nobody is forcing you, you can quit any time, nor do you even have to start playing the game in the first place, but if you want to keep arguing with me and 'pumping up my postcount' so be it. What's your reason for posting nonsense?

It's not voluntary. You buy something in the shop - you pay tax. You get your salary - you pay tax automatically. There's no option of not paying tax. Quitting the game = suicide?

EDIT: not starting the game = ? Self-abortion from inside the womb?

Buying the TV is voluntary. You're not forced to buy one. And if you want a TV buy a secondhand one. Either don't earn any money or chose a job that pays under the tax threshold or move to place with no income taxes. You're not taxed as child from the womb. Quitting the game is not suicide. Quit the rat-race and playing their game by their rules. You willingly choose to live this life and you can choose to get out of it without suicide, but of course, people want to live in their comfy houses in-front of their big TVs whilst pretending to be anarchists and moaning at the government, yet they willingly pay their wages. Up to you what you do. You are not forced. You willingly give this money up. You can willingly and legally refuse to pay it as well. You can't have it both ways unless you want to break the law, but that is also your choice.