Bitcoin Forum
November 16, 2018, 06:41:19 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.17.0 [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: GMO miner B2: 7NM mining within reach?  (Read 2032 times)
philipma1957
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1377


Avalon 841 rocks


View Profile
June 07, 2018, 08:59:15 PM
 #41

I've been saying exactly that for three years, since S7 rolled out, but it looks like that kind of high-dense chipsinked package is becoming everyone's de-facto standard (except Avalon, thankfully).

There's no good reason not to build KW/sub-KW miners. Site density stopped being an issue back when people started using shelves instead of racks.

1.4KW is already difficult in that case size, without adding half again to it. Especially since all evidence points to smaller nodes having more issues with heat density in the dies, so the chips probably can't be allowed to run continuously at 120C die temperatures without a high risk of roasting before the machine's expected end of viability.

add on the lack of speed control.

they will run balls to the wall.

Avalon has various settings one is about 990 watts

Halong t1 with -ck firmware low setting is about 1300 watts

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
1542350479
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1542350479

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1542350479
Reply with quote  #2

1542350479
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1542350479
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1542350479

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1542350479
Reply with quote  #2

1542350479
Report to moderator
1542350479
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1542350479

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1542350479
Reply with quote  #2

1542350479
Report to moderator
1542350479
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1542350479

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1542350479
Reply with quote  #2

1542350479
Report to moderator
sidehack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1876
Merit: 1258

Curmudgeonly hardware guy


View Profile
June 07, 2018, 09:18:11 PM
 #42

I've also been saying that full control of core clock and voltage are necessary features but nobody does that anymore. Probably for idiot-proofing. It is handy some have at least partial options.

Got a new 28-135GH stick miner!
Currently in development - 100+GH USB stick; 800GH 60W pod; 6TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
philipma1957
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1377


Avalon 841 rocks


View Profile
June 07, 2018, 11:20:11 PM
 #43

I've also been saying that full control of core clock and voltage are necessary features but nobody does that anymore. Probably for idiot-proofing. It is handy some have at least partial options.

yeah  over clocking morons  caused lots of returns.

Sooo   no more voltage  controls.

To me I rather run all gear   at 60 to 80 percent of tops speeds and volts.

But no can do.

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
Thetaj
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 384
Merit: 108


View Profile
June 08, 2018, 04:58:29 AM
 #44



yeah  over clocking morons  caused lots of returns.

Sooo   no more voltage  controls.

To me I rather run all gear   at 60 to 80 percent of tops speeds and volts.

But no can do.

Yes can do, but you'll void the warranty on the S9s, You can do that on the 841s already but so far I found it unnecessary since -2 turns good yield with good power draw already.


I think GMO maybe releasing a smaller miner for home users late this year or early next year thats got lower power draw and lower speed from the looks of it. Apparently this machine is for "Large server farms". Also if you haven't noticed, the reason the price is so high is because they are mining themselves and they're not going to sell it at lower premiums
cuteman
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 378
Merit: 102



View Profile
June 08, 2018, 01:16:55 PM
 #45

1.4KW is already difficult in that case size, without adding half again to it. Especially since all evidence points to smaller nodes having more issues with heat density in the dies, so the chips probably can't be allowed to run continuously at 120C die temperatures without a high risk of roasting before the machine's expected end of viability.

GMO designed the machine in Japan, which is known for high quality. This means their rigs may outperform the china competitors in terms of quality.

Designed in Japan, produced in Taiwan



I would not be surprised if they offer 1 year warranty. This can be a big advantage.
sidehack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1876
Merit: 1258

Curmudgeonly hardware guy


View Profile
June 08, 2018, 01:19:00 PM
Merited by frodocooper (1)
 #46

So what, they're using air with a higher specific heat? Epoxy with zero thermal resistance? 300CFM fans that don't spin at 10KRPM and draw 100W to do it? Have they discovered a heatsink profile with no solidity and perfect heat transfer, and made sure to place every single one to avoid vortices?

Quality or not, the physics of air cooling is a big limitation. Look at all the issues we already have with heat unreliability on 16nm and 10nm and think how much worse it's going to be on 7nm, which has basically never been tested before this point.

Got a new 28-135GH stick miner!
Currently in development - 100+GH USB stick; 800GH 60W pod; 6TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
philipma1957
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1377


Avalon 841 rocks


View Profile
June 08, 2018, 01:35:18 PM
 #47

So what, they're using air with a higher specific heat? Epoxy with zero thermal resistance? 300CFM fans that don't spin at 10KRPM and draw 100W to do it? Have they discovered a heatsink profile with no solidity and perfect heat transfer, and made sure to place every single one to avoid vortices?

Quality or not, the physics of air cooling is a big limitation. Look at all the issues we already have with heat unreliability on 16nm and 10nm and think how much worse it's going to be on 7nm, which has basically never been tested before this point.

Well  1950 watts or 1990 watts either way   it will be roasting hot.

Even if they offer a semi speed control  like -ck did with the T1 (nice work on his part)
Or voltage offset like the Avalon 841

I can state it is a moron move to run 1950-1990 watts on that size and shape.

The density is not that important.
Cooling and efficiency are important.

They have began with a good chip (maybe)  and put it in a moron shape.

How about same size box doing 12th at 972 watts?  with  low medium fast speed settings.

The gear they built  with not like air cooling it will want ac and a colder room  which makes the power savings lost.

All these smart guys  and they sell this in a stupid box.

I tell you what  does this gear come on Nov 3 since it shipped on Oct 31?

And if it does come on Nov 3   How much do you want to bet  that bitmain beats them to market with the s-11   with  17 th doing 1377 watts.  same efficiency and cost of 1400?

How will GMO look then.

They really fucked up doing a pre order  with Oct delivery.

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
taserz
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 469
Merit: 111


Mining since 2011


View Profile
June 08, 2018, 08:50:26 PM
 #48

this style of selling only feeds into bitmain

[...]

I mean you can't really reverse engineer a 7nm chip. Also they didn't bribe anyone to make it faster than the sia they just did it a really inefficient way which allowed them to come to market faster even though the efficiency was shit compared to the others but they didn't care because they flooded the market.



Okay so let us say that GMO is bigger $$$

they still went in the wrong direction here.

[...]

I mean the biggest issue I see with a lot of mines is they are all going for high density well at least the services and business I use. So okay yeah you need more cooling to cool it down but if you have the hot and cold isles built for this kind of air movement your right as rain. Also for the 2kw these draws you figure on a 60amp pdu @ 240 you can run 7 of these off a 60amp pdu well maybe wil the rule of 80 your looking at 6 but that is almost using a full load. Granted the bigger miners with big power rails none of this really matter to them as pdu's are not an issue. When I had the majority of miners in my basement my issue was space. I had 40 miners and I did not have a way to put them all into the hot box. The hot box had proper cfm to vent it out but venting in 40 4inch ducts is just a mess when if I can do just 10 ducts I am right as rain. But I see your complaint but those of us and those who have to deal with high density due to limited room these could be great.

Want to throw me a tip: 1E5bZiPAh7Yt1VqNUyk7y9r48zpbGNTEUA
Mining bitcoin since 2011.
Best nerd decision of my life.
ccgllc
Copper Member
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 322
Merit: 56

Math doesn't care what you believe.


View Profile
June 08, 2018, 11:33:27 PM
 #49

I mean the biggest issue I see with a lot of mines is they are all going for high density well at least the services and business I use. So okay yeah you need more cooling to cool it down but if you have the hot and cold isles built for this kind of air movement your right as rain. Also for the 2kw these draws you figure on a 60amp pdu @ 240 you can run 7 of these off a 60amp pdu well maybe wil the rule of 80 your looking at 6 but that is almost using a full load. Granted the bigger miners with big power rails none of this really matter to them as pdu's are not an issue. When I had the majority of miners in my basement my issue was space. I had 40 miners and I did not have a way to put them all into the hot box. The hot box had proper cfm to vent it out but venting in 40 4inch ducts is just a mess when if I can do just 10 ducts I am right as rain. But I see your complaint but those of us and those who have to deal with high density due to limited room these could be great.

But many mid-size farm, like mine, have pre-wired expecting 20 amp 220V to be split between 2 devices, not one. 

I mine bitcoin for a living, and I mine at Kano.is!
Blokforge Affiliate:  https://blokforge.com/?ref=21
Linux since 0.96 kernel and Slackware distributions on (4) floppies...
NotFuzzyWarm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624
Merit: 1134


Evil beware: We have waffles!


View Profile
June 08, 2018, 11:39:33 PM
Merited by frodocooper (3)
 #50

Frankly, one does have to wonder where folks get their 'increase in efficiency' as node size get smaller figures from. Please explain your reasoning. Is it that you expext x amount of size reduction to equal the same x amount of power savings?

Bzzzt. The Real World doesn't work that way.

Lets see, Inno's A1 28nm chip back in late 2013: promoted to run 1.25x faster and 15% lower power than the Real World proved but - when put into a good design the chips still were/are rock-solid. ref the various Dragon miners from 2014 that are still around. I still have my uber-rare 1THs A1 miner from AMT, one of maybe 5-6 ever delivered by AMT before it went under as one of the casualties of the ill-fated, horrifically bad Bitmine.ch A1 hash board designs.

Same year, 2014, had several failed 28nm designs, BFL Monarch, the Minion chip, and others. Most failed because of the extreme power-density of the designs and insufficient cooling systems.

Then BM nailed the 28nm node with their s7 chip. Time passes and the 16nm s9 chips arrived ruling as most efficient (reference needed: last S7 chips vs first S9 chips. Did the size drop match eff increase? No, but how far off?) but even as early as the s4 BM began pushing power density. Their S5+ began their current shoe box packaging now copied by everyone, warts and all.. Everyone but Canaan with their Avalons that is. Only they seem to have taken the time and thought out proper internal design of the hash boards and heat sinks....

Back to node size/efficiency: The 10nm eBang eBit and Halong/Inno Dragonmint T1 miners began shipping early this year. The eBang 10nm efficiency is worse than their earlier 16nm miners plus it seems the their miners are dying on the vine. The Halong 10nm efficiency cannot really be compared due to the (minor) effective hash rate increase from it using asicboost. That said, despite -ck doing extensive performance tweaking (paid by MyRig and NOT Halong btw) people are reporting the T1 efficiency at advertised speed is less than a s9. Only when dropped to top s9 speeds of around 14THs and less does it match/slightly beat the s9.

Now GMO is pre-selling their 7nm miner with delivery starting Oct (or later). Pre-selling- as did Halong - with advertised specs that said pre-sale Investomers are expecting to achieve with no 'oh by the way the pool must support AB' surprises like Halong pulled or other such crap. Even more power density cooking a node size that even more than the 10nm node is meant for far cooler running, low power (mobile) chips.... Leakage from electrons quantum tunneling between the conductors will be even higher. Hmm, wonder how this will turn out.... Wink

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
How a miner mfgr SHOULD operate: HaggsFIN trip to Canaan My info useful? Donations welcome! 1Fuzzyk398kDWVjuC5qPX5v6CjSkvbgAbd
-Support Sidehacks miner development. Donations to:   1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
ccgllc
Copper Member
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 322
Merit: 56

Math doesn't care what you believe.


View Profile
June 09, 2018, 03:27:11 AM
 #51

Then BM nailed the 28nm node with their s7 chip. Time passes and the 16nm s9 chips arrived ruling as most efficient (reference needed: last S7 chips vs first S9 chips. Did the size drop match eff increase? No, but how far off?)

S3 478GH, 28nm silicon, 366W = 1.306GH/W at the chip = 0.766 W/GH
S4 2000GH, 28nm silicon, 1450W =  1.279GH/W "at the wall" (maybe) ~= 0.725 W/Gh
S5 1155GH, 28nm silicon, 590W = 1.958GH/W = 0.511 W/GH (just goes to show what can be down within a chip 'size')
S7 4500GH, 16nm silicon, 1293W = 3.480GH/W at the chip = 0.287 W/GH - a 1.78X factor in power consumption improvement for a 1.75X decrease in die size - pretty linear.
S9 13500GH, 16nm silicon, 1323W = 10.20GH/W at the chip = 0.098 W/GH - a 2.93X improvement in power consumption via better chip design vs. the S7.

So I'm guessing a shinkage of die size can be estimated to make linear improvement in power consumption, perhaps.

Here is hoping this doesn't get deleted for being "off topic" in a speculation forum...

I mine bitcoin for a living, and I mine at Kano.is!
Blokforge Affiliate:  https://blokforge.com/?ref=21
Linux since 0.96 kernel and Slackware distributions on (4) floppies...
sidehack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1876
Merit: 1258

Curmudgeonly hardware guy


View Profile
June 09, 2018, 03:39:46 AM
 #52

BM1385 in the S7 is a 28nm chip, and has a bottom-clock efficiency around 0.18J/GH with decent hashrates still around 0.22J/GH; the 700MHz operating point setpoint of 45-chip S7 was past the knee of the efficiency curve and we also lost ~10% of power, board-level, to the 45A single-phase main regulator plus around 50W machine-level just for fans. Chip-level, the BM1385 was not much worse than some others' early 14/16nm designs.

Got a new 28-135GH stick miner!
Currently in development - 100+GH USB stick; 800GH 60W pod; 6TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
Thetaj
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 384
Merit: 108


View Profile
June 09, 2018, 07:10:23 AM
 #53



But many mid-size farm, like mine, have pre-wired expecting 20 amp 220V to be split between 2 devices, not one. 
Amen to that

philipma1957
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1377


Avalon 841 rocks


View Profile
June 09, 2018, 12:54:49 PM
 #54

But many mid-size farm, like mine, have pre-wired expecting 20 amp 220V to be split between 2 devices, not one.  

Never wrote that taserz wrote it.

and  a hard wire 2 outlet circuit at 20 amps  would be asked to do 20x 240 = 4800  x 80 percent that is 3840  watts

or worse  20 x 220 = 4400 x 80 percent that is  3520 watts

since this says it is 1950 or 1990    you are doing 3900 watts to  3980 watts

I have gone past 80 percent derate   and in a hotter setup  it has issues.

I would  not want 100 of these  doing  398,000 watts   which could be  3980/4400 =  as high as 90.45 %    vs 80%    Yeah in canada or iceland not that hot

but plenty of hot mining spots are around

if you have robust volts (240)  you are at 3980/4800 =  82.92%  which may be okay

My area is 239 to 243 volts which is helpful.

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
sidehack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1876
Merit: 1258

Curmudgeonly hardware guy


View Profile
June 09, 2018, 01:18:34 PM
 #55

And if you're on 208V and derate to 80%, a 20A circuit gets you 1 machine (and 48% utilization); 30A circuit gets you 2 (and 64% utilization).
Though a 60A PDU and 80% derate would run exactly 5 without a lot of overhead.

208's pretty common for industrial-scale electric, even in datacenters.

And the point still stands that the power density and cooling requirements mean these'll only run where your intake temperatures are regulated to probably 60F and lower. In my farm, that means I could run one for at most five months out of the year. If someone bought one and sent it here for hosting I'd have to turn it down. Got enough trouble keeping S9s cool May through August.

Got a new 28-135GH stick miner!
Currently in development - 100+GH USB stick; 800GH 60W pod; 6TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
philipma1957
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1377


Avalon 841 rocks


View Profile
June 09, 2018, 01:41:53 PM
 #56

And if you're on 208V and derate to 80%, a 20A circuit gets you 1 machine (and 48% utilization); 30A circuit gets you 2 (and 64% utilization).
Though a 60A PDU and 80% derate would run exactly 5 without a lot of overhead.

208's pretty common for industrial-scale electric, even in datacenters.

And the point still stands that the power density and cooling requirements mean these'll only run where your intake temperatures are regulated to probably 60F and lower. In my farm, that means I could run one for at most five months out of the year. If someone bought one and sent it here for hosting I'd have to turn it down. Got enough trouble keeping S9s cool May through August.

The biggest reason I kept the t1s was -ck s speed control.

Low 14.4 th
Medium 15.5 th
Fast 16.5 Th.

That low setting solves my cooling issues in the summer .

The company GMO now has a hotbox doing 1950-1990 watts taking money for preorders .

First will it do all pools I don’t know
Second can I run it at 80% to avoid overheating I don’t know.
Yeah I get it that industrial spots may have really good cooling. But a lot of farms do not cool that way.

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
mgoz
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 127
Merit: 34


View Profile
June 11, 2018, 03:34:42 PM
 #57

I was watching the english version of the presentation and these apparently have some kind of GPS tracking enabled that they say is for locating during theft. They claimed they are already testing/mining with a B1 miner, which is not for sale to the public. B2 is still only in tape-out and they have no chips yet. Warranty is only 180 days.
NotFuzzyWarm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624
Merit: 1134


Evil beware: We have waffles!


View Profile
June 11, 2018, 03:55:15 PM
 #58

Quote
these apparently have some kind of GPS tracking enabled that they say is for locating during theft.
I doubt they are using GPS as interference from the miners would pretty much keep it from acquiring satellites. More likely it is just simple IP address lookup being used.

Question is: Are the miners constantly phoning home or does it only happen during boot? Where are the miners reporting to - a GMO site? If the tracking 'is for theft prevention' that implies that the miners can also be remotely shutdown ala' the Bitmain Antbleed kerfuffle. Can't wait for the rampant speculation to start on this one... Anyone need pitchforks and torches?

The last thing I want is ANY device be it a miner, TV, computer, whatever, to be phoning home. Hell, I even keep GPS/location reporting turned off on my phone.

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
How a miner mfgr SHOULD operate: HaggsFIN trip to Canaan My info useful? Donations welcome! 1Fuzzyk398kDWVjuC5qPX5v6CjSkvbgAbd
-Support Sidehacks miner development. Donations to:   1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
szlfsz
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 8
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 18, 2018, 03:55:07 PM
 #59

Does the actual unit have 2 network ports like the renderings and are they using the extra port to make them daisy-chainable?

there is a "spec" for it on their site, what states: Daisy Chain   MAX 32 units.. .whatever this means, I am curious if anyone has some actual info on this! Smiley
fanatic26
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 560


View Profile
June 21, 2018, 06:05:08 PM
 #60

I figured I would chime in from my perspective running a large scale datacenter.

The powerdraw and the anticipated heat problems are both deal killers. I would have to build a whole new power infrastructure to run these things and id end up with like 2 machines per shelf. Its a waste of space to try and shoehorn these into an existing setup. Obviously the things wont run in pretty much any crypto datacenter with the heat they will be pushing out. I dont know of any datacenter not in the arctic that can run cold enough in the summer to keep these things online. This is all not to mention how new, unproven, and quite probably unreliable the first generation of these miners/chips will be. I *might* order one as a test, but im leaning towards not bothering unless there are changes to the packaging and power requirements.

Also, Bitmain has delayed their next new miner and im betting they will release it just in time to take the wind out of GMOs sales. Better to go with the devil you know rather than the devil you dont. Bitmain will ship an as advertised unit and they will most likely ship it on time. As much hate as they receive they do get the job done.

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!