Discussion between SolidCoin Founder and Gavin Andresen

[csshih]

http://www.incoherentphotography.com/uploads/2011.09.04-07.17.48.txt

quite interesting, have a look.

the main highlights, hopefully I didn't take anything out of context. I wouldn't like to start sounding like a generic media outlet.
I'm not cherry picking if I include the fulltext, right? 

Code:

[06:35] <gavinandresen> Hey everybody.  Is RealSolid here?
[06:35] <@RealSolid> in my lucid moments
[06:36] <gavinandresen> So you asked in private message on the forums why you should report denial-of-service vulnerabilities to Jeff or me....
[06:36] <gavinandresen> ... and I thought that would be obvious.
[06:36] <gavinandresen> You seem to be upset with us for some reason-- did I say something somewhere to offend you or solidcoin?
[06:37] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: no not you but your other developers
[06:37] <gavinandresen> Well, I can't speak for the other developers, but I personally would appreciate it if you let me know of any vulnerabilities or deficiencies in bitcoin.
[06:38] <gavinandresen> No software is perfect, and bitcoin is way-very-far from perfect.
[06:38] <@RealSolid> i know that, having changed a lot of it
[06:39] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: the SC network was attacked by one of your supporters/developers
[06:39] <@RealSolid> in artforz
[06:39] <@RealSolid> now someone is doing the same attack to btc
[06:40] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but the issue i found is more relating to being able to potentially crash clients and run them out of memory
[06:41] <gavinandresen> ArtForz isn't a bitcoin developer.  He is very smart, though, and you should listen to him (he helped find a couple of nasty bitcoin bugs last year)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: so youre promoting his attack on the network
[06:42] <gavinandresen> No.  He should have done what he did on the solidcoin test network.
[06:42] <gavinandresen> (you do have a test network, right?)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> sure if anyone runs it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but he didnt do it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> and your support of a hacker is interesting
[06:43] <@RealSolid> "no he shouldnt have done it , but boys will be boys come on"
[06:44] <gavinandresen> Hackers and script-kiddies are a fact of life, which is exactly why I'm asking you to let me know when you find potential issues.  So we have a chance to fix them before the hackers take advantage of them.
[06:44] <@RealSolid> csshih: hes essentially supporting a known hacker who has caused chaos for thousands of people
[06:45] <@RealSolid> artforz did it mainly just to piss of solidcoin users
[06:45] <@RealSolid> and i find the developer of bitcoin semi-supporting him by telling me to "listen to him
[06:45] <@RealSolid> as rather offensive
[06:45] <gavinandresen> You should listen to ArtForz, as I said he's very smart.
[06:46] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: ok you should listen to him too then, get him to fix your bugs
[06:47] <@RealSolid> if gavin wants to come here to tell me to listen to a blackhat hacker
[06:47] <@RealSolid> he is trying to be offensive
[06:47] <gavinandresen> Ok, this is silly, I don't want to get dragged into "you're supporting a KNOWN TERRORIST!"
[06:48] <gavinandresen> I came here to ask RealSolid to be responsible and report problems or vulnerabilities to the core bitcoin dev team before releasing code that fixes the exploit (because releasing code tells the hackers what to attack).  RealSolid, I'll ask again:  are you willing to do that?
[06:49] <@RealSolid> you ask me to be responsible when your team and supporters are hacking the SC network
[06:49] <gavinandresen> They aren't "my" supporters.  It is not even really "my" team
[06:49] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: if they arent, then i dont understand your tone, maybe youre ignorant about the situation
[06:49] <gavinandresen> (and did Pieter or Jeff or Nils do somethign to solidcoin?)
[06:51] <@RealSolid> we're drama queens
[06:52] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: we've had 2 weeks of many of your developers trashing solidcoin
[06:52] <@RealSolid> and then weve had some of your biggest supporters hacking/exploiting/spamming the networtk
[06:52] <@RealSolid> for you to come in completely ignorant and tell me to listen to the main hacker
[06:52] <@RealSolid> annoys me
[06:53] <@RealSolid> so either you pull the people in line who are supporting you and your project or i dont help your project
[06:53] <@RealSolid> i dont appreciate your people attacking us
[06:53] <gavinandresen> If you watch the talk I gave at the bitcoin conference a couple of weeks ago, I say my #1 qualification for being the project lead is having a thick skin
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i dont understand how you can come here completely ignorant about the last 2 weeks
[06:54] <gavinandresen> My advice to you if you want solidcoin to be a success is to step away from the keyboard when you're annoyed.
[06:54] <@RealSolid> its like you were living in cave
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: SC will be a success because i know how to develop successful products
[06:55] <@RealSolid> am i the one asking bitcoin developers for help?
[06:55] <@RealSolid> gavin is here asking me for help
[06:55] <@RealSolid> and he is being offensive in the process
[06:56] <@RealSolid> csshih: artforz is the known hacker, there are others
[06:56] <@RealSolid> gavin came here and told me to listen to the hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> csshih: i didnt realize he was a hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> until the attack
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he is writing utter bs on the forums about "Warning me"
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he talked to me about 51% attacks
[06:58] <@RealSolid> then he just spams the chain using low fees
[06:58] <@RealSolid> csshih: it doesnt matter if gavin has nothing to do with it, him not knowing the situation and telling me to listen to a hacker is offensive
[06:59] <gavinandresen> So RealSolid, I want to make sure I understand why you decided to create solidcoin-- you think core bitcoin development is going way too slow, and we're not open to new features that will make it better.  Do I have that right?
[07:00] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: that is correct
[07:00] <@RealSolid> i already discussed many of the improvements i wanted in bitcoin prior to starting it
[07:00] <@RealSolid> and no one thought they were needed
[07:01] <@RealSolid> the only option is to create what i thought was the better design
[07:01] <gavinandresen> Well, it is all about risk/reward.  And with core bitcoin, the risks are very high, partly because Satoshi isn't around and he is the only person who really truly deeply understands all of the code.  But mostly because we're talking real money here.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i understand your hesitance with touching working code
[07:02] <@RealSolid> however the code is a big mess
[07:02] <@RealSolid> and theres so many issues with it and i havent even finished
[07:02] <gavinandresen> ... and several groups are working on re-implementing it, which I support.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> oh?
[07:02] <gavinandresen> What I don't understand is if you want bitcoin to get better, why would you prohibit changes from flowing back upstream?
[07:03] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: because of the morons in your dvelopment team, and other supporters trolling us
[07:03] <gavinandresen> Okey doke.  Like I said, if you want to lead an open source project you'd better have a really thick skin.  That's just the nature of the beast.
[07:04] <@RealSolid> its open source, ask before you use
[07:04] <@RealSolid> simple
[07:04] <Snapman> if you need permisson, that means you allow some, disallow others, that isnt open source..
[07:04] <shadders> ask before you use but don't bother if you're a bitcoin dev coz the answer's no...
[07:04] <Snapman> more liek selective source
[07:04] <@RealSolid> shadders: i never said no to him using source
[07:05] <@RealSolid> hes asking me to pinpoint one of the vulns i know about
[07:05] <@RealSolid> even though the source is there
[07:05] <@RealSolid> ie he wants a short cut
[07:06] <gavinandresen> I would like you to send me private email about vulnerabilities BEFORE releasing source.
[07:06] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: id like you to tell your supporters to not attack SC
[07:07] <@RealSolid> quid pro quo
[07:07] <gavinandresen> Again, they are not "my" supporters, and if I start trying to tell them what to do they'll just laugh at me.
[07:07] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: thats not the impression i get
[07:08] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: you apparently know artforz and think good things about him
[07:08] <Phoebus> What's the big idea? We want a project like bitcoin to really make it, or bitcoin itself. Are we on the same side? The rest is just group dynamics, us vs them BS.
[07:08] <@RealSolid> its not like you have no say to people like him
[07:08] <gavinandresen> Phoebus: +1
[07:08] <@RealSolid> shadders: i dont waste my time with such things, id rather write working code
[07:09] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i think you should step down from bitcoin development and let it fail
[07:09] <@RealSolid> because its going to fail soon enough
[07:09] <gavinandresen> Ok, I've said what I came to say, I'll catch y'all later.
[07:10] * gavinandresen has left #solidcoin

using code tags for easy scrolling. copy/paste into your favorite word processor for easier reading.


Craig

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[N12]

Man, all this stuff has got to make it into the media eventually.

[csshih]

Man, all this stuff has got to make it into the media eventually.

ohyeah, more juicy bits:

Code:

[07:09] <csshih> you want bitcoin dev to fail, and solidcoin to take over?
[07:09] <Phoebus> I've given BTC a good try, made a few hundred trades -- even bought services in btc. But overall, the project needs to mature....
[07:09] <gavinandresen> Ok, I've said what I came to say, I'll catch y'all later.
[07:09] <shadders> gavinandresen: give it up.. yr dealing with a child
[07:10] <csshih> take care gavin
[07:10] * gavinandresen has left #solidcoin
[07:10] <Phoebus> gfinn, more fair based on how much the coin is actually worth - if you're paying more fees than using paypal or a cc, it's just wrong, especially when pp is instant.
[07:10] <@RealSolid> csshih: sure, the better system should succeed in the end
[07:10] <@RealSolid> gavin is just delaying it

Craig

[smoothie]

http://www.incoherentphotography.com/uploads/2011.09.04-07.17.48.txt

quite interesting, have a look.

the main highlights, hopefully I didn't take anything out of context. I wouldn't like to start sounding like a generic media outlet.
I'm not cherry picking if I include the fulltext, right? 

Code:

[06:35] <gavinandresen> Hey everybody.  Is RealSolid here?
[06:35] <@RealSolid> in my lucid moments
[06:36] <gavinandresen> So you asked in private message on the forums why you should report denial-of-service vulnerabilities to Jeff or me....
[06:36] <gavinandresen> ... and I thought that would be obvious.
[06:36] <gavinandresen> You seem to be upset with us for some reason-- did I say something somewhere to offend you or solidcoin?
[06:37] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: no not you but your other developers
[06:37] <gavinandresen> Well, I can't speak for the other developers, but I personally would appreciate it if you let me know of any vulnerabilities or deficiencies in bitcoin.
[06:38] <gavinandresen> No software is perfect, and bitcoin is way-very-far from perfect.
[06:38] <@RealSolid> i know that, having changed a lot of it
[06:39] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: the SC network was attacked by one of your supporters/developers
[06:39] <@RealSolid> in artforz
[06:39] <@RealSolid> now someone is doing the same attack to btc
[06:40] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but the issue i found is more relating to being able to potentially crash clients and run them out of memory
[06:41] <gavinandresen> ArtForz isn't a bitcoin developer.  He is very smart, though, and you should listen to him (he helped find a couple of nasty bitcoin bugs last year)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: so youre promoting his attack on the network
[06:42] <gavinandresen> No.  He should have done what he did on the solidcoin test network.
[06:42] <gavinandresen> (you do have a test network, right?)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> sure if anyone runs it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but he didnt do it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> and your support of a hacker is interesting
[06:43] <@RealSolid> "no he shouldnt have done it , but boys will be boys come on"
[06:44] <gavinandresen> Hackers and script-kiddies are a fact of life, which is exactly why I'm asking you to let me know when you find potential issues.  So we have a chance to fix them before the hackers take advantage of them.
[06:44] <@RealSolid> csshih: hes essentially supporting a known hacker who has caused chaos for thousands of people
[06:45] <@RealSolid> artforz did it mainly just to piss of solidcoin users
[06:45] <@RealSolid> and i find the developer of bitcoin semi-supporting him by telling me to "listen to him
[06:45] <@RealSolid> as rather offensive
[06:45] <gavinandresen> You should listen to ArtForz, as I said he's very smart.
[06:46] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: ok you should listen to him too then, get him to fix your bugs
[06:47] <@RealSolid> if gavin wants to come here to tell me to listen to a blackhat hacker
[06:47] <@RealSolid> he is trying to be offensive
[06:47] <gavinandresen> Ok, this is silly, I don't want to get dragged into "you're supporting a KNOWN TERRORIST!"
[06:48] <gavinandresen> I came here to ask RealSolid to be responsible and report problems or vulnerabilities to the core bitcoin dev team before releasing code that fixes the exploit (because releasing code tells the hackers what to attack).  RealSolid, I'll ask again:  are you willing to do that?
[06:49] <@RealSolid> you ask me to be responsible when your team and supporters are hacking the SC network
[06:49] <gavinandresen> They aren't "my" supporters.  It is not even really "my" team
[06:49] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: if they arent, then i dont understand your tone, maybe youre ignorant about the situation
[06:49] <gavinandresen> (and did Pieter or Jeff or Nils do somethign to solidcoin?)
[06:51] <@RealSolid> we're drama queens
[06:52] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: we've had 2 weeks of many of your developers trashing solidcoin
[06:52] <@RealSolid> and then weve had some of your biggest supporters hacking/exploiting/spamming the networtk
[06:52] <@RealSolid> for you to come in completely ignorant and tell me to listen to the main hacker
[06:52] <@RealSolid> annoys me
[06:53] <@RealSolid> so either you pull the people in line who are supporting you and your project or i dont help your project
[06:53] <@RealSolid> i dont appreciate your people attacking us
[06:53] <gavinandresen> If you watch the talk I gave at the bitcoin conference a couple of weeks ago, I say my #1 qualification for being the project lead is having a thick skin
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i dont understand how you can come here completely ignorant about the last 2 weeks
[06:54] <gavinandresen> My advice to you if you want solidcoin to be a success is to step away from the keyboard when you're annoyed.
[06:54] <@RealSolid> its like you were living in cave
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: SC will be a success because i know how to develop successful products
[06:55] <@RealSolid> am i the one asking bitcoin developers for help?
[06:55] <@RealSolid> gavin is here asking me for help
[06:55] <@RealSolid> and he is being offensive in the process
[06:56] <@RealSolid> csshih: artforz is the known hacker, there are others
[06:56] <@RealSolid> gavin came here and told me to listen to the hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> csshih: i didnt realize he was a hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> until the attack
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he is writing utter bs on the forums about "Warning me"
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he talked to me about 51% attacks
[06:58] <@RealSolid> then he just spams the chain using low fees
[06:58] <@RealSolid> csshih: it doesnt matter if gavin has nothing to do with it, him not knowing the situation and telling me to listen to a hacker is offensive
[06:59] <gavinandresen> So RealSolid, I want to make sure I understand why you decided to create solidcoin-- you think core bitcoin development is going way too slow, and we're not open to new features that will make it better.  Do I have that right?
[07:00] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: that is correct
[07:00] <@RealSolid> i already discussed many of the improvements i wanted in bitcoin prior to starting it
[07:00] <@RealSolid> and no one thought they were needed
[07:01] <@RealSolid> the only option is to create what i thought was the better design
[07:01] <gavinandresen> Well, it is all about risk/reward.  And with core bitcoin, the risks are very high, partly because Satoshi isn't around and he is the only person who really truly deeply understands all of the code.  But mostly because we're talking real money here.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i understand your hesitance with touching working code
[07:02] <@RealSolid> however the code is a big mess
[07:02] <@RealSolid> and theres so many issues with it and i havent even finished
[07:02] <gavinandresen> ... and several groups are working on re-implementing it, which I support.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> oh?
[07:02] <gavinandresen> What I don't understand is if you want bitcoin to get better, why would you prohibit changes from flowing back upstream?
[07:03] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: because of the morons in your dvelopment team, and other supporters trolling us
[07:03] <gavinandresen> Okey doke.  Like I said, if you want to lead an open source project you'd better have a really thick skin.  That's just the nature of the beast.
[07:04] <@RealSolid> its open source, ask before you use
[07:04] <@RealSolid> simple
[07:04] <Snapman> if you need permisson, that means you allow some, disallow others, that isnt open source..
[07:04] <shadders> ask before you use but don't bother if you're a bitcoin dev coz the answer's no...
[07:04] <Snapman> more liek selective source
[07:04] <@RealSolid> shadders: i never said no to him using source
[07:05] <@RealSolid> hes asking me to pinpoint one of the vulns i know about
[07:05] <@RealSolid> even though the source is there
[07:05] <@RealSolid> ie he wants a short cut
[07:06] <gavinandresen> I would like you to send me private email about vulnerabilities BEFORE releasing source.
[07:06] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: id like you to tell your supporters to not attack SC
[07:07] <@RealSolid> quid pro quo
[07:07] <gavinandresen> Again, they are not "my" supporters, and if I start trying to tell them what to do they'll just laugh at me.
[07:07] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: thats not the impression i get
[07:08] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: you apparently know artforz and think good things about him
[07:08] <Phoebus> What's the big idea? We want a project like bitcoin to really make it, or bitcoin itself. Are we on the same side? The rest is just group dynamics, us vs them BS.
[07:08] <@RealSolid> its not like you have no say to people like him
[07:08] <gavinandresen> Phoebus: +1
[07:08] <@RealSolid> shadders: i dont waste my time with such things, id rather write working code
[07:09] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i think you should step down from bitcoin development and let it fail
[07:09] <@RealSolid> because its going to fail soon enough
[07:09] <gavinandresen> Ok, I've said what I came to say, I'll catch y'all later.
[07:10] * gavinandresen has left #solidcoin

using code tags for easy scrolling. copy/paste into your favorite word processor for easier reading.


Craig

realsolid's tone is that of an accusatory one. What a cry baby. Wah Wah wah!

[Lumpy]

Nice job being level-headed and reasonable, Gavin.

ReadSolid/CoinHunter: I thought SolidCoin was an interesting project when you first forked it. But time and time again you have proved yourself to be an arrogant jerk. When all is said and done, let it be known that YOU and YOU ALONE killed SolidCoin. Regardless of what technical strengths you think it has over Bitcoin, your abrasive personality and unwillingness to listen to feedback is enough to make the community reject the chain.

[3phase]

Nice job being level-headed and reasonable, Gavin.

ReadSolid/CoinHunter: I thought SolidCoin was an interesting project when you first forked it. But time and time again you have proved yourself to be an arrogant jerk. When all is said and done, let it be known that YOU and YOU ALONE killed SolidCoin. Regardless of what technical strengths you think it has over Bitcoin, your abrasive personality and unwillingness to listen to feedback is enough to make the community reject the chain.

It was obvious for anyone to see that it would end up like this. Proof:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38453.msg485776#msg485776

[ohforf]

[07:03] <gavinandresen> Okey doke.  Like I said, if you want to lead an open source project you'd better have a really thick skin.  That's just the nature of the beast.

 
Indeed.

[titbb]

Man, all this stuff has got to make it into the media eventually.

ohyeah, more juicy bits:

Code:

[07:09] <csshih> you want bitcoin dev to fail, and solidcoin to take over?
[07:10] <@RealSolid> csshih: sure, the better system should succeed in the end
[07:10] <@RealSolid> gavin is just delaying it

Craig

What a big epeen here! Jezus! What an arrogant selfish child! So he refuses to help others because he wants his own 'project' to succeed. Shame its still based on BTC, seems your forgetting that little part?

I dont condone attacks on other peoples views or beliefs or even their own projects, but mr RealSolid is making it very easy here.

[eleuthria]

Good job Gavin on how you handled this.  Nice to see at least one side of the conversation remained diplomatic and respectful.

[smoothie]

Good job Gavin on how you handled this.  Nice to see at least one side of the conversation remained diplomatic and respectful.

+1 agreed

[smoothie]

I support banning the solidcoin developers from this forum. 

Fixed

[sd]

Gavin Andresen just gained a lot of respect from me. What a good guy.

RealSolid seems to be on the verge of a total breakdown.

[smoothie]

Gavin Andresen just gained a lot of respect from me. What a good guy.

RealSolid seems to be on the verge of a total breakdown.

Yeah Gavin really did handle the adversity very well. No insults. No slander. Just wanting to work with coinhunter.

Coinhunter sure seemed like he had a personal vendetta against the entire bitcoin project and also appeared to want Gavin's position/job.

(shakes head)

[AnRkey]

Good job Gavin on how you handled this.  Nice to see at least one side of the conversation remained diplomatic and respectful.

+1

[Luke-Jr]

It should be noted that publicly posting logs of private* IRC channels is arguably illegal (copyright and/or wiretapping) and explicitly against Freenode's policies.

If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through.  The freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public channels, most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that they'll be enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants publish logs.

 If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, and get permission from the channel owners before you start. If you're thinking of "anonymizing" your logs (removing information that identifies the specific users), be aware that it's difficult to do it well—replies and general context often provide identifying information which is hard to filter.

 If you just want to publish a single conversation, be careful to get permission from each participant. Provide as much context as you can. Avoid the temptation to publish or distribute logs without permission in order to portray someone in a bad light. The reputation you save will most likely be your own.

* As stated above, "private" is the default for channels, unless they are known to be publicly logged usually by a mention in the topic.


Interesting he says ArtForz is the attacker. He was obstinately accusing me yesterday.

[smoothie]

It should be noted that publicly posting logs of private* IRC channels is arguably illegal (copyright and/or wiretapping) and explicitly against Freenode's policies.

If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through.  The freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public channels, most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that they'll be enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants publish logs.

 If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, and get permission from the channel owners before you start. If you're thinking of "anonymizing" your logs (removing information that identifies the specific users), be aware that it's difficult to do it well—replies and general context often provide identifying information which is hard to filter.

 If you just want to publish a single conversation, be careful to get permission from each participant. Provide as much context as you can. Avoid the temptation to publish or distribute logs without permission in order to portray someone in a bad light. The reputation you save will most likely be your own.

* As stated above, "private" is the default for channels, unless they are known to be publicly logged usually by a mention in the topic.


Interesting he says ArtForz is the attacker. He was obstinately accusing me yesterday.

So I supposed copy and paste is illegal then right? lol

[Luke-Jr]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the copyright notices.

Copyright law does not require notices. Everything is copyrighted by default.

[Maged]

Anyone who thinks that they shouldn't take advice from hackers should never be a lead developer on ANYTHING. Hackers provide some of the best advice you'll ever get on a project, especially if they are willing to talk to you FOR FREE. Many hackers would make you pay for the kinds of things that ArtForz told you. If a hacker tells you of a possible attack, as the lead developer, instead of ignoring them, you should LISTEN and DROP EVERYTHING to fix the issue. Not doing so results in what we just saw. It also results in things like MtGox, Mybitcoin, and Sony.

True blackhat hackers won't even reveal themselves, let alone talk to you. If someone warns you about something, you should heed that advice, regardless of who it comes from.

[titbb]

Anyone who thinks that they shouldn't take advice from hackers should never be a lead developer on ANYTHING. Hackers provide some of the best advice you'll ever get on a project, especially if they are willing to talk to you FOR FREE. Many hackers would make you pay for the kinds of things that ArtForz told you. If a hacker tells you of a possible attack, as the lead developer, instead of ignoring them, you should LISTEN and DROP EVERYTHING to fix the issue. Not doing so results in what we just saw. It also results in things like MtGox, Mybitcoin, and Sony.

True blackhat hackers won't even reveal themselves, let alone talk to you. If someone warns you about something, you should heed that advice, regardless of who it comes from.

Good point.

It just shows he is too selfish in thinking that HIS own fork will be the winner over BTC.

[Lumpy]

Sony.

 

[Bitsky]

So I thought about taking a closer look at SolidCoin since threads about it keep popping up.

Now I won't.

RealSolid's way of handling this is arrgoant and he comes across as a huge drama queen.
He also seems not to be interested in giving back fixes to the project from which he forked his.

Perhaps SolidCoin is good, but with a project leader like this I won't touch it with a 10' pole.

[wolftaur]

When SC first came out I had some discussions with CoinHunter. At first he seemed perfectly likable.

Well, the posted log didn't change my mind, my mind's been changed since about three days after I chatted with him, but the posted log did go over the top to where I gotta say something.

The guy is arrogant, selfish, condescending, and not actually smart enough to where he has any right to be arrogant and condescending. I find the idea of him being in charge of a project offensive. Open source being what it is, he has the right to be in charge of a project, but anyone who asks my opinion of SolidCoin is going to hear some choice commentary about why you don't depend on a product that's coded by someone who's so much of a self-deluded prick that he opens up a massive attack to his software solely because he refuses to listen to anyone who's trying to help, thanks to his major personality and self-esteem issues to where you can't even hint he made a mistake without him coming out about how verbally abusive you are and you're obviously just a Bitcoin fan who wants to destroy everything he's worked for.

CoinHunter, I know you'll read this and flip out. Especially since the first time we talked and I was trying to be supportive and wanting to do some bug-hunting on the OSX version of the client you decided to throw 100 SolidCoins at me. Feel free to post an address and I can send them back to you if that's what you want.

Though it's going to take me a while. I had my coins running on a netbook, and since you couldn't heed ArtForz's warning, I'm going to have to run the client on something else. Something about a multi-gigabyte database commit log because you don't know what the fuck you're doing and are too arrogant to listen to someone's advice. My netbook only has a few gigs free, it's a pretty small SSD, and, well...

Advice. The next time someone you liked well enough to give a bunch of free coins to, and you were discussing new logos with him, etc, actually comes to you asking if you'd be willing to discuss whether or not ArtForz' comments might indicate an actual flaw, try not being so much of a dick in your response that I decide I don't actually care if your project gets attacked or not.

I tried, you fucked up. Majorly. Have a nice failure.

[wolftaur]

Well, there is probably enough usable code in version 0.3 to fork a solidc0in if anyone is willing to bother.

Apparently, someone did. As long as they move to a real development cycle and develop under reasonable rules the currency itself might have a chance, but CoinHunter did a fantastic job of urinating all over it.

[simonk83]

The more

http://www.incoherentphotography.com/uploads/2011.09.04-07.17.48.txt

quite interesting, have a look.

the main highlights, hopefully I didn't take anything out of context. I wouldn't like to start sounding like a generic media outlet.
I'm not cherry picking if I include the fulltext, right?  

Code:

[06:35] <gavinandresen> Hey everybody.  Is RealSolid here?
[06:35] <@RealSolid> in my lucid moments
[06:36] <gavinandresen> So you asked in private message on the forums why you should report denial-of-service vulnerabilities to Jeff or me....
[06:36] <gavinandresen> ... and I thought that would be obvious.
[06:36] <gavinandresen> You seem to be upset with us for some reason-- did I say something somewhere to offend you or solidcoin?
[06:37] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: no not you but your other developers
[06:37] <gavinandresen> Well, I can't speak for the other developers, but I personally would appreciate it if you let me know of any vulnerabilities or deficiencies in bitcoin.
[06:38] <gavinandresen> No software is perfect, and bitcoin is way-very-far from perfect.
[06:38] <@RealSolid> i know that, having changed a lot of it
[06:39] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: the SC network was attacked by one of your supporters/developers
[06:39] <@RealSolid> in artforz
[06:39] <@RealSolid> now someone is doing the same attack to btc
[06:40] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but the issue i found is more relating to being able to potentially crash clients and run them out of memory
[06:41] <gavinandresen> ArtForz isn't a bitcoin developer.  He is very smart, though, and you should listen to him (he helped find a couple of nasty bitcoin bugs last year)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: so youre promoting his attack on the network
[06:42] <gavinandresen> No.  He should have done what he did on the solidcoin test network.
[06:42] <gavinandresen> (you do have a test network, right?)
[06:42] <@RealSolid> sure if anyone runs it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: but he didnt do it
[06:43] <@RealSolid> and your support of a hacker is interesting
[06:43] <@RealSolid> "no he shouldnt have done it , but boys will be boys come on"
[06:44] <gavinandresen> Hackers and script-kiddies are a fact of life, which is exactly why I'm asking you to let me know when you find potential issues.  So we have a chance to fix them before the hackers take advantage of them.
[06:44] <@RealSolid> csshih: hes essentially supporting a known hacker who has caused chaos for thousands of people
[06:45] <@RealSolid> artforz did it mainly just to piss of solidcoin users
[06:45] <@RealSolid> and i find the developer of bitcoin semi-supporting him by telling me to "listen to him
[06:45] <@RealSolid> as rather offensive
[06:45] <gavinandresen> You should listen to ArtForz, as I said he's very smart.
[06:46] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: ok you should listen to him too then, get him to fix your bugs
[06:47] <@RealSolid> if gavin wants to come here to tell me to listen to a blackhat hacker
[06:47] <@RealSolid> he is trying to be offensive
[06:47] <gavinandresen> Ok, this is silly, I don't want to get dragged into "you're supporting a KNOWN TERRORIST!"
[06:48] <gavinandresen> I came here to ask RealSolid to be responsible and report problems or vulnerabilities to the core bitcoin dev team before releasing code that fixes the exploit (because releasing code tells the hackers what to attack).  RealSolid, I'll ask again:  are you willing to do that?
[06:49] <@RealSolid> you ask me to be responsible when your team and supporters are hacking the SC network
[06:49] <gavinandresen> They aren't "my" supporters.  It is not even really "my" team
[06:49] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: if they arent, then i dont understand your tone, maybe youre ignorant about the situation
[06:49] <gavinandresen> (and did Pieter or Jeff or Nils do somethign to solidcoin?)
[06:51] <@RealSolid> we're drama queens
[06:52] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: we've had 2 weeks of many of your developers trashing solidcoin
[06:52] <@RealSolid> and then weve had some of your biggest supporters hacking/exploiting/spamming the networtk
[06:52] <@RealSolid> for you to come in completely ignorant and tell me to listen to the main hacker
[06:52] <@RealSolid> annoys me
[06:53] <@RealSolid> so either you pull the people in line who are supporting you and your project or i dont help your project
[06:53] <@RealSolid> i dont appreciate your people attacking us
[06:53] <gavinandresen> If you watch the talk I gave at the bitcoin conference a couple of weeks ago, I say my #1 qualification for being the project lead is having a thick skin
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i dont understand how you can come here completely ignorant about the last 2 weeks
[06:54] <gavinandresen> My advice to you if you want solidcoin to be a success is to step away from the keyboard when you're annoyed.
[06:54] <@RealSolid> its like you were living in cave
[06:54] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: SC will be a success because i know how to develop successful products
[06:55] <@RealSolid> am i the one asking bitcoin developers for help?
[06:55] <@RealSolid> gavin is here asking me for help
[06:55] <@RealSolid> and he is being offensive in the process
[06:56] <@RealSolid> csshih: artforz is the known hacker, there are others
[06:56] <@RealSolid> gavin came here and told me to listen to the hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> csshih: i didnt realize he was a hacker
[06:57] <@RealSolid> until the attack
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he is writing utter bs on the forums about "Warning me"
[06:57] <@RealSolid> he talked to me about 51% attacks
[06:58] <@RealSolid> then he just spams the chain using low fees
[06:58] <@RealSolid> csshih: it doesnt matter if gavin has nothing to do with it, him not knowing the situation and telling me to listen to a hacker is offensive
[06:59] <gavinandresen> So RealSolid, I want to make sure I understand why you decided to create solidcoin-- you think core bitcoin development is going way too slow, and we're not open to new features that will make it better.  Do I have that right?
[07:00] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: that is correct
[07:00] <@RealSolid> i already discussed many of the improvements i wanted in bitcoin prior to starting it
[07:00] <@RealSolid> and no one thought they were needed
[07:01] <@RealSolid> the only option is to create what i thought was the better design
[07:01] <gavinandresen> Well, it is all about risk/reward.  And with core bitcoin, the risks are very high, partly because Satoshi isn't around and he is the only person who really truly deeply understands all of the code.  But mostly because we're talking real money here.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i understand your hesitance with touching working code
[07:02] <@RealSolid> however the code is a big mess
[07:02] <@RealSolid> and theres so many issues with it and i havent even finished
[07:02] <gavinandresen> ... and several groups are working on re-implementing it, which I support.
[07:02] <@RealSolid> oh?
[07:02] <gavinandresen> What I don't understand is if you want bitcoin to get better, why would you prohibit changes from flowing back upstream?
[07:03] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: because of the morons in your dvelopment team, and other supporters trolling us
[07:03] <gavinandresen> Okey doke.  Like I said, if you want to lead an open source project you'd better have a really thick skin.  That's just the nature of the beast.
[07:04] <@RealSolid> its open source, ask before you use
[07:04] <@RealSolid> simple
[07:04] <Snapman> if you need permisson, that means you allow some, disallow others, that isnt open source..
[07:04] <shadders> ask before you use but don't bother if you're a bitcoin dev coz the answer's no...
[07:04] <Snapman> more liek selective source
[07:04] <@RealSolid> shadders: i never said no to him using source
[07:05] <@RealSolid> hes asking me to pinpoint one of the vulns i know about
[07:05] <@RealSolid> even though the source is there
[07:05] <@RealSolid> ie he wants a short cut
[07:06] <gavinandresen> I would like you to send me private email about vulnerabilities BEFORE releasing source.
[07:06] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: id like you to tell your supporters to not attack SC
[07:07] <@RealSolid> quid pro quo
[07:07] <gavinandresen> Again, they are not "my" supporters, and if I start trying to tell them what to do they'll just laugh at me.
[07:07] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: thats not the impression i get
[07:08] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: you apparently know artforz and think good things about him
[07:08] <Phoebus> What's the big idea? We want a project like bitcoin to really make it, or bitcoin itself. Are we on the same side? The rest is just group dynamics, us vs them BS.
[07:08] <@RealSolid> its not like you have no say to people like him
[07:08] <gavinandresen> Phoebus: +1
[07:08] <@RealSolid> shadders: i dont waste my time with such things, id rather write working code
[07:09] <@RealSolid> gavinandresen: i think you should step down from bitcoin development and let it fail
[07:09] <@RealSolid> because its going to fail soon enough
[07:09] <gavinandresen> Ok, I've said what I came to say, I'll catch y'all later.
[07:10] * gavinandresen has left #solidcoin

using code tags for easy scrolling. copy/paste into your favorite word processor for easier reading.


Craig

The more I read "RealSolids" posts, the more I'm really starting to dislike him.   I was fine with SolidCoin sitting there doing it's thing before all this crap happened, but now I'm swaying more to the "let it fail" side just to piss this idiot off.

[simonk83]

EDIT:  Bah, not worth it.  Obviously a pre-schooler.

[wolftaur]

The more I read "RealSolids" posts, the more I'm really starting to dislike him.   I was fine with SolidCoin sitting there doing it's thing before all this crap happened, but now I'm swaying more to the "let it fail" side just to piss this idiot off.

SELL! SELL! SELL!

... if you can find an exchange that takes SC still open by the time you process a five gigabyte database journal commit.

[TwistedPair]

I'm not surprised by RealSolid's attitude.

It reflects perfectly the FUD articles on solidcoin.info about the "top-5 reasons" and "Ready for Bitcoin collapse" on why solidcoin was so much better than bitcoin/ixcoin/i0coin.

Releasing untested 'improvements' (taken from commits from other bitcoin developers I might add) does not make for a more secure network. The recent attack proves this clearly.

[coblee]

I can't wait for the hacker to come to bitcoin, release virus signatures into the block chain and when the majority of consumers have disabled virus scanning of bitcoin they release a real virus into the network.  That would be f'ing great at this point.

It seems like we still have a SolidCoin supported left! lol
Do you even know how viruses work? Now tell me how to add viruses to the block chain. If anything, I'd expect the next SC release from RealSolid to contain a bitcoin wallet stealing trojan. Be careful...

[wolftaur]

Do you even know how viruses work?

Given some of this guy's posts I think he probably thinks the internet is a big series of tubes.

[Starlightbreaker]

I can't wait for the hacker to come to bitcoin, release virus signatures into the block chain and when the majority of consumers have disabled virus scanning of bitcoin they release a real virus into the network.  That would be f'ing great at this point.

It seems like we still have a SolidCoin supported left! lol
Do you even know how viruses work? Now tell me how to add viruses to the block chain. If anything, I'd expect the next SC release from RealSolid to contain a bitcoin wallet stealing trojan. Be careful...

the most destructive thing you can put in the block chain is a penis ascii.
....or prayers.

either way, won't do much damage.

haha

[wolftaur]

the most destructive thing you can put in the block chain is a penis ascii.
....or prayers.

8=>

Dear lord, please forgive me for giving CoinHunter a stiffie that's unrealistically large.

There, much easier than doing it in the block chain.

[wolftaur]

This is more suitable for the cum guzzler.

~~~(|===3

Oh, is that what they call people who modify code they don't understand now?

[BitcoinPorn]

More +1 Gavin praise.  I had not read all that shit until now.  Even giving the benefit of the doubt to RealSolid on how he initially went into the conversation, his not accepting the fact that Gavin does not = the Bitcoin supporters nor control them, well there you go, the rest of the conversation is pretty much moot after that.

[CoinHunter]

More +1 Gavin praise.  I had not read all that shit until now.  Even giving the benefit of the doubt to RealSolid on how he initially went into the conversation, his not accepting the fact that Gavin does not = the Bitcoin supporters nor control them, well there you go, the rest of the conversation is pretty much moot after that.

I understand Gavin has very little influence or control over the other developers. What I didn't appreciate was Gavin telling me to "listen to" the hacker which attacked the network. I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people. If you can't see that it is indeed offensive to come into a channel and tell someone that the guy attacking the network you support is smart and worthy of being listened to then I can't help you.

If artforz had any decency about him he would have simply left our discussion where it was (about 5 lines worth). Instead he went malicious and people are congratulating him on it? The mind boggles.

When bitcoin starts being attacked will the same people be congratulating the FBI or SomethingAwful trolls for "strengthening" the network?

[wolftaur]

I understand Gavin has very little influence or control over the other developers. What I didn't appreciate was Gavin telling me to "listen to" the hacker which attacked the network. I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people. If you can't see that it is indeed offensive to come into a channel and tell someone that the guy attacking the network you support is smart and worthy of being listened to then I can't help you.

No, Gavin told you you should have listened. He was right. The network wouldn't have even been attackable if you weren't such an arrogant prick. Like when you flipped out on me for asking if you'd be willing to let me go over ArtForz' disclosure with you to see if it was a problem. I think your private response to me included an accusation that ArtForz was just jealous and full of shit, right?

[BitcoinPorn]

I understand Gavin has very little influence or control over the other developers. What I didn't appreciate was Gavin telling me to "listen to" the hacker which attacked the network. I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people. If you can't see that it is indeed offensive to come into a channel and tell someone that the guy attacking the network you support is smart and worthy of being listened to then I can't help you.

You have to accept that the intention was not to offend, it was just harsh truth regarding ArtForz who, though in a way I fucking hate beyond belief, is doing that dev / programmer thing of breaking other peoples toys for no real reason.   I still think what he did is shit, but man, attempting to slander Gavin's name through the forums as a "Hacker Supporter" when that is blowing what he is saying out of proportions.  If he told ArtForz to do the attacks, he is a hacker supporter.  If he even said what Art did was a good thing, he is a hacker supporter.  He only said for you to listen to him, and take it as a compliment that it took a 'smart guy' fuck with your network, it would have sucked if he was an idiot.

If artforz had any decency about him he would have simply left our discussion where it was (about 5 lines worth). Instead he went malicious and people are congratulating him on it? The mind boggles.

I can't agree with you enough here, it makes me sad some of the actions that come from Bitcoin users.  I don't think they teach 'be the bigger person' in school anymore or something.

When bitcoin starts being attacked will the same people be congratulating the FBI or SomethingAwful trolls for "strengthening" the network?

If it survives, yes.   Will it be the same for SolidCoin, time will tell, I think you are doing well so far with so much bullshit going on with SolidCoin.

[sd]

If it survives, yes.   Will it be the same for SolidCoin, time will tell, I think you are doing well so far with so much bullshit going on with SolidCoin.

Are you crazy? He caused the bullshit by lying his ass off about BitCoin whilst releasing a far less stable copy of BitCoin.

The guy is not stable enough to be project lead on his own shopping.

[wolftaur]

If it survives, yes.   Will it be the same for SolidCoin, time will tell, I think you are doing well so far with so much bullshit going on with SolidCoin.

Are you crazy? He caused the bullshit by lying his ass off about BitCoin whilst releasing a far less stable copy of BitCoin.

The guy is not stable enough to be project lead on his own shopping.

<CoinHunter> FORK YOU!
<ArtForz> Fork you right back.
<CoinHunter> FORK YOU GAVIN!

[CoinHunter]

No, Gavin told you you should have listened. He was right. The network wouldn't have even been attackable if you weren't such an arrogant prick.

That's wrong, the same attack (and others artforz is aware of) are possible with Bitcoin, at relatively little expense. The reason artforz decided to attack SolidCoin was due to his own ego, dislike for me and the project and the fact he is malicious in nature. Artforz "warning" me is also a bit of a joke, he sent me about 5 lines of text, mainly talking about 51% attacks. I simply said the "extra" 51% attacks are irrelevant because at 51% you're dead anyhow. This somehow get's translated into me "fobbing him off" and "not listening" . It's a bit of a joke.

I don't like a few people it doesn't mean I want to harm them. That is the difference between a professional and a hacker who couldn't care less. Anyone cheering on the SC attacks is just asking to be proved a fool when bitcoin is attacked in the same manner.

In regards to Gavin, if he didn't come to the channel ignorant about what had been going on with regards to attacks to SolidCoin and some of bitcoin developers comments and attitudes things would have gone a lot better. It was fathers day that day, and I had to spend part of my day away from my family dealing with more shit from a hacker. He was asking me a favour and insulted me in the process. Obviously bitcoin supporters won't be happy with the conversation because I didn't act like Jesus entered the channel but I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene". And he should try at least to use his influence with people he knows.

[wolftaur]

That's wrong, the same attack (and others artforz is aware of) are possible with Bitcoin, at relatively little expense. The reason artforz decided to attack SolidCoin was due to his own ego, dislike for me and the project and the fact he is malicious in nature. Artforz "warning" me is also a bit of a joke, he sent me about 5 lines of text, mainly talking about 51% attacks. I simply said the "extra" 51% attacks are irrelevant because at 51% you're dead anyhow. This somehow get's translated into me "fobbing him off" and "not listening" . It's a bit of a joke.

The big joke is you seem to think ArtForz has no reason to dislike you that much.

[simonk83]

 If you can't see that it is indeed offensive to come into a channel and tell someone that the guy attacking the network you support is smart and worthy of being listened to then I can't help you.

And if you can't understand why it would be a good idea to listen then you're more far gone than I originally thought.  Pull your head in.

Anyway, all this is moot now as we have the new open source client.  Do with yours as you will.

[BitcoinPorn]

I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene". And he should try at least to use his influence with people he knows.

Total bs.  Gavin needs to focus on gavin, all devs not only hate this "scene", but have taken it to the point where these forums are not connected with Bitcoin.org.   Stop the silly slander and any focus on Gavin, misunderstanding, he has nothing to do with the shit going on.

[ThomasV]

That's wrong, the same attack (and others artforz is aware of) are possible with Bitcoin, at relatively little expense.

Bullshit. If the same attack was possible with Bitcoin, it would have been done long ago.
And oh, the very creation of solidcoin was an attack too: http://solidcoin.info/solidcoin-ready-for-bitcoin-collapse.php
It failed as well.

[csshih]

<CoinHunter> FORK YOU!
<ArtForz> Fork you right back.
<CoinHunter> FORK YOU GAVIN!

Brilliant.

Craig

[smoothie]

That's wrong, the same attack (and others artforz is aware of) are possible with Bitcoin, at relatively little expense. The reason artforz decided to attack SolidCoin was due to his own ego, dislike for me and the project and the fact he is malicious in nature. Artforz "warning" me is also a bit of a joke, he sent me about 5 lines of text, mainly talking about 51% attacks. I simply said the "extra" 51% attacks are irrelevant because at 51% you're dead anyhow. This somehow get's translated into me "fobbing him off" and "not listening" . It's a bit of a joke.

The big joke is you seem to think ArtForz has no reason to dislike you that much.

The big joke is you seem to make about 1000 posts in a day and they are 100% shit.

Seems you, him, and I do the same thing.

[nguoinhaque]

I agree that CoinHunter's behavior is immature and not professional (I guess his age is under 25 and very likely under 20) but I don't suppose ArtForz is a good guy. If CoinHunter didn't admit SolidCoin's weekness, ArtForz should post his argument here to show how stupid and arrogant CoinHunter is instead of attacking SolidCoin. I think ArtForz is:
+ The same guy as CoinHunter (immature and not professional). Want to show he is correct immediately when CoinHunter ignore his warning
+ A guy want SolidCoin to die

I don't like CoinHunter but he might correct when he said (in SolidCoin forum, I can't remember the exact post) that guys here attacking him and SolidCoin for the only reason: MONEY
This war is very bad for SolidCoin, Bitcoin and also very bad for cryptography currency community. I'm a fan of cryptography currency and really want this war be ended

[cgpgroup]

More +1 Gavin praise.  I had not read all that shit until now.  Even giving the benefit of the doubt to RealSolid on how he initially went into the conversation, his not accepting the fact that Gavin does not = the Bitcoin supporters nor control them, well there you go, the rest of the conversation is pretty much moot after that.

I understand Gavin has very little influence or control over the other developers. What I didn't appreciate was Gavin telling me to "listen to" the hacker which attacked the network. I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people. If you can't see that it is indeed offensive to come into a channel and tell someone that the guy attacking the network you support is smart and worthy of being listened to then I can't help you.

If artforz had any decency about him he would have simply left our discussion where it was (about 5 lines worth). Instead he went malicious and people are congratulating him on it? The mind boggles.

When bitcoin starts being attacked will the same people be congratulating the FBI or SomethingAwful trolls for "strengthening" the network?

And you should have listened... thanks for banning my account on your forum mr duche bag..... lol. what an a$$...

[johnj]

I don't like CoinHunter but he might correct when he said (in SolidCoin forum, I can't remember the exact post) that guys here attacking him and SolidCoin for the only reason: MONEY
This war is very bad for SolidCoin, Bitcoin and also very bad for cryptography currency community. I'm a fan of cryptography currency and really want this war be ended

(not directed at nguoinhaque)

I can't believe people are really buying into RS's gig.  It's total propaganda.

I'm going to go ahead and make a guess that each one of the SC footsoldiers have been taken aside personally by RS and told how thankful he is for the support and how their involvement is crucial.  He probably let his walls down a little, showed them the 'person' behind the persona.  How (he is just telling ONE person this,don't tell anyone else) it gets him down sometimes with all the flames, but he is glad he has their support.

If I guessed right, welcome to Scammy McScammerVille.

<fox news>

What would have happened if we 'just stopped fighting' during WW2?  NAZIS, that's what.

</fox news>

Edit:  Wanna know whats bad for cryptocurrencies? https://i.imgur.com/xGoYI.png .  Yeah.  RS is the one slingin the most mud.

[ArtForz]

"I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people."
Right. He had already fixed it. So *thats* why it took him THREE releases to get his half-assed "fix" right and the current release still happily creates 6.8GB of temporary txdb journal bloat while downloading the chain.
*facepalm*

[cgpgroup]

"I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people."
Right. He had already fixed it. So *thats* why it took him THREE releases to get his half-assed "fix" right and the current release still happily creates 6.8GB of temporary txdb journal bloat while downloading the chain.
*facepalm*

LOL more like *plank to back of head*

[coblee]

... but I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene".

Gavin is busy actually working on Bitcoin development. Count how many threads there are about SolidCoin on the forum. Do you really expect Gavin to have the time to read all that? He probably just heard from someone that you found some bugs in Bitcoin but are not willing to share the fix upstream. So he just logged in to your IRC chatroom to ask you why. Why does have to know all the history of your coin?

You treat him like an ass and call him a hacker supporter. There's really no room in the bitcoin "scene" for your immature childish behavior. See ya and good luck with your closed source dying fork.

[wolftaur]

I agree that CoinHunter's behavior is immature and not professional (I guess his age is under 25 and very likely under 20) but I don't suppose ArtForz is a good guy. If CoinHunter didn't admit SolidCoin's weekness, ArtForz should post his argument here to show how stupid and arrogant CoinHunter is instead of attacking SolidCoin.

ArtForz actually tried that and got nowhere.

[Zibbo]

but I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene".

Heh, I can imagine this pissed you off. Here you are waging your little war on Bitcoin, thinking you are the center of the universe. It must have been hard to notice that Solidcoin had not even registered on Gavins radar.

[wolftaur]

"I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people."
Right. He had already fixed it. So *thats* why it took him THREE releases to get his half-assed "fix" right and the current release still happily creates 6.8GB of temporary txdb journal bloat while downloading the chain.
*facepalm*

Actually, this is beyond facepalm territory. We're up to *headdesk* by now.

[wolftaur]

but I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene".

Heh, I can imagine this pissed you off. Here you are waging your little war on Bitcoin, thinking you are the center of the universe. It must have been hard to notice that Solidcoin had not even registered on Gavins radar.

His ego has collapsed in on itself to form a neural singularity. Fact slows down as it approaches him, and intelligence is trapped in the insanity well and cannot escape.

[coblee]

I agree that CoinHunter's behavior is immature and not professional (I guess his age is under 25 and very likely under 20) but I don't suppose ArtForz is a good guy. If CoinHunter didn't admit SolidCoin's weekness, ArtForz should post his argument here to show how stupid and arrogant CoinHunter is instead of attacking SolidCoin.

ArtForz actually tried that and got nowhere.

Even if you were telling the 100% truth, King Douche Bag still shouldn't have done what he did.... the additional problem is you're not telling the whole story, you're cherry picking a piece of the story to fit your agenda.

So what is the whole story? Please do tell. And please be specific about who you are talking about, because to me "King Douche Bag" is synonymous with CoinHunter.

[wolftaur]

ArtForz actually tried that and got nowhere.

Even if you were telling the 100% truth, King Douche Bag still shouldn't have done what he did.... the additional problem is you're not telling the whole story, you're cherry picking a piece of the story to fit your agenda.

So what is the whole story? Please do tell. And please be specific about who you are talking about, because to me "King Douche Bag" is synonymous with CoinHunter.

The whole story is ArtForz found weaknesses, CoinHunter ignored them, I actually went to CoinHunter privately and asked if he'd like me to help him go over them to see if it was a real problem and what the solutions might be, he flipped out on me, I walked off and laughed my ass off when ArtForz decided to prove the attack was real when CoinHunter was trying to pretend it was just "bitcoin attacking solidcoin", which of course he was paranoid about since he'd spread a bunch of lies about bitcoin when he released solidcoin.

[coblee]

So what is the whole story? Please do tell. And please be specific about who you are talking about, because to me "King Douche Bag" is synonymous with CoinHunter.

The whole story is ArtForz found weaknesses, CoinHunter ignored them, I actually went to CoinHunter privately and asked if he'd like me to help him go over them to see if it was a real problem and what the solutions might be, he flipped out on me, I walked off and laughed my ass off when ArtForz decided to prove the attack was real when CoinHunter was trying to pretend it was just "bitcoin attacking solidcoin", which of course he was paranoid about since he'd spread a bunch of lies about bitcoin when he released solidcoin.

What weakness did he actually claim to find?  On the public forum it alluded to 51% attacks not micro-transaction DDOSing...  How much time between even making that claim and making that attack (less than a day from what I recall)?  Am I wrong?

It doesn't matter how much time was between the claim and the attack. If CoinHunter had listened and worked with ArtForz, ArtForz would likely not have attacked the chain to prove the issue. And they could have taken weeks to put in a real fix that actually works.

On the forum, I think only the 51% attack was posted. He discussed the DDoS attack on the i0coin chatroom. Only ArtForz and CoinHunter know what exactly they discussed in private. But ArtForz said that he brought up the vulnerabilities to CoinHunter and was ignored. Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place. He's really too full of himself. Can's argue with that, right?

[ArtForz]

What weakness did he actually claim to find?  On the public forum it alluded to 51% attacks not micro-transaction DDOSing...  How much time between even making that claim and making that attack (less than a day from what I recall)?  Am I wrong?

"Your rules allow anyone to send transactions up to nearly BLOCK_SIZE_GEN for 0.01 coins" pretty much sums it up.
There was no microtransactions DDoS or anything the like.
One node. Sending 71 transactions with 350~430kB each over the span of 17 hours..
Take a look yourself: http://john-edwin-tobey.org/scbig.txt
They're in Blocks 28351 to 28481 in case you didn't notice.

[BitcoinPorn]

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art.  I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides.   Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

[smoothie]

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art.  I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides.   Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

It's a new day. Get over the past and move on.

Thanks!

[BitcoinPorn]

It's a new day. Get over the past and move on.

Pot kettle black etc

[johnj]

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art.  I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides.   Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

Or the alternative:

Art: Hey, here is an exploit, you should fix it
CH: Screw you fella!
***exploit remains active***
UNKNOWN: -attacks the chain even harder, causing a BIGGER issue-.

[coblee]

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art.  I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides.   Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

Now tell me how he "fucked over other people". It slowed down node processing of blocks. It wasn't even that slow. I remember CH/RS even boasted (don't remember forum or IRC) that even with this slow down, solidcoin is still confirming much faster than bitcoins. Sure, it crashed a few nodes due to the unintended transaction log growth. But this problem was quickly worked around by deleting the log files. All ArtForz did was to prove his point. Remember, his action did not cause the price of solidcoin to plummet. The price of solidcoin plummeted because CH/RS made a dick move to change the open source license. That was what "fucked over other people".

So ArtForz got shit on by CH/RS, and he performed a small attack to prove his point. Then CH/RS retaliated and pissed off everyone. I think what I heard recently on IRC summed this up perfectly: "don't piss on the heads of the giants whose shoulders you stand on"

[ArtForz]

A *bad* version of the attack could have looked like this:
Create one 1-input 10000-output transaction splitting 100.01 SC into 10000 * 0.01 SC + 0.01 fee (one output is ~35B, so only about 350kB or so). Submit it to other nodes and wait for it to get included into the chain.
While offline, create 10000 1-input 10000-output transactions, each spending one of those 0.01 and splitting it into 10000*0.00 + 0.01 fee (yes, that would have been a valid transaction!), collect all of them with a half-a-node or similar.
Inject those 10000 transactions (~350kB each) into the network at multiple points from machines with decent pipes (again, not too hard to do using half-a-node as a base).
Sit back and watch the show as nodes on the network try to cache and propagate 3.5GB of transactions.

[coblee]

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art.  I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides.   Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

Or the alternative:

Art: Hey, here is an exploit, you should fix it
CH: Screw you fella!
***exploit remains active***
UNKNOWN: -attacks the chain even harder, causing a BIGGER issue-.

Um, exactly. Here's an easy attack:
- Fork SolidCoin and modify code to ignore huge transactions and to perform the mining cartel attack.
- Put 60 GHash on mining SolidCoin using your modded code.
- Create thousands of these huge transactions in secret and release them at the same time.
- This will crash every single node due to out of memory issue. And if the nodes don't crash, they will be extremely slow to process blocks and transactions.
- Your 60 GHash will likely have 51% of the total mining power.
- While everyone else is picking up pieces, you are happily performing the mining cartel attack and raping solidcoin for its easy block rewards.

ArtForz is smart enough and has the resources to pull this off. Yet he didn't. He just released 71 transactions one at a time.

So yes, I think ArtForz did the right thing to bring this problem to the surface because CH/RS is too stupid to realize it's a problem and too full of himself to listen to others.

[BitcoinPorn]

Just out of curiosity, how possible or probable would this error have occurred naturally?  Or, do you all feel this might have just been found out by another user, and possibly not told to CoinHunter at all?

I will agree to disagree with you all on the issues regarding breaking other peoples programming for the sake of breaking it, as I know that isn't fully the reason, there was malicious intent as well and that sucks, but whatever.

[mizerydearia]

Let the cherrypicking begin:

<@RealSolid> gavinandresen: no not you but your other developers

"your" other developers?  gavinandresen has slaves?   O_O

<@RealSolid> gavinandresen: the SC network was attacked by one of your supporters/developers

Again, "your?"  Is bitcoin something that belongs to gavinandresen?  Even if gavinandresen is satoshi, the idea behind bitcoin (which is reimplemented in solidcoin) is just that, an idea, and it is widely recognized acceptably and therefore several human existences help to distribute, propagate and participate with the idea.  I don't think the idea belongs to any one individual even though there are human individuals behind the efforts related to continue developing and producing the idea more effortfully.


We're all individuals and generally want to help one another.  Hint: open source

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLci5DoZqHU