Supreme Court pick Brett Kavanaugh

[Flying Hellfish]

BTW

Has anyone opened a bet on the confirmation in the gambling section ?

Wud love to see the odds.

LOL I have 2 sides bets with some friends online and one of them I got 2 to 1 odds cause I bet before any of the new allegations broke! I bet against Kavanaugh's nom making it through the senate BTW!  Both of them are just for a couple beers but I can't wait to enjoy a couple free cold ones when he gets beat!

[1714864724]

1714864724

[CoinCube]

Well if Trump nominates another serial rapist and liar then its not hard to imagine them not getting a (if they lose the senate) lame duck nom through lol!

And with thus deceleration of guilt you along with much of the irrational left have entirely abandoned the presumption innocence so fundamental for society to exist as anything other then a tyranny of the powerful.

...

The right is allowed to assert Kavanaugh is innocent but the left can't claim Kavanaugh is guilty or we broke the world LOL fucking hypocrites.

Congratulations to the right for trying to subvert due process by assuming every white christian male is innocent and an investigation is never required when the white christian male denies it, you have become part of the reason the world is laughing at America!

You unintentionally got this part exactly right.

Everyone liberals and conservatives, Christians and atheists, black and white are entitled to the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof always rests on the accuser as it must.

If you abandon this principle you go a long way towards breaking the foundation that makes freedom possible.

Investigation is fine provided it is a genuine search for truth. The Senate should have carried it out as they are the ones empowered by the constitution with the power of the subpoena and the duty to vet nominees but if they want to outsource this role to the FBI that is their right.

The article below highlights the importance of this issue. I quoted a small amount of it below but the entire piece is worth reading.

Kavanaugh: America’s Dreyfus Affair
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/kavanaugh-america-dreyfus-affair/comment-page-2/

It’s not that I believe Kavanaugh is innocent. I think it is possible that he is guilty of what Ford accuses him of. But I believe he is not guilty, in the sense that there is not nearly enough evidence to judge him guilty of the accusation. Ford has nothing to support her accusation but her accusation. Kavanaugh strongly denies it, as you know, and he has offered evidence (e.g., his summer calendar) that he could not have been where he was supposed to have been. And, none of the people Ford has said could corroborate the event say they were there.

If we allow Kavanaugh’s nomination to go down on the basis of unsupported accusations, then we set a terrible precedent. We give a veto to anyone who makes an accusation against a nominee, however groundless. What strikes me is that liberals assume his guilt because he belongs to a class, and has an identity, that they despise: upper-class white male conservative. If you read commentary from liberals on social media and elsewhere, it is shocking how openly they dismiss Kavanaugh’s defense because he is white and male and “privileged” — never mind that Ford comes from and lives in the same social class. Liberals would quite rightly reject the idea that a witness deserves to be disbelieved because she is poor, black, and female. By many liberals, Kavanaugh’s race, sex, and class are held to be evidence of his guilt. This should not be all that surprising to people who have been following campus political discourse, but it seems that now liberals — elite ones, anyway, in media and politics — have turned the public square into the Oberlin campus.

What was so galvanizing to many of us yesterday, hearing Kavanaugh’s opening statement, and seeing Sen. Lindsey Graham’s passionate defense of Kavanaugh, was that this is not a man who is willing to passively accept the fate that liberals have decreed for deplorable people like him. He may yet go down, but he will not have gone down without a fight. I thought last night that maybe, just maybe, this will be a turning point, a point in which not just conservatives, but all people — even old-fashioned liberals — will stand up to this ideological madness, this bullying.
...
That’s why defending Kavanaugh is not strictly about defending Kavanaugh. It’s about fighting the mob, and defending some sort of rational process by which we discern truth and falsity, guilt and innocence. It’s about standing up to the mob — on Capitol Hill, on campuses, in newsrooms, and in elite institutions — that determine guilt based on identity. As the reader above said, this is about self-protection — not in a selfish sense, but in the (old-fashioned liberal) sense of protecting the processes that are our best chance of establishing fairness. I have sons, and I have a daughter. If any of them are ever sexually assaulted, or are accused of sexual assault, I want them to be treated fairly. I do not want my children to be privileged or un-privileged, based on the color of their skin, their sex, their social class, their religion, or anything else.

There was a time when this was the goal that most Americans aspired to

[Quickseller]

Kavanaugh is not on trial, so there is no presumption of innocence here.

This statement shows how much of a bad person you are Suchmoon. I am using your real name because you emailed me giving me permission to use your real life identity and said you were going to delete your message from your inbox -- based on your own standards, the fact that we are not in court means it is your responsibility to disprove this if you want your name removed. You are lucky I am not accusing you of running some kind of sex trafficking ring years ago, because by your own standards it would be acceptable for you to lose your job, and ability to earn a living when you cannot disprove this accusation that has zero evidence.

The principal of the presumption of innocence a the bedrock of anglo american jurisprudence, going back hundreds of years. This is such an important principal that the UN has declared this a human right, that nearly all modern democracies have established this as a right in their constitutions.

If your young child claimed that his sibling hit him without being provoked, you would not punish his brother without gathering some evidence to support this. If an employee claims her coworker stole money from the employer, an employer would not fire said employee without verifying evidence a theft actually occurred and that the employee is responsible. If someone claims your significant other is cheating on you, then you would not end the relationship without some form of corroboration and/or admission of guilt. If you claim you are the owner of a specific bank account, a bank employee will not allow you to withdraw funds from said account without verifying this is true.

Anyone who claims that one does not deserve the presumption of innocence is not just wrong, they are unethical, immoral, and should be shammed. Shame on you Suchmoon!

[Flying Hellfish]

Everyone liberals and conservatives, Christians and atheists, black and white are entitled to the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof always rests on the accuser as it must.

And yet you wouldn't allow an investigation for the facts to be gathered because he denies it.  The same people that are entitled to the presumption of innocence are also entitled to due process...  No one has locked up Judge Kvanaugh because of what Dr. Ford is alleging, if he was in jail rotting away you would have a really really good point.

You keep trying to say due process (ie an investigation) is a violation of the presumption of innocence is rather ridiculous because an investigation can only help determine the innocence of a person.

Some how presumption of innocence means never investigation something if its denied or unless DNA style proof can be presented by the accuser, how ridiculous is that LOL.

How is anyone supposed to objectively asses any statements for truth if an investigation is suppressed because he said it didn't happen.

[Quickseller]

And yet the entire right has said Dr. Ford is lying, a dem plant to subvert Kavanaugh from his days as a bush staffer.  They don't believe her and fought tooth and nail to stop the actual truth from coming out.  The right is allowed to assert Kavanaugh is innocent but the left can't claim Kavanaugh is guilty or we broke the world LOL fucking hypocrites.

You are wrong. Kavanaugh is presumed innocent until there is evidence he is guilty. It is always the responsibility of the accuser to prove their assertion.  This is exactly why people ignore outrageous allegations all the time.

Further, Republicans have not fought tooth and nail to stop Ford from being heard. They immidiately reached out to her lawyers to arrange for her to speak to the Senate. It was those on the Left that were calling to delay her testimony, and were criticizing Republicans for "bullying" her into testifying.

There is evidence that Ford is lying, for one the fact that her story has changed over time, and secondly that all of the people she claims were at the gathering she was alleged assaulted at, say that no such gathering ever happened. 

[Flying Hellfish]

If your young child claimed that his sibling hit him without being provoked, you would not punish his brother without gathering some evidence to support this. If an employee claims her coworker stole money from the employer, an employer would not fire said employee without verifying evidence a theft actually occurred and that the employee is responsible. If someone claims your significant other is cheating on you, then you would not end the relationship without some form of corroboration and/or admission of guilt. If you claim you are the owner of a specific bank account, a bank employee will not allow you to withdraw funds from said account without verifying this is true.

You know what helps gather evidence of these wrong doings after the allegation by the victims are asserted?

AN INVESTIGATION LOL

Finally something you have written that makes sense, so why no investigation to gather evidence in this case then!

[Quickseller]

If your young child claimed that his sibling hit him without being provoked, you would not punish his brother without gathering some evidence to support this. If an employee claims her coworker stole money from the employer, an employer would not fire said employee without verifying evidence a theft actually occurred and that the employee is responsible. If someone claims your significant other is cheating on you, then you would not end the relationship without some form of corroboration and/or admission of guilt. If you claim you are the owner of a specific bank account, a bank employee will not allow you to withdraw funds from said account without verifying this is true.

You know what helps gather evidence of these wrong doings after the allegation by the victims are asserted?

AN INVESTIGATION LOL

Finally something you have written that makes sense, so why no investigation to gather evidence in this case then!

It is too bad that Senate staffers have already investigated all of the allegations, as has the media, both of which have been unable to verify any of the underlying facts, in other words, they have found the accusations to be baseless.  Senate democrat staffers have not participated in said investigations, despite being invited to do so, because Democrats do not care about the truth.

[suchmoon]

Kavanaugh is not on trial, so there is no presumption of innocence here.

This statement shows how much of a bad person you are

Defamation is a civil matter and the burden of proof is on the person being defamed. That's not something I invented. If Kavanaugh wants to sue Ford I don't see anything stopping him.

Not sure if knowingly breaking forum rules is the best way to prove your point here but whatever floats your boat.

If your young child claimed that his sibling hit him without being provoked, you would not punish his brother without gathering some evidence to support this. If an employee claims her coworker stole money from the employer, an employer would not fire said employee without verifying evidence a theft actually occurred and that the employee is responsible. If someone claims your significant other is cheating on you, then you would not end the relationship without some form of corroboration and/or admission of guilt.

Quite often decisions in such cases are based on verbal allegations and rebuttals with no witnesses or physical evidence. It might involve behavior patterns as well. Where exactly were you trying to go with this? Other than showing that you never had a child, a job, or a relationship...

[eddie13]

Trump has something up his sleeve with the whole ordering the FBI investigation thing.. He is greatly underestimated..

My senses tingle that the findings of the investigation will be used to prove something, something that will hurt the left..

I hope he can use it to prove the uncovering of who all is behind the smear attempt and nail them to the wall..

Say they can prove some leftist politicians knew it was a false accusation all along? Or that they cooberated with some others about pushing this or a different false accusation, what sort of charges could they get her for?

Sen. Tom Cotton said Sunday that Sen. Dianne Feinstein’s office will be investigated to determine whether or not they leaked the confidential letter from Christine Blasey Ford that detailed allegations of sexual misconduct by Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/09/30/cotton-says-feinstein-will-be-investigated-over-leaked-letter-by-kavanaugh-accuser.html

Under investigation already..

This FBI investigation, they have already investigate Kav multiple times, now they are investigating this accusation, hopefully investigating the accusers and their co-conspirators, their might be something to find..

[Flying Hellfish]

blah blah anything to avoid the FBI investigating the matter blah blah blah

I made it much more concise for you this way!

[Spendulus]

....
There is evidence that Ford is lying, for one the fact that her story has changed over time, and secondly that all of the people she claims were at the gathering she was alleged assaulted at, say that no such gathering ever happened. 

If she's lying she's not a very good liar. More likely she's just confused about those events in the dim past.

....It is too bad that Senate staffers have already investigated all of the allegations, as has the media, both of which have been unable to verify any of the underlying facts, in other words, they have found the accusations to be baseless.  Senate democrat staffers have not participated in said investigations, despite being invited to do so, because Democrats do not care about the truth.

After all this is said and done, and no confirmation of Ford's accusations is found, these very Democrats are still going to vote against Kavanaugh. Every last one of them.

[Flying Hellfish]

This FBI investigation, they have already investigate Kav multiple times, now they are investigating this accusation, hopefully investigating the accusers and their co-conspirators, their might be something to find..

Finally someone from the right is making sense if this is a dem conspiracy you should be demanding the FBI investigate this so you can provide evidence of the plot or at the very least clear this poor innocent man and spare his family the humiliation of trial by media!  This would make a red wave almost a certainty!!!  Just imagine a president's party picking up seats in the MT's its so rare!

Unless of course it isn't a dem plot and he's has shit to hide!

[Spendulus]

This FBI investigation, they have already investigate Kav multiple times, now they are investigating this accusation, hopefully investigating the accusers and their co-conspirators, their might be something to find..

Finally someone from the right is making sense if this is a dem conspiracy you should be demanding the FBI investigate this so you can provide evidence of the plot or at the very least clear this poor innocent man and spare his family the humiliation...

Provide evidence of the plot? Why should that be someone "from the right?" All the left doesn't care? They may not have been the conspirator or the leaker, but they are on board with the events?

Why should Kav have to prove himself innocent?

Who has the burden of proof?

Due process is at the center of our entire concepts of justice. Not just in courtroom.

Does everyone have to fear unproved and unprovable accusations, if they don't comply with demands from a corrupt powerful group?

[CoinCube]

Everyone liberals and conservatives, Christians and atheists, black and white are entitled to the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof always rests on the accuser as it must.

And yet you wouldn't allow an investigation for the facts to be gathered because he denies it.  The same people that are entitled to the presumption of innocence are also entitled to due process...  

How is anyone supposed to objectively asses any statements for truth if an investigation is suppressed because he said it didn't happen.

I agree with you that accusers have the right to be heard. I never said these accusations should not be investigated. Any possibility credible accusation deserves investigation while holding firmly to the principle that the accused is innocent until proven guilty.

The constitution clearly assigns this duty to the Senate which also has the power of the subpoena to carry it out. It is the job of the Senate and only the Senate to determine what investigation is warranted, see that it is carried out, and weigh the evidence.

The Senate has requested a supplemental FBI investigation to help them in their decision making and that is underway.

[Spendulus]

....
The Senate has requested a supplemental FBI investigation to help them in their decision making and that is underway.

I think people may not understand the limits of "an FBI investigation" in this case. The FBI cannot issue subpoenas, the Senate committee can. The FBI cannot compel people to testify. Without subpoena power, the FBI cannot get phone records, email records or bank records.

The four people named by Ford have already produced sworn statements that they were not there, that the party did not happen, blah-blah-blah. They cannot change those statements without being under penalty of perjury.

The bet that should be made at this junction is whether one of the major Democratic operatives, such as Creepy Porn Lawyer, comes up with yet another delaying tactic at the last hour of the last day of the FBI investigation. You know they will.

[suchmoon]

The four people named by Ford have already produced sworn statements that they were not there, that the party did not happen, blah-blah-blah. They cannot change those statements without being under penalty of perjury.

Technically they can. The statements were mostly along the lines of "I don't remember". They can start remembering and that not necessarily perjury. Or for example if the FBI uncovers more specific details such as the date/location/etc and asks more specific questions then witnesses can provide more specific answers without contradicting their previous statements made about a more vague allegation.

[Spendulus]

The four people named by Ford have already produced sworn statements that they were not there, that the party did not happen, blah-blah-blah. They cannot change those statements without being under penalty of perjury.

Technically they can. The statements were mostly along the lines of "I don't remember". They can start remembering and that not necessarily perjury. Or for example if the FBI uncovers more specific details such as the date/location/etc and asks more specific questions then witnesses can provide more specific answers without contradicting their previous statements made about a more vague allegation.

Good luck with that!

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2018-09-18%20Judge%20to%20Grassley,%20Feinstein%20(Kavanaugh%20Nomination).pdf

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2018-09-22%20Keyser%20to%20Committee%20Investigators%20-%20Ford%20Allegations.pdf

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2018-09-18%20Smyth%20to%20Judiciary%20Committee%20-%20%20Ford%20Allegations.pdf

[suchmoon]

Good luck with that!

Good luck with what? Nothing in these statements prevents these people from answering additional questions. Mark Judge has already said he will do just that - cooperate with the FBI.

[TECSHARE]

So... after all this whining about delays it turns out that the objection to the FBI investigation was totally pointless.

You must be crazy because if I remember correctly the right wing nut jobs in here told us the FBI DOES NOT GET INVOLVED BECAUSE NO CRIME... Where are they now haha.

Sorry, was busy having a life. Also my original point is still just as relevant. Even those alt-right nazi extremists at The Washington Post agree.

Why Maryland police aren’t investigating the Kavanaugh allegations

"Here’s why:

1. Hogan’s spokeswoman said last week that the governor “has never used the state police to pursue investigations at his personal whim. That is a very dangerous and slippery slope.”

So while Democratic state lawmakers have asked Hogan to initiate an investigation within Maryland, he is not planning to do so. Instead, he is calling for an unspecified independent investigator, who would presumably report to federal officials.

The Maryland State Police says its policy is to investigate allegations only when a criminal complaint has been filed; Ford has not filed a criminal complaint.

If such a complaint were filed, the state police would turn it over to Montgomery County police.



2. Montgomery County police, too, note that no accuser of Kavanaugh’s has come forward to request a police investigation..."

The FBI along with pretty much every branch of law enforcement has policies against just starting investigations because people demand it, a criminal complaint is required. This ensures that in the event some one does cause another's rights to be violated with an investigation based on false claims, they can be held liable. Of course this is the exact reason none of them will file charges. Also, FYI, it does not have to be within the statute of limitations for her to file a report.

aaand a cherry on top for you:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoSXQEfBd6E

[Flying Hellfish]

The FBI along with pretty much every branch of law enforcement has policies against just starting investigations because people demand it, a criminal complaint is required.

What a shame it is that the FBI is not able to do some kind of investigation into a persons background who's applying for a sensitive federal job.

Maybe one day the American people will wise up and mandate the FBI take on this role because with out alleging a crime the FBI would never be able to find out if a federal employee was say a commy or terrorist in hiding.  Come to think of it there must be some high level operatives from bad actors in some very high government positions since they couldn't have had their backgrounds investigated without someone alleging a crime.  Damn you guys better get on that shit before it gets out of hand...

BTW your President ORDERED the FBI to do a supplemental background check (investigation) on this nom, just like many Presidents have done many times in the past because new information...