[ANN] TopCoin [TOP] ★ Crypto Learning Center coming soon! ★ Practical toolset!

[alquinte]

Topcoin is a type of crypto currency, released 02/02/2014, where you can make instant person to person payments, anywhere in the world. A Crypto currency is a money system which requires no bank accounts or cards and is completely anonymous. With each Topcoin transaction is a nominal fee, this is paid directly to users who are supporting the network with their computer power. These users are known as miners. Miners are building the blockchain by computing mathematical equations, which is a database of every single transaction the network has ever processed. Everyone in the world has access to the blockchain, and anyone can offer their computer power to support the network and earn coins.

Can someone with knowledge of this coin go into further explanation of this "nominal fee".

It seems the like something the miners might want to know.

This is actually an important point. When you create a transaction (say I want to send you 1000 top coin) you can include a transaction fee (say 1 top coin). So I essentially give 1000 coins to you and 1 coin to the miners who include my transaction in a block. This is an incentive to miners to include your transaction so you get faster transaction times as well as a way for them to get additional rewards, especially at the 1 coin per block point. At that point transaction fees might become the major driver for mining.

[deadmanwalking]

Some good logical conversation going on here. Nice work guys.

[ManOnTheMoon]

ok everyones being all smart like now lets pump this to 100 sats wolong is ready lolololol

[atheistftwins]

I'm going to make another attempt at keeping the conversation logical so that we don't all lose our money on TOP:

The question is, what is the minimum block reward that is necessary to keep TOP alive? Lets say we have a goal, that goal being that if we ever get as popular as DOGE with a $50 million market cap, then we have to keep a hash rate of 5GH/S to stay safe.

That means, every day, the miners in total must generate at a minimum of $40,000 worth of TOP in order to want to keep mining the coin with that kind of hash rate.

So since we concluded at that market cap, each TOP will be worth around 0.45 cents, the miners must generate 8,800,000 TOP per day or 6110 TOP per block.

So there we have it. To stay safe as a coin, block rewards MUST stay above roughly 5000 coins/block. It's still such a low number that it will not significantly influence the inflation rate of the coin, but it makes a world of difference in not having the coin collapse due to low hash rate.

Edit: I still think 5000 is too low, since we aren't likely to reach market cap of DOGE, it's much better to assume we will reach market cap of Kitteh or something like that and keep reasonable hash rates even under those conditions. If we offered a minimum of 10000 coins/block, we will only introduce 14,400,000 coins per day at that rate. This is only 0.131% of the current proposed max amount of TOP which is completely insignificant

Edit2: I messed up the math, it's even worse than I thought since there's actually 11 billion TOP and I've been doing the math assuming 1.1 billion TOP.

[Murch]

ITT: People who don't understand economics.

ITT: Vague non-sequitirs.

Maybe I can clarify his point then:

What makes a coin valuable? Supply and demand. How much supply is there already of TOP? Just over 9 billion. How much demand is there for TOP? Not particularly much right now. This isn't food or even electronics. When coins are produced, they generally stay forever. Sure a small amount gets lost from people who lost their wallets etc, but it's not that significant a quantity. Functionally, coins stay forever. What does this mean for TOP? It means that it doesn't particularly matter that it will be really hard to mine more later, there's already so much that the supply is extremely large. In fact, we are already basically at the point that mining barely matters at all. By the next halving, it will be practically pointless to mine without an extreme hash drop.

So why is this unique for TOP? Because it reaches max supply quickly, and effectively stabilizes at that supply. The real question is will demand rise? Because of the stability of supply for TOP, any demand increases will not be diluted by inflation, what you see is effectively what you get in terms of TOP, it's very nature is deflationary if you get in past a certain point. Does price HAVE to rise? Not at all, demand could drop and we could see prices fall to 1 satoshi even or worthless (this will likely happen if hash rate goes too far down, people will have less faith in the security of the coin since 51% attacks will be easier). Could it rise? Sure, if demand rises then prices will go up proportional to demand, since there's no inflationary pressure.

The point is, TOP is designed so that if it gets a lot of hype, prices will rise very quickly. If there is no hype, it will likely die just as quickly because the hash rate will drop below a point where anybody is willing to trust the coin anymore. Effectively, in 1 week we will know what will happen to TOP.

Thank you, you've outlined the situation very succinctly. TopCoin will be made or broken by it's community.

I actually have a huge problem with one of the designs of top. The drop to 1 coin/block makes it so that it's almost guarranteed to die in 2 months time. Lets take a look at what miners expect in a coin to keep mining it:

In general, you are looking at a minimum of $40/day for a 5Mh/S rig. (I'm being conservative, plenty of coins give more than this, but it's what is the reasonable minimum).

So when TOP goes down to 1 coin/block, it generates 1440 coins per day. Lets say we want a network hash of 200Mh/S in order to stay at a level where the coin is still trustworthy (even though that's still quite risky). If that's the case, then 5/200 or 1/40 of 1440 must be worth $40 for people to mine. So each coin will have to be worth $0.9.

Is this possible? No way in hell. That would put the market cap of TOP at 10 Billion USD. Unless top becomes as powerful as bitcoin, it will never reach that price.

Lets look at it from a different angle. What if TOP reaches the market cap of DOGE at $50 million. Then each TOP will be worth roughly 4.5cents. In this case, all the TOP generated per day at 1 coin/block will be worth about $65. That means the network hash IN THE EVENT that TOP gets to be as popular as DOGE, is going to be at most 8Mh/S, which is obviously disasterous.

Both of these point to the same conclusion. In a couple more block halvings, what we will see is that the dev will choose to hard fork the coin to fix this issue. The current system is a death sentence for the coin no matter what happens.

Well put. Maybe this will educate somebody about what's actually going to happen. Seems like it hasn't helped some people though...

[alquinte]

ITT: People who don't understand economics.

ITT: Vague non-sequitirs.

Maybe I can clarify his point then:

What makes a coin valuable? Supply and demand. How much supply is there already of TOP? Just over 9 billion. How much demand is there for TOP? Not particularly much right now. This isn't food or even electronics. When coins are produced, they generally stay forever. Sure a small amount gets lost from people who lost their wallets etc, but it's not that significant a quantity. Functionally, coins stay forever. What does this mean for TOP? It means that it doesn't particularly matter that it will be really hard to mine more later, there's already so much that the supply is extremely large. In fact, we are already basically at the point that mining barely matters at all. By the next halving, it will be practically pointless to mine without an extreme hash drop.

So why is this unique for TOP? Because it reaches max supply quickly, and effectively stabilizes at that supply. The real question is will demand rise? Because of the stability of supply for TOP, any demand increases will not be diluted by inflation, what you see is effectively what you get in terms of TOP, it's very nature is deflationary if you get in past a certain point. Does price HAVE to rise? Not at all, demand could drop and we could see prices fall to 1 satoshi even or worthless (this will likely happen if hash rate goes too far down, people will have less faith in the security of the coin since 51% attacks will be easier). Could it rise? Sure, if demand rises then prices will go up proportional to demand, since there's no inflationary pressure.

The point is, TOP is designed so that if it gets a lot of hype, prices will rise very quickly. If there is no hype, it will likely die just as quickly because the hash rate will drop below a point where anybody is willing to trust the coin anymore. Effectively, in 1 week we will know what will happen to TOP.

Thank you, you've outlined the situation very succinctly. TopCoin will be made or broken by it's community.

I actually have a huge problem with one of the designs of top. The drop to 1 coin/block makes it so that it's almost guarranteed to die in 2 months time. Lets take a look at what miners expect in a coin to keep mining it:

In general, you are looking at a minimum of $40/day for a 5Mh/S rig. (I'm being conservative, plenty of coins give more than this, but it's what is the reasonable minimum).

So when TOP goes down to 1 coin/block, it generates 1440 coins per day. Lets say we want a network hash of 200Mh/S in order to stay at a level where the coin is still trustworthy (even though that's still quite risky). If that's the case, then 5/200 or 1/40 of 1440 must be worth $40 for people to mine. So each coin will have to be worth $0.9.

Is this possible? No way in hell. That would put the market cap of TOP at 10 Billion USD. Unless top becomes as powerful as bitcoin, it will never reach that price.

Lets look at it from a different angle. What if TOP reaches the market cap of DOGE at $50 million. Then each TOP will be worth roughly 4.5cents. In this case, all the TOP generated per day at 1 coin/block will be worth about $65. That means the network hash IN THE EVENT that TOP gets to be as popular as DOGE, is going to be at most 8Mh/S, which is obviously disasterous.

Both of these point to the same conclusion. In a couple more block halvings, what we will see is that the dev will choose to hard fork the coin to fix this issue. The current system is a death sentence for the coin no matter what happens.

You're completely right. I just haven't done the math to see how bad it truly is. Perhaps at that point people will be mining purely for the security of the coin. Although that is completely wishful thinking considering how little time topcoin has to build a good miner base. Also an important point to keep in mind at this point is that although 1440 new top coins are coming in, more than that is going to the miners due to transaction fees. I don't know to what degree that will affect the numbers though. I would like to hear the dev's thoughts on this problem.

[atheistftwins]

I actually completely did my math wrong, I assumed 1.1 billion TOP when it's 11 billion TOP. So everything is actually 10 times WORSE. If we reach market cap of DOGE, we would only have 800Kh/S of network hash, which is a SINGLE GPU.

In order to not die at 1coin/block, we'd still have to reach the market cap of BTC or 10 BILLION USD.

Everyone please realize how INSANE this sounds.

We need to set the minimum block payment at 10,000/block. It's a very small percent per day, only 0.13% of total, but it will keep the coin from dying.

[SackofBits]

I actually completely did my math wrong, I assumed 1.1 billion TOP when it's 11 billion TOP. So everything is actually 10 times WORSE. If we reach market cap of DOGE, we would only have 800Kh/S of network hash, which is a SINGLE GPU.

In order to not die at 1coin/block, we'd still have to reach the market cap of BTC or 10 BILLION USD.

Everyone please realize how INSANE this sounds.

We need to set the minimum block payment at 10,000/block. It's a very small percent per day, only 0.13% of total, but it will keep the coin from dying.

Maybe dev will consider changing it? I hope he will come share his thought on this.

[ManOnTheMoon]

pump to 16 satoshi announced 

Let's get it there and then dump this shit coin to die in a cryptoditch.

[CosaNostra]

Excuse me. What are you waiting for, Christmas?

I have topcoin.conf in my ".../Appdata/Roaming/TopCoin/" folder.

topcoin.conf:
rpcuser=username
rpcpassword=password
rpcallowip=localhost
rpcport=18382
port=18381
gen=0
server=1
addnode=219.90.254.80
addnode=122.62.19.98
addnode=101.98.184.135
addnode=78.51.74.99
addnode=14.201.151.38

(tried several other configs too)

Disabled Firewall and waiting but nothing happens.
Anyone got an Idea?

[slntdth7]

pump to 16 satoshi announced 

Let's get it there and then dump this shit coin to die in a cryptoditch.

announced by who? You?

Source?

I can easily say "Pump announced to 57 satoshi!!!!"

Plus many of these pumpers use Cryptsy etc....rare to see them on swisscex or cryptorush

[thinkgreen11]

Excuse me. What are you waiting for, Christmas?

I have topcoin.conf in my ".../Appdata/Roaming/TopCoin/" folder.

topcoin.conf:
rpcuser=username
rpcpassword=password
rpcallowip=localhost
rpcport=18382
port=18381
gen=0
server=1
addnode=219.90.254.80
addnode=122.62.19.98
addnode=101.98.184.135
addnode=78.51.74.99
addnode=14.201.151.38

(tried several other configs too)

Disabled Firewall and waiting but nothing happens.
Anyone got an Idea?

Seems like we have some kind of joker here.
Im obviously waiting for a sync with the topcoin network.
Some guys reported they had their wallet open for multiple hours and suddenly it started to sync so that's what I am waiting for.

If you have nothing helpful to say and feel the need to provocate because of own ignorance just gtfo.

[slntdth7]

Excuse me. What are you waiting for, Christmas?

I have topcoin.conf in my ".../Appdata/Roaming/TopCoin/" folder.

topcoin.conf:
rpcuser=username
rpcpassword=password
rpcallowip=localhost
rpcport=18382
port=18381
gen=0
server=1
addnode=219.90.254.80
addnode=122.62.19.98
addnode=101.98.184.135
addnode=78.51.74.99
addnode=14.201.151.38

(tried several other configs too)

Disabled Firewall and waiting but nothing happens.
Anyone got an Idea?

Seems like we have some kind of joker here.
Im obviously waiting for a sync with the topcoin network.
Some guys reported they had their wallet open for multiple hours and suddenly it started to sync so that's what I am waiting for.

If you have nothing helpful to say and feel the need to provocate because of own ignorance just gtfo.

weird, I didnt add anything to CONF. downloaded and ran it right away, connected to network in 30 secs.

[SackofBits]

what price will top reach before it's the end?

[thinkgreen11]

I actually completely did my math wrong, I assumed 1.1 billion TOP when it's 11 billion TOP. So everything is actually 10 times WORSE. If we reach market cap of DOGE, we would only have 800Kh/S of network hash, which is a SINGLE GPU.

In order to not die at 1coin/block, we'd still have to reach the market cap of BTC or 10 BILLION USD.

Everyone please realize how INSANE this sounds.

We need to set the minimum block payment at 10,000/block. It's a very small percent per day, only 0.13% of total, but it will keep the coin from dying.

Maybe dev will consider changing it? I hope he will come share his thought on this.

Don't you guys think the developer thought about this in the creation process of this coin?
I think he just aimed for quick money, he won't care about the future of this coin if he leaves with full pockets.

[ManOnTheMoon]

pump to 16 satoshi announced 

Let's get it there and then dump this shit coin to die in a cryptoditch.

announced by who? You?

Source?

I can easily say "Pump announced to 57 satoshi!!!!"

Plus many of these pumpers use Cryptsy etc....rare to see them on swisscex or cryptorush

Wolong announced in irc.

wolong.ru/pump

[slntdth7]

pump to 16 satoshi announced 

Let's get it there and then dump this shit coin to die in a cryptoditch.

announced by who? You?

Source?

I can easily say "Pump announced to 57 satoshi!!!!"

Plus many of these pumpers use Cryptsy etc....rare to see them on swisscex or cryptorush

Wolong announced in irc.

wolong.ru/pump

still see no source/link that works

[atheistftwins]

I actually completely did my math wrong, I assumed 1.1 billion TOP when it's 11 billion TOP. So everything is actually 10 times WORSE. If we reach market cap of DOGE, we would only have 800Kh/S of network hash, which is a SINGLE GPU.

In order to not die at 1coin/block, we'd still have to reach the market cap of BTC or 10 BILLION USD.

Everyone please realize how INSANE this sounds.

We need to set the minimum block payment at 10,000/block. It's a very small percent per day, only 0.13% of total, but it will keep the coin from dying.

Maybe dev will consider changing it? I hope he will come share his thought on this.

Don't you guys think the developer thought about this in the creation process of this coin?
I think he just aimed for quick money, he won't care about the future of this coin if he leaves with full pockets.

Great, then he will definitely hard fork it. It's doubtful to get past where it is now (4-5 satoshi) with this hanging over the coin. Once he fixes it, the coin will surge providing a perfect opportunity to dump. If he was smart, he'd definitely make this fix.

[slntdth7]

I actually completely did my math wrong, I assumed 1.1 billion TOP when it's 11 billion TOP. So everything is actually 10 times WORSE. If we reach market cap of DOGE, we would only have 800Kh/S of network hash, which is a SINGLE GPU.

In order to not die at 1coin/block, we'd still have to reach the market cap of BTC or 10 BILLION USD.

Everyone please realize how INSANE this sounds.

We need to set the minimum block payment at 10,000/block. It's a very small percent per day, only 0.13% of total, but it will keep the coin from dying.

Maybe dev will consider changing it? I hope he will come share his thought on this.

Don't you guys think the developer thought about this in the creation process of this coin?
I think he just aimed for quick money, he won't care about the future of this coin if he leaves with full pockets.

Great, then he will definitely hard fork it. It's doubtful to get past where it is now (4-5 satoshi) with this hanging over the coin. Once he fixes it, the coin will surge providing a perfect opportunity to dump. If he was smart, he'd definitely make this fix.

Has anyone looked at the source? Is this some coingen coin or was it actually coded by him?

Just curious, as if it was just some easily created coin maybe he doesn't know how to hard fork? I hope not....still waiting to hear from dev

[SackofBits]

I believe it was created on coingen