WTH? why a sudden drop by 10 cents?

[hazek]

Man it's frustrating to read your "we need more traders" posts when, and I already tried to explain this here, you actually need more miners and no one will listen.

If you think traders will come in and "invest" large amounts of their dollars, euros and whatever else while a small group is holding the vast majority of the 5.6mio BitCoins just because BitCoins have "good properties" as a currency you are sorely mistaken.

What BitCoins need is to be spread across many people in larger quantities who will eventually come to value them and will convince others who don't that they actually do have value and it's only then when you'll see traders come in and buy some and only after traders come in reputable businesses will think about accepting them.


I mean do you think gold became money because a few kings held the majority of it and offered them to their peasants for their goods and services and the peasants willingly accepted them just because of the properties of gold? Of course not! Many many people found gold around the whole planet and some found more and some found less but all of them started to value it because of it's properties AFTER they found it. And then they started to trade it for other stuff and when it spread it eventually got accepted as money.

I don't care if 50(imaginary number) original people who started BitCoins hold 4mio BitCoins right now. But that's me, someone who understands Austrian economics and the true value of this invention. But try convincing someone who doesn't.   That kind of person will only look at the number of bid vs ask offers and the volume and will only laugh at you.

[1714001092]

1714001092

[hazek]

How exactly have people convinced businesses to accept bitcoins before?

You should instead be asking: "How exactly have people convinced businesses to accept gold before?" and learn from history.

[VillageChump]

I'm not a expert in financial dadada, but isn't gold harder to sell? With BTC we can actually use it as currency to buy things, who accepts gold anymore for bread and milk? (I know BTC isn't accepted either, but its getting there)

I doubt BTC will ever replace an actual currency, I like to buy food myself. 

[hazek]

I'm not a expert in financial dadada, but isn't gold harder to sell? With BTC we can actually use it as currency to buy things, who accepts gold anymore for bread and milk? (I know BTC isn't accepted either, but its getting there)

I doubt BTC will ever replace an actual currency, I like to buy food myself.  

If I own gold bars I can go to a local dealer, sell at spot price and buy what ever the hell I want and I can do so ALL OVER THE WORLD. Gold is still money, and the whole world knows it.

Some US states are even trying to get bills passed that would make it so official again:

from: http://le.utah.gov/~2011/htmdoc/hbillhtm/HB0317S01.htm
           8      General Description:
             9          This bill recognizes gold and silver coins that are issued by the federal government as
             10      legal tender in the state and exempts the exchange of the coins from certain types of
             11      state tax liability.

It already passed the house and is in the senate now, and if they pass it and governor signs it gold and silver coins are officially money in Utah. And that's just one of the 10 or so states that are trying to pass something like that.

[Grinder]

If I own gold bars I can go to a local dealer, sell at spot price and buy what ever the hell I want and I can do so ALL OVER THE WORLD. Gold is still money, and the whole world knows it.

You'll never get spot price, and there are very few places that will pay more than 90% of the gold value. It'll probably be closer to 70 or 80%. Same thing if you want to buy, most dealers will take a hefty profit. This is the main reason why I don't buy gold. Your best bet it to find another person to trade with, but then you have to find a way to make sure it's real and as pure as advertised.

[hazek]

If I own gold bars I can go to a local dealer, sell at spot price and buy what ever the hell I want and I can do so ALL OVER THE WORLD. Gold is still money, and the whole world knows it.

You'll never get spot price, and there are very few places that will pay more than 90% of the gold value. It'll probably be closer to 70 or 80%. Same thing if you want to buy, most dealers will take a hefty profit. This is the main reason why I don't buy gold. Your best bet it to find another person to trade with, but then you have to find a way to make sure it's real and as pure as advertised.

lol of course they pay spot if the gold bars or coins you have are pure. It's when you buy from them when you have to pay 3-5% or so more then spot. Have you ever bought or sold any bullion bars or coins? I know I have.

[Grinder]

I suppose it's possible to get those prices if you live in London or New York or similar, but it's not anywhere in my country. As I said I haven't bought any gold, but it's not for the lack of trying.

[hazek]

And it's also possible if you live in a small country called Slovenia of which most people haven't even heard of and with a population of just 2mio people one of them being me. I don't doubt your word that you tried but maybe you should have tried harder.

[wb3]

I think the biggest problem with gold was its fluctuation. You can put $20 on the face, because it could be worth $15 or $25. If we switch to gold, the gold need to be pegged to a value higher than its intrinsic value to guarantee face value. This would provide a shoring up of the currency (an absolute minimum value) and allow the face values to remain constant.

And while in theory, the BTC has appeal, the lack of security will prevent it from being a base currency but might allow it to be a excellent secondary currency.

I.E. If my power and/or internet goes out (Hurricane, Earthquake, etc...) BTC will hold no value. Only Physical currency will matter. For this reason, non-physical currency (including Dollars in electronic form) are useless.  Having been in disaster areas, I have seen even the wealthy succumb to lack of access to cash, they had huge amounts of credit and wealth in their bank accounts, but it didn't mean anything because banks couldn't verify and didn't physically have enough cash to give out.

In this area, third world countries have an advantage. They are not reliant on electricity, computers, and the internet.

For this reason, I believe the BTC will be an excellent temporary currency. In and Out type of transactions, which will bode well for the Xchanges.

[LMGTFY]

And it's also possible if you live in a small country called Slovenia of which most people haven't even heard of and with a population of just 2mio people one of them being me. I don't doubt your word that you tried but maybe you should have tried harder.

Slovenia is part of the EU, which exempts many gold coins from value-added tax (1, 2). IIRC, gold is subject to tax in many other jurisdictions. (I don't recall which ones: I'm fortunate enough to live in the EU too!)

[hazek]

I think the biggest problem with gold was its fluctuation. You can put $20 on the face, because it could be worth $15 or $25. If we switch to gold, the gold need to be pegged to a value higher than its intrinsic value to guarantee face value. This would provide a shoring up of the currency (an absolute minimum value) and allow the face values to remain constant.

Sorry but that's a myth and a complete fabrication by the history taught in government institutionalized schools.

Dollar amount isn't suppose to represent a value but the weight of the coin. Much like 1 troy ounce equals 31.1034768 grams, back in the day when they used gold coins a $25 gold coin was equal to 1 troy ounce gold coin which was equal to 31.1034768 grams gold coin. So when the price of gold fluctuates what actually changes when pricing goods and services is the amount of weight you have to pay in gold for certain goods or services.

It's only when the government took over of issuing and the regulation of how much a dollar amount stated on paper gold receipts actually represents in weight that the paper gold receipts conveniently called dollars and used as money instead of the actually gold coins became separate paper money only backed by gold. Today it's not even that, it's just some name on a paper with a number and the government tells you you have to use it and how much it's suppose to be worth.


In a true free market prices of goods in services would be expressed in the weight of gold and silver coins and fluctuations would cause no problem at all.

[wb3]

Agreed if face amount states weight, like Suisse Gold does with purity. The problem there would be knowing the current value of said weight, in New York or Dubai not that big of a problem. In a Zimbabwe village, there would be a problem. The consistency of value would need to remain a constant for a said period of time.  Without that, there are a multitude of problems. Ie product prices would vary by the second, place shifting of currency (Buy Zimbabwe, Sell New York or vice versa).

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

OMG, what is all the hassle about ? It's a normal correction.

It happens and it will happen very often. BTC price will not stabilise until there is great amount of goods & services avaiable for it + much larger number of speculators than now...

[kiba]

OMG, what is all the hassle about ? It's a normal correction.

It happens and it will happen very often. BTC price will not stabilise until there is great amount of goods & services avaiable for it + much larger number of speculators than now...

We need to think about long-term fundamental rather than getting riled up about the price of bitcoin everytime it does a dramatic rise or a dramatic fall.

[Psychoactive]

Now I'm considering a stenciling campaign, Banksy style.

Here's one underhanded way it could be done:

1. Get a stencil made which says "We Now Accept Bitcoins" and apply it to every advertising billboard you can find.

2. Customers ask these businesses about how to pay with Bitcoins.

3. Businesses recognize the demand and support Bitcoins.

4. Success!

I agree that too few services are available in bitcoins to make the Bitcoin concept attractive. Of course, it would be nice if some businesses accepted Bitcoins.

I however think Bitcoin could be even more efficiently advertised and used for donations to non-profit organisations, or open-source projects. It's an easy (and rather anonymous) way to support causes you want to defend. Moreover, it is attractive to me to donate bitcoins, which I haven't really paid for, except for running my graphic card. This way I'm giving money that I would never have had without Bitcoin in the first place.

Such non-profit organizations could benefit from that, and could maybe obtain more donations, while advertising Bitcoin. They wouldn't at least take too much risk, as one would when building a bitcoin-based business.

Example : imagine if Wikileaks had accepted Bitcoins, I'm sure it would have obtained much more donations, especially when Paypal and Visa and Mastercard had blocked all donations.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Now I'm considering a stenciling campaign, Banksy style.

Here's one underhanded way it could be done:

1. Get a stencil made which says "We Now Accept Bitcoins" and apply it to every advertising billboard you can find.

2. Customers ask these businesses about how to pay with Bitcoins.

3. Businesses recognize the demand and support Bitcoins.

4. Success!

I haven't heard such an awesome & nifty idea in months...
That is simply genius.

[kiba]

Here's one underhanded way it could be done:

1. Get a stencil made which says "We Now Accept Bitcoins" and apply it to every advertising billboard you can find.

2. Customers ask these businesses about how to pay with Bitcoins.

3. Businesses recognize the demand and support Bitcoins.

4. Success!

I think it will backfire?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Here's one underhanded way it could be done:

1. Get a stencil made which says "We Now Accept Bitcoins" and apply it to every advertising billboard you can find.

2. Customers ask these businesses about how to pay with Bitcoins.

3. Businesses recognize the demand and support Bitcoins.

4. Success!

I think it will backfire?

I Can Haz™ a detailed explanation, please ?

[kiba]

I Can Haz™ a detailed explanation, please ?

Just a feeling.

Well, I think companies might not like this at all.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

I Can Haz™ a detailed explanation, please ?

Just a feeling.

Well, I think companies might not like this at all.

Well of course they won't like it.
But if somebody/some people act anonymously, they are powerless to stop this.

However i think that as long as anons don't overdose with the stickers (vandalism), the companies won't really care much.

Anon power.