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Author Topic: Why is the Occupy movement not immediately embracing bitcoin?  (Read 15962 times)
JeffK
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October 15, 2011, 10:18:46 PM
 #161

So, regarding education, be careful what you wish for.

It wears off.  In certain cases at least.  I remember how superior I felt to my anti-globalization friends in the mid-90's because I understood the efficiencies of making trade curves line up and all that.  IIRC, I had just come out of macro-econ class of several hundred with the top score (albeit in a 100 level class at a low end university.)  In fact I had learned nothing more than what the tiny minority of wealthy people wanted me to learn regarding capital and currency and such.  I wish to God that I was still in touch with those friends to I could apologize.  Whether they understood capital better than I at that point I'll never know, but 15 years later I see that their instincts, at least, were much better than those which I had implanted in me in school.

It's not that I understand enough to believe this system and my beliefs are better, it's that I understand enough to know that the way things are going with globalization, it's pretty much inevitable. It's not about capital as it is about private contracts, as well as the ability to compete around the world and no longer be tied down to a specific geographical region.

Sounds to me like you are guzzling down the cool-aid so I have every expectation that you'll finish up that graduate degree.

Does your curriculum cover trade considerations in times of war?  Or is war thought to be a novelty of history which is impossible in a form involving two powerful belligerents in these modern times?  Or is it assumed that Oceana, Eurasia, and Eastasia will be large enough to allow the 'contract' principles you are learning about operate within?


Only a Socialist deals in externalities
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October 15, 2011, 10:21:23 PM
 #162

Quit trying to annoy the Occupy Wall Street movement, which is important, with a dying pyramid scheme that has about three months of life left.

I see nothing whatsoever wrong with stirring people's imagination with alternate forms of currency generally.  I am sure that at least a fraction of these people have contemplated alternate money systems, and are aware of various efforts, most of which have failed.

The technical hurdles of decentralizing the currency in the way that Satoshi has done, and the skill with which he has done it are actually quite novel,  impressive and interesting.  If that inspires and interest people, what's the harm?

I can say for sure that if I were a protester who had never heard of Bitcoin, I would be very thankful to whoever took the time to inform me of it.


Nagle only posts to elicit an emotional response. You are better off ignoring him than engaging in conversation with him.

In instances like this I have no expectation of, or particular interest in, engaging the author in anything.  Lotsa people know how Nagle is, but others not.  I simply aim to provide an alternate view.  Sometimes it is even a viewpoint which I have some belief in (as in this case.)

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October 15, 2011, 10:29:22 PM
 #163

There would be no point in selling your whitelisted account as you would no longer be able to buy so much as a pack of gum in a legitimate business without one.

Perhaps. But today one can purchase items without paying tax in so many different ways that I can't begin to count them, so I think you are ignoring reality on this one. Cheers.

There is no such thing as perfect enforcement, but Bitcoin provides tools to make it much easier to detect evasion in the form of the transaction log.  If an address is receiving a large amount of coins a certain percentage should be leaving in tax.  Random checks could be entirely automated against a formula that could look for suspicious activity to be passed on to a human investigator to check.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 15, 2011, 11:05:31 PM
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There would be no point in selling your whitelisted account as you would no longer be able to buy so much as a pack of gum in a legitimate business without one.

Perhaps. But today one can purchase items without paying tax in so many different ways that I can't begin to count them, so I think you are ignoring reality on this one. Cheers.

There is no such thing as perfect enforcement, but Bitcoin provides tools to make it much easier to detect evasion in the form of the transaction log.  If an address is receiving a large amount of coins a certain percentage should be leaving in tax.  Random checks could be entirely automated against a formula that could look for suspicious activity to be passed on to a human investigator to check.

You're still delusional if you think linking a Bitcoin address to a human being is easier than linking a bank account to one.
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October 15, 2011, 11:20:32 PM
 #165

There would be no point in selling your whitelisted account as you would no longer be able to buy so much as a pack of gum in a legitimate business without one.

Perhaps. But today one can purchase items without paying tax in so many different ways that I can't begin to count them, so I think you are ignoring reality on this one. Cheers.

There is no such thing as perfect enforcement, but Bitcoin provides tools to make it much easier to detect evasion in the form of the transaction log.  If an address is receiving a large amount of coins a certain percentage should be leaving in tax.  Random checks could be entirely automated against a formula that could look for suspicious activity to be passed on to a human investigator to check.

You're still delusional if you think linking a Bitcoin address to a human being is easier than linking a bank account to one.

Of course it's easier.  You can take cash out of the bank and engage in anonymous transactions.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 15, 2011, 11:55:20 PM
 #166

most people don't even know about it
i approached a marijuana seeds company who had never heard of bitcoin who basically pioneered alternative internet payments in my area, now they're using it

if you have a bitcoin service print out some flyers and pass them out, then dispatch a friend to sell bitcoins on the other corner
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October 16, 2011, 12:30:06 AM
 #167

Of course it's easier.  You can take cash out of the bank and engage in anonymous transactions.

So is the use of physical money illegal in your ideal society too? What about barter?

Also, if it's so easy, please explain how to turn a bitcoin address into a human identity.
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October 16, 2011, 12:36:08 AM
 #168

so, I gave it a shot, explaining it to some one who only used word, browser, and email... guess what, they got it. Of course i had to explain what encryption was, what a key pair was, what all that was... but they got it.

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October 16, 2011, 12:55:09 AM
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so, I gave it a shot, explaining it to some one who only used word, browser, and email... guess what, they got it. Of course i had to explain what encryption was, what a key pair was, what all that was... but they got it.


I approached the problem by explaining what a hash was and how after trying enough, one could by chance get a kind of magical hash.

Then that the blockchain (which I referred to a 'ledger') was hashed and distributed around to 'everyone' without a central controlling system.

Both my mother and sister, neither having much computer experience,  were able to understand this and appreciate that solution is plausible and could be fairly resilient.  Neither was interested enough to actually do anything with Bitcoin, but they are also not as interested as I in monetary issues generally.  The current monetary system has been fairly good to most of my family so far and other of life's offerings are more interesting than Bitcoin at this time.

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October 16, 2011, 03:19:57 AM
 #170

Of course it's easier.  You can take cash out of the bank and engage in anonymous transactions.

So is the use of physical money illegal in your ideal society too? What about barter?

Bitcoin is the only legal tender.  There is no fiat currency allowed so as to avoid the manipulation of central banks.

Quote
Also, if it's so easy, please explain how to turn a bitcoin address into a human identity.

I have explained several times that valid addresses will be assigned in much the same way as social security numbers.  Please review my posts before continuing, I can assure you this system sound and your questions have already been addressed.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 16, 2011, 03:21:37 AM
 #171

I have explained several times that valid addresses will be assigned in much the same way as social security numbers.  Please review my posts before continuing, I can assure you this system sound and your questions have already been addressed.

You have not explained how you will track down someone using an invalid address...
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October 16, 2011, 04:45:08 AM
 #172

Quote
So, regarding education, be careful what you wish for.

Was it education that led you to it, or greed?

Honestly? Education. When you learn how the system works, you learn thatthere's really not much you can do about it, and though not guaranteed, the outcome will usually be good in the long run. So, maybe education, and a bit of surrender and hope.

I'd imagine a large number of Harvard grads buy into libertarianism/free-market capitalism, but since Ivy-League education is often costly, you generally see well-off people going there. In our current society, well-off, well-connected, or well-educated people usually benefit the most from free-market capitalism, therefore would support it.

Hm, maybe? I wouldn't know. I don't go to Harvard. Just lucky to have gotten into this school (though busted my butt like crazy to get in there). My parents aren't rich, and I'm paying for the $30k a year or so that it costs pretty much entirely out of my own pocket and through loans.

I think that if everyone was better educated, we'd realize that free-market capitalism often leads to a situation where there are 10 losers for every 1 winner, and we would decide by majority vote that a more socialized society would provide a much more equal society and ensure the most people possible could be content with society's structure.

If everyone was a winner, no one would be. We either have one very skilled and driver winner with 10 not so skilled and risk adverse employee losers, or we have one somewhat lazy welfare recipient with "needs" as a winner, and 10 people working and payi g taxes as losers. I'm all for equality, I just don't think it will work, since it will naturally degenerate to communism or free-market libertalianism over time. Always has.

I'd bet everyone with degrees in Finance is a free-market capitalist, as the lack of regulation our finance system has lets them soak easy money off of labor - why bite the hand that feeds you?
You didn't "learn" something that led you from socialist-democratic principles, you just succumbed to the greedy part of your nature we all have deep down.

Finance doesn't actually suck money off labor. It sucks money off debtors and investors. Human resources sucks money off labor. I don't know if human capital management degrees are free-market capitalists.
Likewise i can say the same about you. You didn't learn something that led you into supporting socialist-democratic principles, you just saw that some people had things you didn't, got jealous, and wanting to have what they have succumbed to your greedy nature. Everything in the world is done for selfish greedy reasons, even if the reason is so that you can feel good and smug about yourself.

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October 16, 2011, 05:08:11 AM
 #173

hurray, voices from the insane libertarianism, and from the insane comunist sides Cheesy can we say /end thread now?

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October 16, 2011, 05:18:55 AM
 #174

hurray, voices from the insane libertarianism, and from the insane comunist sides Cheesy can we say /end thread now?

     <.<  Furries..   Roll Eyes

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October 16, 2011, 05:19:46 AM
 #175

I have explained several times that valid addresses will be assigned in much the same way as social security numbers.  Please review my posts before continuing, I can assure you this system sound and your questions have already been addressed.

You have not explained how you will track down someone using an invalid address...

Apparently it won't matter because no one will accept coins from an invalid address for fear of not being able to spend those coins. Everyone must check with the government before any transaction is made.

I, personally, will do whatever it takes to subvert this system (as if it could get this far, although from the conversations I've had lately one never knows...). I'm sure the rest of the world will accept it without question.

The system would be the result of Democratic change in the United States as people rise up and demand Bitcoin and the fair wealth distribution that represents the ultimate power of this new electronic commodity.  You would be free to leave for some country still dependent on fake fiat currency if you do not like the system, but the revolutions there won't be far behind once they see the American economy dominate with the power of Bitcoin.

Checking with the government is a strange way to put it, the whitelist will be public information.  Vendors will check it for the same reason they check dollar bills to make sure they aren't counterfeit.  

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 16, 2011, 05:30:39 AM
 #176

The system would be the result of Democratic change in the United States as people rise up and demand Bitcoin and the fair wealth distribution that represents the ultimate power of this new electronic commodity.  You would be free to leave for some country still dependent on fake fiat currency if you do not like the system, but the revolutions there won't be far behind once they see the American economy dominate with the power of Bitcoin.

Checking with the government is a strange way to put it, the whitelist will be public information.  Vendors will check it for the same reason they check dollar bills to make sure they aren't counterfeit.  

I think your view of what people want is severely distorted by what you want.

Take a step back and ask yourself if people really want to give up one financial dictator for one that is even more dictatorial.
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October 16, 2011, 05:33:22 AM
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The system would be the result of Democratic change in the United States as people rise up and demand Bitcoin and the fair wealth distribution that represents the ultimate power of this new electronic commodity.  You would be free to leave for some country still dependent on fake fiat currency if you do not like the system, but the revolutions there won't be far behind once they see the American economy dominate with the power of Bitcoin.

Checking with the government is a strange way to put it, the whitelist will be public information.  Vendors will check it for the same reason they check dollar bills to make sure they aren't counterfeit.  

I think your view of what people want is severely distorted by what you want.

Take a step back and ask yourself if people really want to give up one financial dictator for one that is even more dictatorial.

The only dictation here is that money cannot be used for illegal purposes (we already have that) and that Bitcoin will be the money.  The fact that it is better at preventing illegal activity is just a bonus, the technological power of Bitcoin is the real star here, forced redistribution will only have to happen at the start if the wealthy try to cheat the system again.

The benefits of Bitcoin are so obvious there is no doubt people will soon want to adopt at as their currency.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 16, 2011, 05:42:10 AM
 #178

The only dictation here is that money cannot be used for illegal purposes (we already have that) and that Bitcoin will be the money.  The fact that it is better at preventing illegal activity is just a bonus, the technological power of Bitcoin is the real star here, forced redistribution will only have to happen at the start if the wealthy try to cheat the system again.

The benefits of Bitcoin are so obvious there is no doubt people will soon want to adopt at as their currency.

The wealthy can only cheat the system because the system is designed to be cheated. Your system will be no different.

Get rid of the system, and you get rid of the problem. Institutionalized violence will never be a solution to the problem of violence!
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October 16, 2011, 05:49:49 AM
 #179

The only dictation here is that money cannot be used for illegal purposes (we already have that) and that Bitcoin will be the money.  The fact that it is better at preventing illegal activity is just a bonus, the technological power of Bitcoin is the real star here, forced redistribution will only have to happen at the start if the wealthy try to cheat the system again.

The benefits of Bitcoin are so obvious there is no doubt people will soon want to adopt at as their currency.

The wealthy can only cheat the system because the system is designed to be cheated. Your system will be no different.

Get rid of the system, and you get rid of the problem. Institutionalized violence will never be a solution to the problem of violence!

The system is irrelevant if you allow the wealthy to take their massive wealth and power advantage into the new system.  Bitcoin cannot be cheated and all my system does is use the tools Bitcoin provides to implement and maintain that level playing field.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 16, 2011, 06:05:27 AM
 #180

The only dictation here is that money cannot be used for illegal purposes (we already have that) and that Bitcoin will be the money.  

The problem is you ignore history and reality. Prohibition is a failure. It only works at providing criminals a means to earn money.

Not with properly monitored Bitcoin.  We aren't ignoring history with Bitcoin, we are making it.  With the transaction log and personally identified addresses instead of totally anonymous cash it becomes near impossible to hide illegal activity.  Of course no illegal activity can be wiped out 100%, but with Bitcoin the black market would fall from the massive torrent it is today to a tiny, irrelevant drip which would finally make the problem of a manageable proportion for traditional law enforcement to handle.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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