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Author Topic: Why is the Occupy movement not immediately embracing bitcoin?  (Read 16002 times)
Richy_T
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October 11, 2012, 12:41:06 AM
 #241

I have been trying to promote bitcoin a bit on facebook and other pages for the 15th october global protest...

Isn't what the protesters want, exactly down to almost the tiniest detail, what bitcoin will offer?

Or do they just want to protest?

Does anyone have tips on how to best communicate bitcoin when talking to occupy protesters?


Neither Apple nor Starbucks accept Bitcoin as of yet.

(Edit: Sorry if that's already been done. I didn't realize this was a 13 page necro-thread)

(Edit2: My salute to Desolator)

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October 11, 2012, 01:02:02 AM
 #242


That's not exactly what Freicoin intends to do. Their goal is for Bitcoin to remain the long-term store of value, while Freicoin becomes the high-velocity everyday currency. Even poor people could exchange effortlessly back and forth because they're both cryptocurrencies.

No poor people cannot effectively change small amounts between crypto currencies because even with crypto currencies minimum fees and limits can cripple them. I actually ran into the following situation yesterday. I received 10 NMC from a mining pool and decided to sell them on BTC-E for BTC to produce a grand total of 0.042 BTC. When it came to withdraw the BTC I find that there is a minimum of 0.1 BTC for a withdrawal amount and a fee of 0.01 BTC. This is not intended as a criticism of BTC-E in any way as there are many valid reasons an exchange to do this but rather to illustrate how even a very small minimum and fee can hurt the very poor. To put this into perspective the daily GDP per capita in Somalia or Burundi works out to 0.0457 BTC (based on an annual 200USD per capita GDP and a BTC/USD rate of 12). This means that a significant proportion of the population in Somalia or Burundi earn way less.

"Why would I ever use Freicoin, then?" everyone asks. The theory is that loans would be easier to get in Freicoin because of its interest rate. I'm personally not 100% convinced that these loans are desirable, so the Freicoin forum would probably be more inclined than I to debate its economics. I say we just do an experiment.

So if one believes that demurrage is a good idea, they can put their money where their mouth is. Freicoin will either confirm or disprove the merits of demurrage, and IMHO that's better than arguing until we're blue in the face.

The issue here is one of perception (image) vs reality (substance). The perception is that a demurrage currency (Freicoin) favors the poor over the rich while a deflationary currency (Bitcoin) favors the rich over the poor. After all the rich have more money than the poor. The reality is the exact opposite. Bitcoin actually favors the poor while Freicoin favors the rich. Unfortunately we live in an age where image more often than not trumps substance so it is not surprising at all that the Occupy Movement would come up with Freicoin and be skeptical towards Bitcoin.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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October 11, 2012, 07:58:27 AM
 #243


That's not exactly what Freicoin intends to do. Their goal is for Bitcoin to remain the long-term store of value, while Freicoin becomes the high-velocity everyday currency. Even poor people could exchange effortlessly back and forth because they're both cryptocurrencies.

No poor people cannot effectively change small amounts between crypto currencies because even with crypto currencies minimum fees and limits can cripple them. I actually ran into the following situation yesterday. I received 10 NMC from a mining pool and decided to sell them on BTC-E for BTC to produce a grand total of 0.042 BTC. When it came to withdraw the BTC I find that there is a minimum of 0.1 BTC for a withdrawal amount and a fee of 0.01 BTC.

What is your benchmark? You are talking about $1. That is not a lot of money anywhere and is not crippling anyone - a device capable of running Bitcoin is still in the order of $50.

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October 11, 2012, 03:35:42 PM
 #244

What is your benchmark? You are talking about $1. That is not a lot of money anywhere and is not crippling anyone - a device capable of running Bitcoin is still in the order of $50.

Right. So only well-to-do merchants can afford such a device, and folk limited to brainwallets and earning 0.0457 BTC a day might well find a cheaper blockchain based currency, with its presumably lower fees, more suitable than bitcoin for their needs.

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October 11, 2012, 04:42:45 PM
 #245

What is your benchmark? You are talking about $1. That is not a lot of money anywhere and is not crippling anyone - a device capable of running Bitcoin is still in the order of $50.

Right. So only well-to-do merchants can afford such a device, and folk limited to brainwallets and earning 0.0457 BTC a day might well find a cheaper blockchain based currency, with its presumably lower fees, more suitable than bitcoin for their needs.

-MarkM-




$4, runs java. You'd maybe need a public/shared terminal and there may be security implications but there are options out there.

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October 12, 2012, 12:35:48 AM
 #246

What is your benchmark? You are talking about $1. That is not a lot of money anywhere and is not crippling anyone - a device capable of running Bitcoin is still in the order of $50.

Right. So only well-to-do merchants can afford such a device, and folk limited to brainwallets and earning 0.0457 BTC a day might well find a cheaper blockchain based currency, with its presumably lower fees, more suitable than bitcoin for their needs.

-MarkM-


The fees and limits I mentioned arise only because of suggestion of using Bitcoin in conjunction with another crypto-currency such as Freicoin requiring the trading between crypto-currencies. If one sticks to only Bitcoin then the poorest of the poor can use it in an extremely cost effective manner.

As for devices to run bitcoind for free or very close to free there are all sorts of options including the many perfectly good computers that are discarded or "recycled" every day because of problems with Microsoft Windows. Ditch Windows, install GNU/Linux and give it a way to a needy person. This has the added benefit of addressing the growing environmental problem of e-waste.

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October 12, 2012, 12:54:48 AM
 #247

The answer is simple: they have their own coin.  They don't believe in store of value or permanent reward for work.   They have their own demurage currency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) called
Freicoin: Bitcoin with demurrage
. Basically, money not spent decreases in value to encourage spending and decrease people saving money and getting rich.

ADDENDUM: didn't realize this thread started october 12, last year!

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October 12, 2012, 12:55:50 AM
 #248

The answer is simple: they have their own coin.  They don't believe in store of value or permanent reward for work.   They have their own demurage currency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) called
Freicoin: Bitcoin with demurrage
. Basically, money not spent decreases in value to encourage spending and decrease people saving money and getting rich.

And nobody will actually use it.

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October 12, 2012, 01:07:20 AM
 #249

Im patiently waiting for someone to release something that users of those dirt cheap nokia phones can use.

You mean something like Coinapult? http://coinapult.com/sms-wallet

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October 12, 2012, 01:12:13 AM
 #250

Hey, I want my name on it  Tongue

I'm thinking it could have a QR code. Or maybe be totally custom. Of course, QR code would imply preloaded with a key.

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October 12, 2012, 01:14:41 AM
 #251

Im patiently waiting for someone to release something that users of those dirt cheap nokia phones can use.

You mean something like Coinapult? http://coinapult.com/sms-wallet
I think he means Brew?

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October 12, 2012, 08:04:26 PM
 #252

I think the big win will be going low tech and enabling developing countries.

I am on the same page. Mobile payments (SMS) are already big in countries like India. BTC could fly if smartphones and mobile Internet massively penetrate developing countries.

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October 13, 2012, 03:04:42 PM
 #253

Because they are broke. People that are employed do not have time to protest.  Tongue

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October 17, 2012, 02:23:20 PM
 #254

Because they are broke. People that are employed do not have time to protest.  Tongue

That's possibly the best explanation.  Which gives me an idea for a poll.
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January 20, 2013, 10:30:58 PM
 #255

The issue here is one of perception (image) vs reality (substance). The perception is that a demurrage currency (Freicoin) favors the poor over the rich while a deflationary currency (Bitcoin) favors the rich over the poor. After all the rich have more money than the poor. The reality is the exact opposite. Bitcoin actually favors the poor while Freicoin favors the rich. Unfortunately we live in an age where image more often than not trumps substance so it is not surprising at all that the Occupy Movement would come up with Freicoin and be skeptical towards Bitcoin.

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January 20, 2013, 10:54:03 PM
 #256

The issue here is one of perception (image) vs reality (substance). The perception is that a demurrage currency (Freicoin) favors the poor over the rich while a deflationary currency (Bitcoin) favors the rich over the poor. After all the rich have more money than the poor. The reality is the exact opposite. Bitcoin actually favors the poor while Freicoin favors the rich. Unfortunately we live in an age where image more often than not trumps substance so it is not surprising at all that the Occupy Movement would come up with Freicoin and be skeptical towards Bitcoin.
+1

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January 20, 2013, 11:10:15 PM
 #257

The issue here is one of perception (image) vs reality (substance). The perception is that a demurrage currency (Freicoin) favors the poor over the rich while a deflationary currency (Bitcoin) favors the rich over the poor. After all the rich have more money than the poor. The reality is the exact opposite. Bitcoin actually favors the poor while Freicoin favors the rich. Unfortunately we live in an age where image more often than not trumps substance so it is not surprising at all that the Occupy Movement would come up with Freicoin and be skeptical towards Bitcoin.

To be demonstrated.

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January 20, 2013, 11:15:28 PM
 #258

Has anyone mentioned that occupiers tend to be statists (or at least try to influence government) and bitcoiners tend to be libertarians (or at least distrustful of government)?

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January 21, 2013, 09:21:21 AM
 #259

Occupy has all kinds of people, from statist leftists who believe only more regulation can help, to left-anarchists and libertarian socialists who want no state, to market libertarians and Ron Paul folks.

Also Freicoin has not much to do with that movement. In Germany, Silvio Gesell and his idea of demurrage money is actually considered rather reactionary and right-wing.

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