[ActiveMining] Official Shareholder Discussion Thread [Moderated]

[zumzero]

Well, real reporters typically talk to multiple sources, Jasun7211. I'm interested in speaking with someone who has (apparently) lost money in this endeavor.

Thanks for the other thread, gogxmagog. Hadn't seen that one. Yeah, if I write something I would be reaching out to the Securities Division, as I said in my last post.

its january 8th 2015, my mistake.
please do go to MSD, and the hearings. i would love to hear what is going on. there is precious little in here but speculation. although a few users here who lost big will give very interesting interviews, a few are shills. i would avoid zumzero, most of all. he has vouched for ken so strongly, even when everything points to total failure, that many assume he is under the employ of ken, if not a relative, or even ken himself. the whole thing is shady and the truth is in short supply.

Yes, avoid zumzero.  He MUST be family or even Ken himself.  If not then he's a paid shill.  Or maybe he's satoshi.  He might even be a federal agent who has infiltrated the Bitcoin community.

Move aside Donnie Brasco!  

Seriously though, you guys need to let go and move on with your lives.  They aren't going to lock Ken up and throw away the keys.  You are all deluded if you think there will be a criminal prosecution so stop listening to Blahgraphics propaganda.

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[Flashman]

To be completely honest, I thought of myself as a pretty good judge of character once I met someone. Meeting with Terrahash and Active Mining in person, shaking these guys hands and physically seeing at least what appeared to be a functioning mirage of a business and then still basically being scammed by them really put things in perspective.

So by your own logic, you were incompetent and scammed us by reassuring us they were "legit"

By that logic, you believing they were "legit" and ordering/investing in them means you were incompetent and scammed yourself?

Come on Flash, you might want to ask Ice for tips on how to twist words. He's got it down to a science.

I'm just saying that if Ken's judgement wrt Avalon Chip deal, eAsic deal etc was incompetent and scammy, then retrospectively all subsequently discovered to be bad calls by anyone ever are subject to the same standard.

My POV is that any hardware venture in this space has been a coin flip 50/50 shot at best, even with the best information available at the time, and Ken happened to throw 3 tails in a row.

In your case, you doubled down on one toss, because both Terrahash and AM were reliant on timely delivery of Avalon Chips. Either could have been Steve Jobs or Bill Gates side project and it still wouldn't have come out good.

[Bargraphics]

To be quite fair I believe we're rehashing the same argument that's been going on and that sides are picked so this is simply a waste of time. However, here we go!

I'm just saying that if Ken's judgement wrt Avalon Chip deal, eAsic deal etc was incompetent and scammy, then retrospectively all subsequently discovered to be bad calls by anyone ever are subject to the same standard.

The "Avalon Chip Deal" you speak of was a very small portion of this business and most if not everyone "Invested" due to having a working functional chip not made by a 3rd party. I actually didn't even list this bad call in my quick breakdown of Ken's "Bad Calls" a few posts before this.

The eASIC deal never happened because Ken's code didn't work and by the time they fixed it, it was too late so he scrapped it.

Since I brought up Terrahash, they may have been similar to this venture in that it may not have been a scam at the beginning but because of all of the failures they then took the money and ran. Ultimately we will never know if it was a scam from the start or not and to be honest I don't care. What matters is the end result.

My POV is that any hardware venture in this space has been a coin flip 50/50 shot at best, even with the best information available at the time, and Ken happened to throw 3 tails in a row.

Business isn't based on luck, purchasing/investing in this space is. Ken sold investors that he was able to make good decisions and see them through, obviously this was not the case based on performance.

In your case, you doubled down on one toss, because both Terrahash and AM were reliant on timely delivery of Avalon Chips. Either could have been Steve Jobs or Bill Gates side project and it still wouldn't have come out good.

AMC was not "reliant on timely delivery of Avalon Chips". This was a small part of the big picture that was sold to investors. It's good that it failed because it would have just given Ken more money to lose/funnel to his family.

As far as your Steve Jobs or Bill Gates references, you are now getting into the thought process that in an alternate universe dead and alive (respectively) billionaires would take somehow ask for pre-orders and/or illegally offer a security. You do see where I'm going with this right? It's useless to use "What-Ifs" or hypotheticals to prove a point, especially in the Bitcoin space. Everything in this space should be based on performance and end result.

[zumzero]

To be quite fair I believe we're rehashing the same argument that's been going on and that sides are picked so this is simply a waste of time. However, here we go!

or

We're going round and round in circles so everyone stop the discussion so that I can have the last word.  Here it is!

[Flashman]

and/or illegally offer a security.

You were somehow under the impression that you were buying into a Wall Street blue chip?

Anyone with half a brain knows this went from unregulated/off-radar to grey area to SEC pwns all. At the outset, it was I believe actually impossible to register a security denominated in crypto funds, as it was impossible at the time to get a money transmitters license for exchanges.

Unfortunately while crypto-currency to fiat exchanges have been offered a clear path to compliance as regulations have crystallised or been clarified, securities have not.

So, illegally offering a security, questionable, continuing to operate security and making available to US customers after about October 2013 guilty-ish... but then what was the "moral" thing to do? Forced refunds at that point would have pissed people off also, you can bet that someone would have sued then.

[Bargraphics]

You were somehow under the impression that you were buying into a Wall Street blue chip?

Getting a little off topic now. What I or anyone else "thought" we were buying into doesn't matter legally speaking. I specifically said he offered an illegal security.

Anyone with half a brain knows this went from unregulated/off-radar to grey area to SEC pwns all. At the outset, it was I believe actually impossible to register a security denominated in crypto funds, as it was impossible at the time to get a money transmitters license for exchanges.

First of all everything is regulated in the US in some way or another. If it's a grey area then that means it's illegal until clarified most likely and if you believe it's not illegal... well then you get to fight the good fight in court (Like Ken is doing) once they come after you to see if you were right.

It was never impossible to get a Money Transmission license in the US for Crypto Currency.. This statement is simply wrong. It was difficult due to teaching regulators what it was you were trying to do and how that falls into money transmission. To even further this point, they would even tell you if you needed one or not, if there wasn't enough information to go by.

How do I know this? I have a pending Money Transmission license currently and have spent the last 7 months doing research in this field.

Unfortunately while crypto-currency to fiat exchanges have been offered a clear path to compliance as regulations have crystallised or been clarified, securities have not.

Refusing to work within the systems rules does not constitute an unclear path. If you wanted to open a security you have to follow the rules just like everyone else does. If people want to buy shares using Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency then you can as long as that's accepted. If you are not sure then you need to ask the regulators for guidance and get a statement from them. As stated above if you want to go into uncharted territory with the words "Grey Area" as your legal defence, good luck.

So, illegally offering a security, questionable, continuing to operate security and making available to US customers after about October 2013 guilty-ish... but then what was the "moral" thing to do? Forced refunds at that point would have pissed people off also, you can bet that someone would have sued then.

Moral thing to do? Why even bring up something so arbitrary.
What is the legal thing to do? Once you realize you are doing something potentially illegal because that "grey area" isn't so grey anymore then you should reach out to regulators/lawyers on how to restructure. You may still get sued but ultimately you were the one who chose to operate in a "grey area" and took that chance. You would likely get sued either way, by people or by the government.

[Flashman]

It was never impossible to get a Money Transmission license in the US for Crypto Currency.. This statement is simply wrong. It was difficult due to teaching regulators what it was you were trying to do and how that falls into money transmission. To even further this point, they would even tell you if you needed one or not, if there wasn't enough information to go by.

How do I know this? I have a pending Money Transmission license currently and have spent the last 7 months doing research in this field.

Do you actually have a sense of how things change over time? Everybody having a suspicion they would need a license were getting blown off, told they did not need one, up to about mid 2013. Then we had the first official opinion of it being "money" and it was a light switch, now everyone had to have one.

[Bargraphics]

Do you actually have a sense of how things change over time? Everybody having a suspicion they would need a license were getting blown off, told they did not need one, up to about mid 2013. Then we had the first official opinion of it being "money" and it was a light switch, now everyone had to have one.

You are throwing words out here with no backup.

Everybody having a suspicion they would need a license were getting blown off, told they did not need one, up to about mid 2013.

If this is true then they would have a statement from a regulator saying they didn't need one and wouldn't have any issues. But I assume you are implying that they reached out to a lawyer and not an actual authority or simply asked someone they thought would tell them what they wanted to hear.

If they never received a statement then again they took the "grey area" defence stance. That's their risk.

Then we had the first official opinion of it being "money" and it was a light switch, now everyone had to have one.

Exactly, and everyone that thought their grey area defence would work scrambled to be compliant thinking their illegal activity wouldn't be retroactively considered.  

[knybe]

so this scumbag, Ken Slaughter, is going to get away with all of it?

I didn't have a ton invested in this but I know some of you had quite a lot tied up in this sham... and no one is gonna lift a finger? or at the very least pay the slaughter scammers a visit?

I did far more than "lift a finger."  I repeatedly tried to warn you and the others back in August 2013.

You chose to Ignore me:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252531.msg2984477#msg2984477

How did that work out for you?   

Ken is going to get away with the BTC because people like knybe refuse to listen to their superiors.

Oh brother stop being such a fag. I lost maybe $2k on this joke, chump change. Why don't you go back to bashing people who lost way more... You heartless/useless jackoff.

[HardwareReviewer]

so this scumbag, Ken Slaughter, is going to get away with all of it?

I didn't have a ton invested in this but I know some of you had quite a lot tied up in this sham... and no one is gonna lift a finger? or at the very least pay the slaughter scammers a visit?

I did far more than "lift a finger."  I repeatedly tried to warn you and the others back in August 2013.

You chose to Ignore me:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252531.msg2984477#msg2984477

How did that work out for you?   

Ken is going to get away with the BTC because people like knybe refuse to listen to their superiors.

Oh brother stop being such a fag. I lost maybe $2k on this joke, chump change. Why don't you go back to bashing people who lost way more... You heartless/useless jackoff.

The sad thing is, he did go back to bashing people who lost way more

[Jasun7211]

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/12/12/bitcoin-miner-butterfly-labs-reopens.html

The trend is our friend......Open that Slaughter house back up and turn those machines back on......turn those machines back on.

[PurpleTentacle]

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/12/12/bitcoin-miner-butterfly-labs-reopens.html

The trend is our friend......Open that Slaughter house back up and turn those machines back on......turn those machines back on.

How's the quantum electricity thingy going?

[Jasun7211]

not bad.  I haven,t had time to work on it lately.  I got a side gig at Coinbase, but I have an electrical engineer buddy who is taking it on from there.  I'll let you know how it goes, but they are talking with Torelco in NJ to gt these things up and running asap.

[gogxmagog]

7 days until the hearing. Is anyone here able to attend? See if you can record it, even audio would be cool.

[Surf Capital Management]

7 days until the hearing. Is anyone here able to attend? See if you can record it, even audio would be cool.

Are the meetings public? I'd like to make sure that the meeting will occur and not be continued like the last few have. Does anyone know if the mining farm is still up and running, like is there a link to a real-time hash rate?

[klondike_bar]

Does anyone know if the mining farm is still up and running, like is there a link to a real-time hash rate?

My guess is yes, and then no. Remember that Ken was running 737GH of avalon equipment since 2013, and virtually zero evidence or profits from this were passed on. The several TH of hashfast boards he was running were either liquidated or have been running this whole time, and I will not be surprised when the proof of what was done with them is either flimsy or reeks of fixing the books.

[gogxmagog]

7 days until the hearing. Is anyone here able to attend? See if you can record it, even audio would be cool.

Are the meetings public? I'd like to make sure that the meeting will occur and not be continued like the last few have. Does anyone know if the mining farm is still up and running, like is there a link to a real-time hash rate?

how would you "make sure" the hearing does not get continued? I'm curious.

I remember a news team went to Activemining to do a story and there was a video of ken running 3 avalons. i never saw any evidense of the hashfast boards running save for the listed hashrate online. never saw any of the btc.

ken is a devious bastard. I hope they throw the book at him.

[Flashman]

Remember that Ken was running 737GH of avalon equipment since 2013, and virtually zero evidence or profits from this were passed on

Unfortunately for you, I do remember, the Avalons paid dividends from early summer 2013 through to Bitfunder failing.

[gogxmagog]

You're right. I shouldn't post at4 am. Still... The profits were negligible. and now i'm recalling some video of racks. that didnt work out too well either. anyone got a copy of the dividend history? I recall he returned IPO price only 0.25% or some such. ? ?

[kleeck]

News on the hearing progress in case anyone is interested but not in touch with the MSD.

Hagerty, Shawn to me
12:02 PM EST, Jan. 7, 2015

Mr. Kleeck,

No hearing was held yesterday and it has yet to be rescheduled. Please check back with me in a couple of weeks. I may have more information by then.

Thanks,

Shawn

Cheers!